[SpitfirE]

Oh I know they were close to it, but Hitler wanted it to be used for industry rather then a weapon.

Terrible mistake.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Well - I happen to have different sources to you, because I have read more than simply Zhukov and Molotov. Zhukov and Molotov are neither considered the most reliable or non-biased sources on those days, so most people choose to *check* their testimonies with other eyewitness accounts.

So in other words you just CHOSE not to believe their eyewitness accounts and instead go for sources which weren't there and know jack...but act authoritarian simply for the purpose of slandering Stalin. Very well done of you.

I agree that many militaries throughout history have been unprepared. This does not deny that the Soviet Union was in 1941. What is clear from the sources is that Stalin did not treat the attack entirely seriously - perhaps due to previous disinformation - and did not trust early reports of the invasion, thinking them mere provocations. There was ample intelligence from many sources, but Stalin didn't react appropriately to it.

And here again you CHOSE to ignore all I said about Soviet preparations for the war...and simply go ahead and jump into fanatasies. By all means go ahead...I'v already made my case with facts...so I have no more obligation to talk to you on this matter.

The Soviet defensive lines and airfields were built *very* close to the new border between the USSR and Nazi Germany. This meant that unless the military command was competent enough to mobilise in time to repel an attack, or unless they thought *there would be no attack*, that this action was a case of quite inept planning. As it is, a combination of these cases meant large human and aircraft casualties on the first day of the war.

Once more...you do a wonderful job at ignoring the facts I wrote above...specifically the facts about the defensive lines not being COMPLETED YET. They were not occupied, the planes were unservicable and the units had no ammunition...having just gotten to the border.

So all you can accuse Stalin of is that he could not see into the future to predict when the German invasion would happen. Of that...he is guilty. he was not a prophet.

And then you make a half-assed comment "if they thought there would be an attack"...conveniently ignoring the facts as to the Soviet preparations and the excercises Zhukov mentions.

But of course..Zhukov is "biased"...There are apparently better sources to ask...ie western armchair intellectuals.

Even Zhukov seems to indicate that Stalin was not expecting the attack at any time - it was the only time Zhukov saw Stalin depressed. Zhenya Allilueva reported that she had "never seen Joseph so crushed". So what happened next was hardly unbelievable.

AND WHO MIND YOU...EXPECTED THE GERMAN INVASION ON JUNE 22??? Stalin was "somewhat depressed" to quote Zhukov correctly...But I ask you...what exactly is your criticism of Stalin here???

On the 28th of June, Stalin had reached breaking point

Look at the log books. Could it be he was physically and mentally exhausted from working 24 hours on June 25 and 10 hours both on 26th and 27th leading the war??? No...of course not...it must have been something else.

Again...ridiculous accusations made by armchair intellectuals.

As I mentioned before - it was from the 28th that Stalin had his "breakdown" - days that you have left unaccounted.

He had had a total of 88 hours 50 minutes of meetings during those 6 days...leading the greatest war in history. Was he possibly tired?? Was he possibly fatigued??

As a matter of fact Stalin's doctor had visited him 2 days earlier...becasue Stalin was suffering from throat problems (due to his smoking) and recomened on June 20th that Stalin needed imediate hospitalization. He had a 40 degree Celsius fever on June 20th. Was he perhaps physically and mentally exhausted...both from this fever and from the long working hours???

No...its not possible. He broke down..."for 10 days"...as Khruschiev says...beasue he couldn't believe the German attack happened. He broke down in demoralization....becasue he had taken the wrong course. That must be it.

While on the other hand we have NONE of the people you mention saying that Stalin felt anyway like that...saying that he was always in control and saying that he worked very hard during that first week.

But they aer all biased when it comes to that however...surely...it was becasue of his ineptritude.

Again...I ask you...WHAT ARE YOU ACCUSING HIM OFF??

Even as the Stalin-apologist Molotov recounts "Zhukov shirks responsibility for the beginning of the war. But that is naive. He is not only evasive, he gets confused"

I see no point to this...

Stalin lost his temper with Zhukov, and Zhukov reported left the room crying.

Again...please explain to me what you are accusing him off?? Of being human?? Of being worried that the greatest war machine in history was invading the USSR??? Of being fatigued and tired of working so hard??? What exactly is your point...beasue it seems to me you have absolutely none.

You seem to be making some VERY CHEAP shots at Stalin...which doesn't surprise me.

Beria recounted "It was obvious Stalin expected anything could happen, even the worst", suggesting that Stalin thought the Bolshevik leaders might have been organising a coup against him

Again...a stupid comment. How does that quote from Beria mean "they were organizing a coup against him"? if you want to add your own fairy tale comments to it...go ahead. I thought you weren't found of "biased" comments.

Beria couldn't possibly have been talking about the war situation...no...it was a coup!!

This is where the ridiculous LIES about Stalin come about.

So let me see...he rested for 3 days from the 29th to the 31st...this following a massive workload and a fever caused by his throat problems (which again I quote Stalin's docotor B.S.Preobrazhensky...needed hospitalization imediately). Was he exhausted?? Most likely...thats why he took the break. Now what does this have ANYTHING to do with your accusations on him???

You say he was inept...you say he broke down becasue he couldn't beleieve Hitler attacked him. Of course...convinently ignoring that he worked so hard in the first week against it. If that was the case...he would have broken down the first day...as some idiot Khruschievite would claim.

So again I ask you...what is your accusation of Stalin??? That he was physically and mentally exhausted from leading the greatest war in history??? What is your accusation...do you even have one or re you just arguing for the sake of throwing some dirt on Stalin...no matter how trivial or pointless???

