[Oxymoron]

Those mythological images do not disprove the main accounts of the Torah.

[Xel]

If you can't take the Bible literally (except in places where its obviously not literal maybe) it turns to mush. If the Bible has myth in it, that means it reports events that didn't actually happen. This means it is not God's perfect and never wrong word. You can interpret it all kinds of ways and that leaves no basis for believing in the Biblical god over others.

[Oxymoron]

If the Bible has myth in it, that means it reports events that didn't actually happen. This means it is not God's perfect and never wrong word. You can interpret it all kinds of ways and that leaves no basis for believing in the Biblical god over others.

False the myths of Gilgamesh had alot of factual data, including locations of cities that were later found using satelites in the desert among other things.You cannot say Moses didnt exist because its impossible to part the Red Sea, but you fail to understand the style of writing used back then. Same goes for Indian history which is also heavily based on oral accounts which were later written down.

[Donna]

As with all myths, it's the moral of the story that counts, not necessarily its historicity.

[Oxymoron]

Both count Donald both.

[War Angel]

Meh. Oral tradition passed down through hundreds of years across geo-political-ethnic boundaries and written down by a caste of priests in a different language and translated through a half dozen more *must* be accurate.

It was written in Hebrew and Aramaic. We read it as such. No translation, mistranslations or anything of the sort.

"Yam Suf" is often mistranslated as "Red Sea" when it actually means "sea of reeds." Obviously, then, it would have been marshland, and not and actual span of ocean.

Correct. No-where in Hebrew scriptures does it say 'RED sea', but instead, what you've said. It is quite plausible, given the context.

Let's review the historical facts:

1) Jews moved to Egypt.
2) Jews stayed in Egypt.
3) Jews left Egypt after several generations - after about 200+ Years.
4) There are currently no signs of any cataclysm, but there ARE signs of an exodus. It is not even clear if those were Hebrews\Israelis.

These are the FACTS. Now, I don't take the Passover legend\myth\whatever as fact, like I don't take many parts of the bible as fact. I don't think it matters - Pesach\Passover as a CONCEPT exists today in the Jewish mindset, and that's what matters. Maybe only 20% of is history, maybe 70%, some parts of it are clearly fiction, and that's alright with me.

[Zyx]

Are there any artifacts that suggest that the Jews did stay in Egypt?

Also, where is this idea of them moving?

If what MB. put was true, Israel was conquered.

[Zagadka]

Those mythological images do not disprove the main accounts of the Torah.

... which mainly leaves aforementioned ethnic cleansing.

It was written in Hebrew and Aramaic. We read it as such. No translation, mistranslations or anything of the sort.

Written in. Around 600-400 BCE. However, almost all accounts are oral tradition and happen before 900 BCE, many as far back as 2500 BCE, and those certainly not in modern Hebrew or known Aramaic. Almost all European accounts (except for more recent Hebrew translations) are translated through Greek.

It's very silly to claim slavery didn't exist in Egypt.

Well, of course. There were plenty of slaves to many groups of the upper caste, including the Pharaoh and the temple leaders.

The builders of the Pyramids and other Egyptian sites, however, were mostly not slaves.

4) There are currently no signs of any cataclysm, but there ARE signs of an exodus. It is not even clear if those were Hebrews\Israelis.

Connecting modern "Hebrew/Israeli" (obviously not counting the ones from Uzbekistan and such) to a specific tribe of pre-historical ancient wanderers is rather tenuous. So many different groups conquered and re-conquered and were wiped out in modern Israel and Sinai that any modern decedents are pretty much arbitrarily as defined by the Romans.

[Nets]

Sheesh its a holiday, Zyx.

It isn't like we are demanding reparations from Egypt or something.

For the Yids here, all I can is that Zyx would definitely be the Rasha at the Seder, and were he in Egypt he would not be redeemed.

[Zyx]

For the Yids here, all I can is that Zyx would definitely be the Rasha at the Seder, and were he in Egypt he would not be redeemed.

You forgot "amirite."

Seriously, this insider joke hardly makes any sense, although it is peculiarly interesting: if I said more, I'd have said too much.

Sheesh its a holiday, Zyx.

It's kinda backwards to claim being enslaved despite never having been.

[Zagadka]

Yeesh. I feel as much connection to the Chinese slaves who died building the Great Wall, or the countless dead between Muslims and Buddhists in Pakistan/India, or the sacrificial war slaves of the Mesoamericans, or any number of civilizations around the world more numerous and with as great or stupid philosophies and practices as the people of ancient Israel and Egypt.

[MB.]

It's kinda backwards to claim being enslaved despite never having been.

Israeli victim complex that transcends their history and imbues their religion.

[Nets]

Seriously, this insider joke hardly makes any sense: if I said more, I'd have said too much.

How so? It makes perfect sense, as an inside joke.

Also, regarding the OP, yea it likely didn't happen as described (I mean we are talking 3600 years ago here) but my guess is that like most mythology, there is a seed of truth to it. One thing to note is that in Passover, it's not really about your ancestors, its spiritual. You are supposed to pretend that you, personally, were a slave in Egypt and you, personally, were redeemed by god. It's metaphorical.

