Skeptics answer to ancient arcitectual mysteries - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Rome, Greece, Egypt & other ancient history (c 4000 BCE - 476 CE) and pre-history.
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#13730808
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this rocks are cut with great precision, even using modern stone cutting tech it would take a Mars trip type effort to build.

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This Oblisk is thought to wiegh over 1000 tons.

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Baalbek monolit


In 1978 the Japanese corporation, Nippon attempted to build a 60 foot high pyramid using primitive building techniques (similar to the techniques assumed by mainstream Egyptologists, which I personally do not believe*). They were to build it from one blocks of limestone quarried from the same site used by The Great Pyramid builders quarried. Once built the Japanese were told by Egyptian authorities to dismantle it and return the site to its original state.
From the start they struggled with using old and archaic technology and techniques - even transporting the blocks across the River Nile proved too difficult so eventually they were ferried across by steamboat. Teams of 100 men attempted to move the stones over the ground but failed completely. Once again modern vehicles had to be used to move the stones but once at the site could not be lifted in to place. In the end they used a crane and helicopter to position the blocks.



Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Did_the_Japan ... z1OywUVQ22


To the ancient advanced civilization skeptics, how do you explain their construction and movement? Using only copper,stone and bronze tools? Please explain.
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By Fasces
#13734112
If you named specific incidents, I am sure you would have more luck deriving answers.
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By Dagoth Ur
#13734117
Experience + techniques we've lost account for any mystery in the construction of these ancient wonders. Plus motivation of course. I mean if we had a God-King to spur us on we'd be building even more astounding wonders.

Oxymoron wrote:even using modern stone cutting tech it would take a Mars trip type effort to build.


Our stone cutting technology is not necessarily superior to that of ancient humans.
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By Oxymoron
#13734118
Are you serious?

They supposedly used copper and bronze, we have diamond blades powered by electricity. you dont think that is superior?
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By Dagoth Ur
#13734120
You don't know the full extent of Ancient stone-cutting tech. Neither do I but they were able to do it so they had some way.
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By Takkon
#13734148
For centuries, people have theorized how the great pyramids were built. Some have suggested that they must have been constructed by extraterrestrials, while others believe the Egyptians possessed a technology that has been lost through the ages.

But the process of building pyramids, while complicated, was not as colossal an undertaking as many of us believe, Redford says. Estimates suggest that between 20,000 and 30,000 laborers were needed to build the Great Pyramid at Giza in less than 23 years. By comparison, Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris took almost 200 years to complete.

According to Redford, pharaohs traditionally began building their pyramids as soon as they took the throne. The pharaoh would first establish a committee composed of an overseer of construction, a chief engineer and an architect. The pyramids were usually placed on the western side of the Nile because the pharaoh's soul was meant to join with the sun disc during its descent before continuing with the sun in its eternal round. Added Redford, the two deciding factors when choosing a building site were its orientation to the western horizon where the sun set and the proximity to Memphis, the central city of ancient Egypt.

The cores of the pyramids were often composed of local limestone, said Redford. Finer quality limestone composed the outer layer of the pyramids, giving them a white sheen that could be seen from miles away. The capstone was usually made of granite, basalt, or another very hard stone and could be plated with gold, silver or electrum, an alloy of gold and silver, and would also be highly reflective in the bright sun.

Said Redford, the image most people have of slaves being forced to build the pyramids against their will is incorrect. "The concept of slavery is a very complicated problem in ancient Egypt," he noted, "because the legal aspects of indentured servitude and slavery were very complicated." The peasants who worked on the pyramids were given tax breaks and were taken to 'pyramid cities' where they were given shelter, food and clothing, he noted.

According to Redford, ancient Egyptian quarrying methods -- the processes for cutting and removing stone -- are still being studied. Scholars have found evidence that copper chisels were using for quarrying sandstone and limestone, for example, but harder stones such as granite and diorite would have required stronger materials, said Redford. Dolerite, a hard, black igneous rock, was used in the quarries of Aswan to remove granite.

