[Deicidus]

If Hitler hadnt shot himself, his buddies around him would have probably taken care of it themselves. Officers pannicked when the allies landed in Normandy, how do you think they felt when russians were in Berlin. Hitler had lost his mind way before the war, but locked down in his bunker, he had lost touch with all sense of reality. Reviewing building plans with Speer, giving orders to armies that existed only on paper, planning parties and ''receptions'' in his bunker while artillery shells were pounding the city above him. All his generals, who were still alive and had any kind of experience or leadership skills, were either without ressources or fleeing. He had already dismissed Manstein, his brightest general, the year before.

On his last picture taken, while he was reviewing Hitler Youth's kids, handing them medals, you can see something in his face that you dont see in those taken in the previous years, despair, depression. Of course, after Hitler took power it was Geobbels's job to prevent any such picture to be taken, but a week or so before the war ended, whats the point.

What went threw his mind that day, other than a bullet, nobody can tell. For all we know he could have tought he would resurect in another body and retake germany all over again. Why not, he was fucked up enough to believe it.

[Lokakyy]

If Hitler hadnt shot himself, his buddies around him would have probably taken care of it themselves.

I don't think so - you're underestimating the fanaticity Hitler's innermost circle. As you said, most of the high-ranking generals had already fled and remaining in the bunker was the most loyal nazi cadre in the bunker. The inner circle even suggested escaping Berlin many times to Hitler, but he didn't want to take that path.

On his last picture taken, while he was reviewing Hitler Youth's kids, handing them medals, you can see something in his face that you dont see in those taken in the previous years, despair, depression.

Actually that is not the last picture, it was taken 20th of April, on his birthday, ten days before his suicide. This is generally considered to be one of the last pictures of Hitler:



Much more boring, eh?

[Englishman]

I don't think so - you're underestimating the fanaticity Hitler's innermost circle. As you said, most of the high-ranking generals had already fled and remaining in the bunker was the most loyal nazi cadre in the bunker. The inner circle even suggested escaping Berlin many times to Hitler, but he didn't want to take that path.

I agree. To the bitter end his underlings were fanatically loyal. The likes of Bormann, Goebbels etc were still squabbling for power and influence even as the Russians were entering Berlin.

Watch the film Downfall (based on actual accounts from those who knew Hitler). He walks into a room a broken and sick man at a time when it was clear the situation was hopeless for Germany and all of his Generals still perform the Nazi salute.

[The Immortal Goon]

You think Churchill was a bigger mass murderer than Stalin and and Mao? No, wait. The people they killed deserved it didn't they?

Too bad Churchill didn't share your crticisims of Stalin and instead decided to try to divide the world up with him behind FDR's back.

-TIG

[Englishman]

Do you think Churchill had a choice?

The Allies couldn't have done much to stop the advance of the Red Army into Eastern Europe anyway. Churchill was trying to make the best of a bad situation.

[Luke]

If Hitler hadnt shot himself, his buddies around him would have probably taken care of it themselves

Definitely false, for reasons stated above. When Rohm was betrayed and killed during the Night of the Long Knives, his last words before being executed were "Heil Hitler".

[Wilder_Ghandi]

Hmmm Hitler's last thoughts, interesting subject.

The gas bill one from Happeren, had me giggling.

I think his last thougt was, "oh no dont.. set me on fire, I am still alive, you brainwashed morons."

[Polkovnik]

But if the Germans had reached Moscow before winter it would have probably spelled doom for such a centralised country as the USSR. It is just speculation but its very unlikely that the USSR could have won the war without the help of the other allies.

Actually, only the physically handicapped Germans, who weren't considered capable of fighting on the Eastern Front, were sent to the Western Front. This is something I picked up in a book. So this leads us to the conclusion that the Germans had their best cadres on the Eastern front. The USSR had the capability to fight and defeat the Germans by themselves. Also, after the D-Day invasion, the Western Allies had to face 30 German divisions, whereas the Soviets had to face 150 German divisions. Would an extra 30 divisions have made a big impact on the Eastern front, considering the best cadres were already on the Eastern front? I think not.

[Lokakyy]

Actually, only the physically handicapped Germans, who weren't considered capable of fighting on the Eastern Front, were sent to the Western Front. This is something I picked up in a book.

Not true.

There were also SS divisions in France. I doubt they were all physically handicapped.

[Polkovnik]

This may be true, but the SS had a mission of bringing order, not actually fighting enemy soldiers. They were responsible for enforcing the Nazi doctrines. I was talking strictly about soldiers.

[Lokakyy]

This may be true, but the SS had a mission of bringing order, not actually fighting enemy soldiers. They were responsible for enforcing the Nazi doctrines. I was talking strictly about soldiers.

False.

Waffen-SS were combat troops, not some kind of a nazi police. They had panzer divisions (in the west for example Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler and Das Reich), panzer grenadier divisions etc. Surely not just to "bring order".