I'd also add that certain Jewish holidays have obscured origins, for example Hannukah ostensibly details events with the Greeks but was incorporated as a holiday as a passive protest against Roman occupation of Israel.

[War Angel]

Written in. Around 600-400 BCE. However, almost all accounts are oral tradition and happen before 900 BCE, many as far back as 2500 BCE, and those certainly not in modern Hebrew or known Aramaic. Almost all European accounts (except for more recent Hebrew translations) are translated through Greek.

I don't honestly know when the Hagadah was first assembled (it's an amalgam of many texts, some are very old, some only 1,800 years old), but 2,500 BCE sounds way too ancient. The Exodus apparently happened around 3,400-3,600 years ago - not nearly 5,000 years ago...

Anyway, the Hagadah is Hebrew and Aramaic (the newer parts of it, I believe). The translations I've seen were very silly.

Connecting modern "Hebrew/Israeli" (obviously not counting the ones from Uzbekistan and such) to a specific tribe of pre-historical ancient wanderers is rather tenuous

Genetically, it's been proven. More direct connection, however, is somewhat difficult to establish. Connections are like that, you know? They're mostly claimed.

So many different groups conquered and re-conquered and were wiped out in modern Israel and Sinai that any modern decedents are pretty much arbitrarily as defined by the Romans.

There were other civilisations and empires before the Romans - namely the Babylonians, Egyptians, Sumerians and Persians. They too had accounts of the people living under their rule, or beyond their kingdoms. The Hebrews\Israelis\Judeans were one such people.

For the Yids here, all I can is that Zyx would definitely be the Rasha at the Seder, and were he in Egypt he would not be redeemed.

More like 'tam', or 'metumtam'.

It's kinda backwards to claim being enslaved despite never having been.

Jews WERE slaves in Egypt. They just didn't build the motherfucking pyramids - that's just a picture some retarded arsehole drew in the 19th century, and it stuck ever since. They built cities - Pitom and Ramses.

[Douglas]

Thanks, douglas.

You may be surprised to discover that billions of people are still superstitious even in the age of information.

Yes but to make an oh so clever thread debunking certain parts of religion is just lame. I mean really is the level to which you're dropping to? "Judaism may not all be true"........ really? Those lying Jewish bastards. How dare they have a religion which isn't 100% accurate fact. You don't see the Christians telling stories like that now do you? And we can be damn certain everything Islam says is true because they are even willing to admit that their prophet was a child molester.

[Zyx]

The Exodus apparently happened around 3,400-3,600 years ago - not nearly 5,000 years ago...

The thing is that the Exodus apparently did not happen. According to that wikipedia article and I am guessing the Torah, 60,000 able men were transported. There is no evidence of more than 1 million people moving from Israel to Egypt and not at the time claimed in the Torah.

More like 'tam', or 'metumtam'.

I'd really appreciate knowing what these phrases mean. They are interesting.

They built cities - Pitom and Ramses.

I doubt it. All the same, if the Jews were Prisoners of War then this entire story is just hogwash.

You don't see the Christians telling stories like that now do you?

Genius, the Christians and Muslims repeat the stories of the Jews so of course they are all full of shit.

[Zagadka]

I don't honestly know when the Hagadah was first assembled (it's an amalgam of many texts, some are very old, some only 1,800 years old), but 2,500 BCE sounds way too ancient. The Exodus apparently happened around 3,400-3,600 years ago - not nearly 5,000 years ago...

Tell that to the approximate dates of the Egyptian pyramid building.

Genetically, it's been proven.

And where are Palestinians from?

[War Angel]

Tell that to the approximate dates of the Egyptian pyramid building.

But Jews didn't build the Pyramids.

And where are Palestinians from?

They're Arabs - most are (recently) from Egypt and Jordan. Originally, they're probably a mixture of Africans and Arabs from the Saudi peninsula.

The thing is that the Exodus apparently did not happen.

There is no concrete evidence of such an exodus, that is true. But, there are clear signs of these people being in Egypt, and then... not. All this, over a fairly brief period of time, if I be not mistaken.

There is no evidence of more than 1 million people moving from Israel to Egypt and not at the time claimed in the Torah.

There weren't that many Hebrews in Egypt. I'd estimate 80,000 to 200,000 or so.

I doubt it. All the same, if the Jews were Prisoners of War then this entire story is just hogwash.

I haven't a clue. I don't care, either. I was merely pointing out how the Jewish texts never said anything about building pyramids, but cities - which match the dates.

[Zyx]

There weren't that many Hebrews in Egypt. I'd estimate 80,000 to 200,000 or so.

Apologies . . .. I meant more than 100,000.

But, there are clear signs of these people being in Egypt, and then... not.

This is sort of peculiar, I concede. This needs to be investigated. As to the Passover Holiday, it should cease!

[Oxymoron]

As to the Passover Holiday, it should cease!

Yes Bob Marley really sucked so get a haircut.