During excavation, massive dolerite "pounders" were used to pulverize the stone around the edge of the granite block that needed to be extracted. According to Redford, 60 to 70 men would pound out the stone. At the bottom, they rammed wooden pegs into slots they had cut, and filled the slots with water. The pegs would expand, splitting the stone, and the block was then slid down onto a waiting boat.

Teams of oxen or manpower were used to drag the stones on a prepared slipway that was lubricated with oil. Said Redford, a scene from a 19th century B.C. tomb in Middle Egypt depicts "an alabaster statue 20 feet high pulled by 173 men on four ropes with a man lubricating the slipway as the pulling went on."

Once the stones were at the construction site, ramps were built to get them into place on the pyramid, said Redford. These ramps were made of mud brick and coated with chips of plaster to harden the surface. "If they consistently raised the ramp course by course as the teams dragged their blocks up, they could have gotten them into place fairly easily," he noted. At least one such ramp still exists, he said.

When answering to skepticism about how such heavy stones could have been moved without machinery, Redford says, "I usually show the skeptic a picture of 20 of my workers at an archaeological dig site pulling up a two-and-a-half ton granite block." He added, "I know it's possible because I was on the ropes too."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 104302.htm
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Pictured above is the Notre Dame cathedral. Pictured below is the pyramid at giza. As far as what is more complicated, I'd definitely have to give that to the cathedral. Much more pristine, much more aesthetically pleasing, and much much more complicated to build.
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Now, note the fact that 20-30k workers were used, and it took 23 years. Also note that the OP says that they failed to move the stones over the ground, which obviously means that they weren't using the correct techniques. It is physically possible to move those stones, it has been demonstrated many times before, so one has to question whether or not Nippon actually had all their research squared away. You can't say that something is impossible simply because you didn't do it correctly.

I also posted that comparison to show the difference between modern architecture and Egyptians pyramids. While they are certainly breathtaking, they are also fairly simplistic, and the shape and the techniques used were well-planned, not unintentional. They knew what they were building, how to build it, and the best way to go about doing it to complete the task in a fairly short amount of time. This involved a great deal of man-power and forethought. The pyramid shape is no accident, the best way to go about building something that big without modern materials and our architectural advancements is to make the bottom really solid. And because it needed to be so big, they started at the bottom and the shape gradually ascends up to a point, and this would have taken quite a lot of time.

If they really had assistance, why wouldn't they use steel beams and concrete instead of granite and limestone? Modern techniques allow us to build up pretty damn far, and much much quicker, without as many workers. For instance, the sears tower took 1500 workers to complete, only took 3 years to finish, and is about 1500 feet tall. Whereas the pyramid at giza is about 1/3 as tall, took 15 times the amount of workers and 7.5 times the amount of years to finish.

The pyramids are an impressive feat of engineering. Do they rival modern architectural techniques? Absolutely not.

Source of information on the Sears tower comes from the website:

Chicago tribune wrote:Today's the day--
Sears Tower becomes tallest of the tall
(c) Chicago Tribune, May 3, 1973

With its topping out today, Chicago's Sears Tower will become the world's tallest building towering above other famous skyscrapers around the world. Ironworkers will bolt the last steel girder into place atop the 100-story, 1,454-foot structure today. More than 1,500 men have worked on the building since construction began in 1970. The building which is scheduled for completion next year, will provide more more than 4.4 million square feet of office space and will have cost more than $150 million.

http://www.searstower.org/articles.html
User avatar
By U184
#13734180
This type of stone work was done a lot like flint knapping, done with a stone hammer and bronze chisels. Image

Most of the time the stones were carved out of the Earth or in/near quarries. (Like the Sphinx) Several hundred carvers were used for many years to do each project. Many times cities sprang up around these projects, as the support labor ended up with many of 1000's of workers, making tools, bread, etc.

