[vage]

The fashionable view of Mussolini, is that he was simply a grotesque buffoon. Actually, no Jews were deported from Italy until after the fall of Mussolini in July 1943, by which time Mussolini and his Fascists had saved huge numbers of them from the Nazis and local collaborators in places like France and Croatia. Fascism (as distinct from National Socialism) was not intrinsically anti-Semitic.

[Adrien]

Fascism (as distinct from National Socialism) was not intrinsically anti-Semitic.

Absolutely no jews were deported until Hitler 'took control' of Italy, though Mussolini was still keen on sending homosexuals to prison camps I believe, which falls in the same category as sending jews to prison since you're then condemning people not for what they think but for what they are.

Of course, this is linked to the religious nature of Fascism and its ties with the Catholic Church, and not a made-up doctrine like the deportation of Jews in Nazism, but still it's an important point.

And there were also prison camps for political opponents, but that's very 'normal' to find them in any despotical/totalitarian/authoritarian regime.

The fashionable view of Mussolini, is that he was simply a grotesque buffoon.

Well, the fact is that his career wasn't always flamboyant: the reality of the March on Rome is awfully over-hyped, the military campaigns he led were quite disastrous, and his end (both his litteral end, hung by the feet with people spitting at him -in an interestingly hypocritical way- and his political end, with the Republic of Salo) weren't really matching the legend he had built for himself.

[Ideational Ontarian]

Of course, this is linked to the religious nature of Fascism and its ties with the Catholic Church, and not a made-up doctrine like the deportation of Jews in Nazism, but still it's an important point.

Please explain this statement further.

[Adrien]

It can be argued that anti-semitism (or rather anti-Judaism) finds its roots in the catholic religious message, even if it was then captured, in the 19th century mainly, by nationalism and other far-rightist political movements.

But still, the Third Reich wasn't a religious regime stricto sensu, and if it did have a religious aspect it was more leaning towards paganism rather than towards Catholicism. And in Hitler's theories, the argument invoked to chase the Jews wasn't the original religious one but its nationalist heir, describing motherland-less people infiltrating the State and the world of finance, thus causing social problems to the real good German population.

On the other hand, Mussolini's fascism, like Franco's in Spain, used the Catholic church (because the countries were Catholic) as a pillar of the regime, along with the army. And consequently, the Church got to reaffirm its influence on all the issues of society (marriage, homosexuality, church attendance, abortion, etc.), thus restoring the disciplined moral order that the Fascist regime needed and that the Army couldn't achieve on its own: the Army disciplines people in group, but not at home or in their minds.

Both in Fascist Italy and in Franquist Spain, homosexuality and abortion were forbidden, marriage were more than encouraged and restored to a very strict form, public education was merged with religious education, etc.

[Rodion]

I find it rather uncomfortable when Mussolini (or anyone else in history) is judged solely by how they treated Jews. Mussolini didn't send Jews to death camps because claiming them as "his own" was part of his personal power-struggle with Hitler. I'm not sure Hitler knew about this struggle, but Mussolini always looked on Hitler as the "junior" partner and used almost every opportunity to demonstrate that fact. Anyway, all this in no way prevents Mussolini from being a grotesque buffon.

[Bricktop]

1) The fashionable view of Mussolini, is that he was simply a grotesque buffoon.

2) Actually, no Jews were deported from Italy until after the fall of Mussolini in July 1943,

How do these two things relate?

[starman2003]

more leaning towards paganism rather than towards Catholicism

Nazism was essentially a secular ideology based on Darwinism, racial theories and nationalism. And btw, German protestants were more numerous than catholics.

[Batko]

Actually, no Jews were deported from Italy until after the fall of Mussolini in July 1943, by which time Mussolini and his Fascists had saved huge numbers of them from the Nazis and local collaborators in places like France and Croatia.

If you take datas from : THE WAR AGAINST THE JEWS 1933-1945 Dawidowicz, Lucy S. (p.480), 60% of the jews from Yugoslavia were killed during WWII and 26% of those from France, which makes clearly a big difference. On the contrary, the data concerning Italy is 20% of the jewish population killed which is not a very big gap with the French 26%.
If you consider that Italy was occupied by the Nazis only after 1943 and that this occupation concerned only 2/3rd of the Italian territory your statement which remains probably valuable concerning Croatia, seems very exagerated concerning France.

[Adrien]

Nazism was essentially a secular ideology based on Darwinism, racial theories and nationalism. And btw, German protestants were more numerous than catholics.

