[Lokakyy]

the Finn's

Against the Finns?

Just out of curiosity, in the Finnish civil war or in Lapland war?

[Sans Salvador]

That is hilarious. How could they "die in war" if they were shipped to concentration camps?

Well, the most popular idea among the deniers is that they were in the camps and killed by allied bombing.

Also, (and this is relevant to a number of points in your post) deniers tend to claim that 1) there was double counting in the figures of who boarded trains (e.g. people taken from one depot to another and counted at both) and 2) people were taken to places other than concentration camps.

Here is one example. The basic schema is to find examples of a few people who were registered on trains but not camps and act like this suggests that many millions were.

I also agree with most of your objections, I was simply pointing out that what was said in those previous posts alone doesn't prove anything.

[Einherjar]

I strongly disagree with holocaust deniers ("revisionists") but would like to point out a few problems with the above two posts (Eihrenjar hardly even made a prima facie case for his claims so there is no reason for me to refute them).

I can't deny something which was never proved accordingly in the first place.

What kind of proof you require?

Proofs that a genocide (not deaths by disease, maltreatment, malnutrition, etc..) took place.

A) people don't die of typhus or other similar diseases en masse unless they are in a concentration camp and weakened by hard labour and pitiful nutrition.

I did not deny that the prisoners were in concentration camps, malnutritioned and broken by hard labour.

Now, the typhus deaths in the concentration camps are carefully recorded. There is no way so many victims could die to diseases enroute.

I did not claim that 6 million died in the first place. My first question would be : How many jews lived in Europe before WW2?

Your a pig, so the thousands of Jew's who died for the Fatherland in World War 1 did not contribute? My great grandfather fought for Germany , he spent three years in the trenches for Germany just like so many other Jew's did. My ancestors lived in Germany and Russia for more than two centuries, they fought against Napoleon for Germany, they fought against the Russians for Germany, the Poles, the Swiss, the Finn's, the British, the Austrians. They did it with honour, my grandfather always remembered his father telling him that the Fatherland betrayed us. My Great Grandfather, a loyal German since his birth was rounded up and sent to the camps. He worked for 3 long years in the camps as he watched our people exterminated, among them his sister and 4 of his cousins. He and his son (my grandfather) survived, my great grandfather died two years later from the disease and strain the camps had put on him. He was a loyal german, betrayed by the countery he loved. The Nazi's were evil incarnate. I'm not what you would call a very religous man but if there was any Amalakites left on this earth, then Hitler was indeed the last.

Zionists were the first to declare war on Germany and on the Jewish people for ulterior motives. Jewish suffering in Europe was needed to create zionism, the end justifies the means : Straussian ideology at its best.
Unfortunately and disgracefully, loyal german jews such as your grandfather suffered the consequences.

International Jewry declared war on Germany just after the national socialists rose to power. The following words appeared on the London Daily Express:
'The Israelite people of the entire world declare economic and financial war on Germany. The appearance of the Swastika as the symbol of the new Germany revives the old war symbol of the Jews. Fourteen million Jews stand as one body to declare war on Germany. The Jewish wholesale dealer leaves his business, the banker his bank, the shopkeeper his shop, the beggar his miserable hut in order to combine forces in the holy war against Hitler's people.'

As you can notice, the zionists required the Jew to be loyal to his kin and not to his country of birth.
Innocent jews were the ones affected, while these rodents gained estates in Israel.

You can't argue with them because they will never revise their arguments when they are proven false.

I am not arguing. I cannot deny an unproved ontological assertion. I'm just looking for the truth- this is not a subjective, ideological argument.
I will be very grateful if you could give me some proofs and show to me that the holocaust really happened. Scepticism is not very enjoyable.

[Lokakyy]

I realise that you are playing the devils advocate here - but like I said, those who vehemently continue to deny the holocaust are beyond all discussion. You can't argue with them because they will never revise their arguments when they are proven false.

Well, the most popular idea among the deniers is that they were in the camps and killed by allied bombing.

But the allies didn't bomb the camps on that scale. Also, it is impossible that there were so much people on the camps (alive, to be bombed, not gassed). This argument also contradicts with the argument that there is no way of disposing all those corpses. Are you aware how this is explained?

Also, (and this is relevant to a number of points in your post) deniers tend to claim that 1) there was double counting in the figures of who boarded trains (e.g. people taken from one depot to another and counted at both) and 2) people were taken to places other than concentration camps.

I don't buy the dual counting explanation, and neither does the vast majority of the historians. It is not like the military transportations to the Wehrmacht were double counted and they were all performed by Reichsbahnhof. This explanation defies all knowledge about the diligent precision of the German bureaucracy.