[Polkovnik]

Lokakyy


Here's a passage from Wikipedia:

After humble beginnings as a protection unit for the NSDAP leadership, the Waffen-SS eventually grew into a huge force of thirty-eight combat divisions comprising over 950,000 men.

The logical conclusion one can make from that passage is that their purpose to keep order. And therefore any force of that objective could be considered "combat troops", to quote your previous statement.

[Lokakyy]

The logical conclusion one can make from that passage is that their purpose to keep order. And therefore any force of that objective could be considered "combat troops", to quote your previous statement.

I'm sorry, but to claim that Waffen SS was there "to keep up the order" instead of fighting against the enemy is downright wrong. Therefore, your logical conclusion is wrong. Of course there were SS military police, but Wehrmacht had that also. But please disbelieve what I am saying and read this from Feldgrau:

The German SS/Waffen-SS in WWII

Of all the German organizations during WWII, the SS is by far the most infamous - and the least understood amongst average historians. The SS was in fact not a monolithic "Black Corps" of goose stepping Gestapo men, as is often depicted in popular media and in many third rate historical works. The SS was in reality a complex political and military organization made up of three separate and distinct branches, all related but equally unique in their functions and goals. The Allgemeine-SS (General SS) was the main branch of this overwhelmingly complex organization, and it served a politicial and administrative role. The SS-Totenkopfverbande (SS Deaths Head Organization) and later, the Waffen-SS (Armed SS), were the other two branches that made up the structure of the SS. The Waffen-SS, formed in 1940, was the true military formation of the larger SS, and as such, it is the main focus of this section. Formed from the SS-Verfungstruppe after the Campaign in France in 1940, the Waffen-SS would become an elite military formation of nearly 600,000 men by the time WWII was over. Its units would spearhead some of the most crucial battles of WWII while its men would shoulder some of the most difficult and daunting combat opertations of all the units in the German military. The Waffen-SS is sometimes thought of as the 4th branch of the German Wehrmacht (Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine) as in the field it came under the direct tactical control of the OKW, although this notion is technically incorrect as strategic control remained within the hands of the SS. To this day the actions of the Waffen-SS and its former members are vilified for ultimately being a part of the larger structure of the political Allgemeine-SS, regardless of the fact that the Waffen-SS was a front line combat organization.

http://www.feldgrau.com/ss.html

[Polkovnik]

Point taken. But your passage did mention that the General SS served as a type of administrative body. So that means that the SS were both a soldier and a police unit.

[Englishman]

Actually, only the physically handicapped Germans, who weren't considered capable of fighting on the Eastern Front, were sent to the Western Front. This is something I picked up in a book. So this leads us to the conclusion that the Germans had their best cadres on the Eastern front. The USSR had the capability to fight and defeat the Germans by themselves. Also, after the D-Day invasion, the Western Allies had to face 30 German divisions, whereas the Soviets had to face 150 German divisions. Would an extra 30 divisions have made a big impact on the Eastern front, considering the best cadres were already on the Eastern front? I think not.

The Eastern Front bore the brunt of the fighting in Europe. That I do not deny. Even Churchill said it was the Russians who tore the guts out of Nazi Germany. I was thinking more about the huge financial aid the USSR received from the US and, to a lesser extent, Britain.

Additionally, the fact that Britain was still in the war meant that Germany had to postpone the invasion of Russia by a few months when it had to intervene in Greece. An earlier invasion could have seen the Germans reach Moscow before the winter. It also meant that the Germans couldn't concentrate all their resources on Russia. Without the Western Allies, there would have been no war in North Africa, no D-Day (which still diverted resources). The war was a joint effort.

[Lokakyy]

Point taken. But your passage did mention that the General SS served as a type of administrative body. So that means that the SS were both a soldier and a police unit.

The tasks didn't lap on the unit level - Allgemeine SS was a different branch than Waffen SS. It was even possible to hold different SS ranks in Allgemeine and Waffen SS when the excess bureaucrat Allgemeine men got transferred into fighting units of Waffen SS. And on the other hand, most of Waffen SS members were not in Allgemeine SS.

Considering that also RSHA, Gestapo, SD, Einsatzgruppen, Totenkopfverband and many others were branches of the SS, it is hardly very descriptive to use only general term of "SS" - the organisation was a bureaucratical morass that performed many functions that possibly had very little cooperation with each other, not to mention with Wehrmacht (a good example of this would be the obvious conflict between Wehrmacht Abwehr and SD.)

If you read earlier posts, I never denied that SS had no administrative tasks or duties that meant keeping order. Even Wehrmacht can be seen in executing that role (after all, that is what occupiers do). I just refuted the obvious untruth that SS had no combat duty. In a fact it had very important role in battles against allied invasion.