Well, it can be discussed. Look at all the imagery built by Hitler, it really involves mysticism, the belief in some religious mission, the belief in a greater force. One of the most striking examples of this is certainly the Triumph of the Will in 1934.

[starman2003]

the belief in a greater force

Yeah that was true, which is why I said it was essentially-not entirely-a secular/rational ideology, based on Adolf's understanding, or lack thereof, of history, the races and nature.

[kami321]

Both in Fascist Italy and in Franquist Spain, homosexuality and abortion were forbidden, marriage were more than encouraged and restored to a very strict form, public education was merged with religious education, etc.

Wasn't that the same in Hitler's Germany?
Domestically Germany was also religiously conservative. For example until the total mobilization of 1943-1944 it was firmly believed that women's place is at home and not in factories or at the front.

Although I agree that in catholic fascist countries the church played a much stronger role. To Spain and Italy one could add Croatia, hungary, and Slovakia as examples of such clergic regimes.

[starman2003]

Keeping women at home stemmed from nazi ideology not religion. And public education included nazi not religious indoctrination. Bormann was quoted as saying "national socialism and christianity are irreconciable."

[Adrien]

Yes, absolutely.

Wasn't that the same in Hitler's Germany?

On the issues I mentioned it's true that the results might be the same in Fascist and Nazist regimes, but look at the means: I can't say for sure because I'm not an expert on nazi ideology, but I guess that the promotion of marriage and the forbidding of homosexuality where inserted in a logic of preservation of the Aryan race, a logic of strengthening of this race.

They were not measures conveyed by the Church in agreement with the religious doctrine. In Fascist regimes, they were.

[starman2003]

I think that in fascist Italy, the promotion of marriage and large families, in particular, were intended to further the State's agenda: more people potentially =more troops and national power. Mussolini had to rely on church support but he was I think, an atheist and would've preferred not to have to.

[Einherjar]

The intellectual and cultural origins of the fascist ideology were themselves non- (if not anti-) christian. Mussolini simply required the Catholic Church to seize power. The Church, faced by the on-growing secular socialist party required an alliance with the fascists to guarantee its rights - mutual symbiosis.

[starman2003]

The intellectual and cultural origins of the fascist ideology were themselves non-( if not anti-)christian

I'll say. Fascism was largely a revival of Roman Caesarism, under which holy joes were thrown to the lions. Fascism stood for great wordly ambition and veneration of the Great Man, not some unseen deity. Add to that Darwinism. I can't understand why so many AFM people are christian.

Mussolini simply required the Catholic Church to seize power

What a shame to be beholden to them...

[Einherjar]

I can't understand why so many AFM people are christian.

Even in Europe, most fascists are Christian. They probably believe that Christianity is what constitutes civilization and the only way by which its morality can survive is through a strong state.

Meanwhile, "true" fascists (such as Julius Evola) believe that the anti-life, anti-superman ethics of Christianity are what produced this sorry modern world in the first place. Hence Christianity must be opposed and abolished. I share the latter view.

[starman2003]

Even in Europe, most fascists are Chrisian

That's surprising, considering that Europeans are less religious than Americans. And haven't they heard of Nietzsche?

They probably believe that Christianity is what constitutes civilization

What trash.

are what produced this sorry modern world in the first place

Of course I'm disgusted with judao-christianity and democracy but the modern world is still good for something-phenomenal technical/scientific advances, which promise someday to help overturn its foolish ideologies.

Hence Christianity must be opposed and abolished. I share the latter view.

As do I.

[Einherjar]

That's surprising, considering that Europeans are less religious than Americans. And haven't they heard of Nietzsche?

Europe is basically divided between those atheists/liberals/socialists who reject God but retained the same Christian anti-life morality and the pro-US conservatives who still possess an evangelical zeal after 2000 years.. which is pretty horrible to say the least.

Nietzsche is somewhat stereotyped with nazism, which doesn't do him much justice in our liberal-infested universities.

Of course I'm disgusted with judao-christianity and democracy but the modern world is still good for something-phenomenal technical/scientific advances, which promise someday to help overturn its foolish ideologies.

Do you regard technology and science as mankind's ultimate purpose? I have mixed feelings towards science; I often think that humanity regressed as science progressed.

[starman2003]

Nietzsche opposed antisemitism and shouldn't be identified with nazism. Science and technology are very important but not everything. Values and ideologies should also improve. What use is advanced space technology in a society that emphasizes individual gratification instead of great common causes? More is probably blown on junk food and porn than on space.