Number two is rather funny explanation. Where exactly where they transported, then? To vacation? Does the one who made this argument question the German intelligence of writing the destination section of the transportation form correctly?

I was simply pointing out that what was said in those previous posts alone doesn't prove anything.

I realised that - actually, to holocaust deniers, no proof will ever be enough. They will continue to deny no matter what is the amount of evidence against their shoddy explanations.

[Sans Salvador]

This explanation defies all knowledge about the diligent precision of the German bureaucracy.

Not really. There is no practical problem with counting a person everytime they get on a train. It is a good way to determine how many people are on a train, but may cloud a figure giving the number of all the individuals who were at a train to a camp at any time. Did the German beauracracy who made depot registries have any interest in keeping records about the latter?

[Lokakyy]

Proofs that a genocide (not deaths by disease, maltreatment, malnutrition, etc..) took place.

1) Hundreds of available eye-witness reports of the gassings, shootings and transportations. Hell, there are thousands of eye-witness reports. To repeat, not only jews but also SS guard, Kapos, local civilians, German officials, other inmates etc. etc.

2) A number of reports (hundred or so at least) made by Einsatzkommando groups (for example the Jager Report). Photographic evidence of the operation of Einsatzgruppen.

3) Himmler spoke about destruction of the jews in [url=http://www.holocaust-history.org/himmler-poznan/speech-text.shtml]Poznan[/quote].

4) The Goebbels diaries mention the destruction of Jews many times.

If all the points above are elaborate forgeries, why there is absolutely no information about the vast conspiracy required to manipulate history on a project of that magnitude?

I did not deny that the prisoners were in concentration camps, malnutritioned and broken by hard labour.

I did not claim that 6 million died in the first place. My first question would be : How many jews lived in Europe before WW2?

Congratulations, by dissecting my original argument to pieces you made it appear that it had no sense at all. Read it again and get my point. If you read it carefully, you will note that I wasn't answering your question.

Anyway - the nazi estimate of the amount of European Jews was 11 million when the war started and AFAIK modern researchers agree with that figure being quite accurate.

I am not arguing. I cannot deny an unproved ontological assertion. I'm just looking for the truth- this is not a subjective, ideological argument.

An unproved ontological assertion?
Denial of holocaust against tons and tons of records, eye-witness reports and photographical material is all about being subjective and ideological. Although it is hardly an argument (risking an ad hom), I believe this is proven by the fact that the vast majority of historians researching this probably one of the most popular subjects of human history agree that the gassings did happen. Revisionists are without exception neo-nazis with political interests. And they dare to claim that their opponents have more political bias than they do!

I will be very grateful if you could give me some proofs and show to me that the holocaust really happened. Scepticism is not very enjoyable.

What kind of proof do you actually want? Do you want me to go to Germany & Poland, photograph the documents there and send them to you? Or do you want me to build a time machine so we can go and make a trip to the past to check the gassing facilities of Auschwitz.

[Pongo]

Einherjar

Jewish workers weren't Germans. Besides, the Jewish (zionist) international community 'declared war' on Germany just after the national socialists rose to power before any racial laws were applied.
The german jews could be termed as prisoners of wars.

Zionists were the first to declare war on Germany and on the Jewish people for ulterior motives. Jewish suffering in Europe was needed to create zionism, the end justifies the means : Straussian ideology at its best.
Unfortunately and disgracefully, loyal german jews such as your grandfather suffered the consequences.

International Jewry declared war on Germany just after the national socialists rose to power. The following words appeared on the London Daily Express:
'The Israelite people of the entire world declare economic and financial war on Germany. The appearance of the Swastika as the symbol of the new Germany revives the old war symbol of the Jews. Fourteen million Jews stand as one body to declare war on Germany. The Jewish wholesale dealer leaves his business, the banker his bank, the shopkeeper his shop, the beggar his miserable hut in order to combine forces in the holy war against Hitler's people.'

As you can notice, the zionists required the Jew to be loyal to his kin and not to his country of birth.
Innocent jews were the ones affected, while these rodents gained estates in Israel.

Hitler had nothing against the Zionists. He fought against "international Jewry" Das internationalen Judentum. It's interesting that after the Holocaust people like Einherjar feels ashamed to express anti-semitism, covet it as anti-Zionism.

The Zionists sought to make a deal with Hitler. Both thought Jews amid Gentiles create endless strife and source of friction. The Zionism had long history to seek accommodation with anti-Semitism, they had already dealt with Czarist Russian Government, as a pro-Zionist argument, that they could solve their 'Jewish problems' by encouraging emigration.