Egyptians had a long history of such projects and one can see many of their early failed attempts. Also the makers drawings showing the mathematics used, has been found inside the pyramids.


Some areas in Peru have interesting stone buildings that are unexplained though. Tiahuanaco, Peru has many unknown structures, the one in particular that I am thinking of is of very hard stone that was carved with small holes, "drilled" with mathematical precision. They also used a double T shaped insert in the stone, set the stone and then melted crude steel into the hole so that an internal solid brace was formed.

It has been speculated that this job would need modern tools to be done. Then again we only recently learned the secrets of cement that sets under water, a technique that the Romans used often.

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By Takkon
#13734181
Chances are that many "mysteries" of architecture are just unfamiliarity with the effects of specific tools that would have been available at the time.
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By Takkon
#13734190
I know, I was agreeing with you. :)

Actually a very interesting and informative post, I didn't really have much to add.
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By U184
#13734196
Ancient cultures is a subject that I have a large interest in. (with a South American/Pacific focus)
I have done several threads on the subject and have done some field work as well. Currently I am working on a paper/book (depends on what is cut) with some colleagues in regards to my most recent outing.
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By Oxymoron
#13734432
In my opinion using the opucum razor theory or what ever it is called, the simplest explanation is usually the right one.


So should we believe that people using primitive tools, used some super mysterious techniques to build the structures?

Or should we believe that ancient people were as advanced if not more so in this type of building, if not all together more advanced then we give them credit for.
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By U184
#13734440
Occam's razor

So should we believe that people using primitive tools, used some super mysterious techniques to build the structures?

Or should we believe that ancient people were as advanced if not more so in this type of building, if not all together more advanced then we give them credit for.
They did use "some super mysterious techniques" to build their structures...they just also happened to be more advanced than we give them credit for.
By Pants-of-dog
#13734443
What is so mysterious about straight lines, carved stone, meticulous masonry and scaffolding made of wood and earth?
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By Oxymoron
#13734446
Straight lines, percision, quantity, wieght like I said using modern daimond bladed electrical saws, cranes, and trucks this kind of construction would be immenesly difficult, time constraining, and immence resources. How could people using bronze,copper, and stone and nothing but ropes be able to move align,cut these structures.
By Pants-of-dog
#13734462
Oxymoron wrote:Straight lines, percision, quantity, wieght like I said using modern daimond bladed electrical saws, cranes, and trucks this kind of construction would be immenesly difficult, time constraining, and immence resources. How could people using bronze,copper, and stone and nothing but ropes be able to move align,cut these structures.


Using stone age technology and lots of time and human labour.

You can cut any stone with a harder stone, or if you do not have a harder stone, you weaken the stone where you want to carve it using methods available to anyone who can start a fire. Cutting a very straight line in hard stone simply takes time and patience, no matter how primitive your tools are.

Aligning them is also easy. Take a piece of string or sinew and stretch it. Congratulations, you have now made a straightedge out of stone age technology. Tie a rock to one end. Now you have a plumb bob. Use these two tools to align what you want how you want.

Moving large pieces of stone is also not impossible. There is a youtube video of some middle aged fat guy who used stone age tech to make some stone moving machines. He uses them to move stones many times his weight by himself.
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By Oxymoron
#13734502
ok you are just blabbering, without any knowledge.
By Pants-of-dog
#13734505
Oxymoron wrote:ok you are just blabbering, without any knowledge.


Feel free to point where I am incorrect or where there is a gap in my knowledge.
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By U184
#13734506
Pants-of-dog,

We are not talking about a few times some fat guys weight, the stones in question are 15 to 30 tons. As you ca see from the above photo they also used metal structuring, not unlike todays tech and drilled small holes deeply into stone. There are many accounts of tech used long ago that we do not have the ability to do today, Greek fire and underwater cement just to name two.

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