But what is known - as I describe here - is that an account which critically examines *all* the eyewitness accounts available, does suggest that there was both depression and a misevaluation of the reality of the situation from about 16th June to the 1st July on Stalin's account.

Not at all. First you said Stalin ignored the deserter who warned the Soviets of the attack on June 21st. Stalin in fact believed him and issued orders in accordance. Then you say he did not prepare for the war and did in fact not even believe the war would come. That is also wrong...as Soviet forces were carrying out excercises for such an event well before June 22 1941...and the very fact that fortifications and forces were being massed on the border and defensive plans were already drawn up and build build. The only problem was...no one could see into the future.

You say Stalin ignored intelligence reports which supposedly pointed to when the attack would come. This again is wrong. As I pointed out earlyer...British intelligence was warning the Soviets every month that the attack would happen "next month". Germany itself was busy in a program of missinformation....(perhaps you convinently forget Sea Lion)...which they carried out against the Soviet Union. So Stalin was only being caucious. The intelligence sources that were reliable...we in fact saying that the German attack would not happen until the invasion of England (Sea Lion). This is what the commander of Soviet Intelliegence, General Golikov told Stalin.

And of course conveniently ignroing how the British themselves were foolwed by Sea Lion...or how French adn Belgian and British intelligence failed to predict the German attack on them.

So again I sak you...what is your criticism here?? You seem to simply criticise him for no other reason than to throw dirt on him..regardless how trivial. An armchair intellectual at its best...

Stalin did not ignore any intelliegence reports...those were the intelligence reports he was getting...and NONE indicated to any German attack at that time.

Then you go on saying Stalin was inept becasue he didn't believe the Germans would attack and therefore he went to some sort of depression becasue he couldn't believe Hitler attacked him and becsaue he had not prepared the USSR for it. Again...all lies...becasue you want to ignore the fact that the first week Stalin worked VERY hard. How could that be if he supposedly could not beleve the Germans attacked him??? But again...your accusations make no sense...other that to throw dirt on him on a completely trivial matter. He was exhausted physically and mentally from leading the war, had a 40 degree fever...and somehow that translates into ineptitude and disbelief in the German attack.

You say he ordered Soviet troops not to fire back...because he couldn't believe the German attack. That is a lie. The German deceleration of war came soon after their attack started...Stalin didn't issue any orders until 3 hours afterwards.

Again...your "interpretations" (I know you love to make interpretations) are completely baseless and wrong.

You try to bring up trivial and pointless things and some how "interpret" them to mean whetever you want. Also...being so ignornat on military matters...you say Stalinw as inept becasue the fortifications failed and it took so long to react.
--------------

From all that I have seen...Stalin did his best to prepare the USSR for the war...and the USSR was in fact well prepared for the war. From what I can see...he worked very hard...and even on the first day was not "depressed" or "demoralized" as some have said about him. He WORKED HIMSELF TO THE BREAKING POINT...Of that I will accuse him.

The rest is just ignorant assumptions made by some armchair intellectual whose only aim so to throw dirt...no matter how trivial or pointless or wrong.

[Maxim Litvinov]

As I've pointed out - Zhukov's testimony is flawed. He is out, for instance, by about 400% in the time between the German attack and his first meeting with Stalin. He has omitted events - both because he didn't want to mention them, or wasn't there - and give an account of others that doesn't seem accurate when all the available sources are examined. As I quoted - even the very pro-Stalin account of Molotov says that Zhukov's account is confused and based upon naivety.

There's no point sticking to Zhukov's very narrow account when there are so many more eyewitness accounts of those days.

I see, however, that you are not going to swayed by any "facts" - including testimonies from the Berias, Poskrebyshevs, Alliluyevs, Mikoyan, Molotov, the Kremlin logs, the Budyonnys, Kuznetsov, Timoshenko, Chadaev and others. Apparently all of these people were 'armchair intellectuals'. Or anyone who dares to quote such eyewitness accounts is such.

I have not argued that Stalin should have been omnipotent. I have shown that many of his decisions in June, 1941 seemed poor or unreasonable. I have shown how the overwhelming body of evidence cites him being surprised, depressed and resigned to his fate during this time. He was ill-prepared for June and the sources show it.

I can't see any point in continuing an argument with someone who fails to acknowledge any other eyewitness sources except the quite unreliable Zhukov. I have pointed you in the direction of many other first-hand accounts, but you would prefer to simply discount these people - some of whom who were present on many more occasions with Stalin in June 1941 than Zhukov - as armchair intellectuals.

I invite anyone else with a more open mind and less biased used of sources to talk and argue with me about this period. I cannot see any point in providing any more heavily-documented accounts of this period, however, when you are just going to dismiss any personal account that doesn't come from Zhukov as being biased.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

I have not argued that Stalin should have been omnipotent. I have shown that many of his decisions in June, 1941 seemed poor or unreasonable. I have shown how the overwhelming body of evidence cites him being surprised, depressed and resigned to his fate during this time. He was ill-prepared for June and the sources show it.

Well this is where we disagree. His actions in the first week of the war indicate that the surprise did not hinder him from functioing and working very hard. As I have pointed out...the three day break he took most likely was due to the physical and mental exhaustion he endured during the first week...where he worked 88 hours and 50 minutes of official meetins on the most important life-or-death matters.

The people you quote all say that he was neither depressed nor so surprised by the attack that he stoped functining. Zhukov was there in the first day. Molotov was there throughout the whole time. Both attest to this...

Sinc eyou say he was not omnipotent...than I will ask you ONCE MORE...what are you accusing Stalin of???

You have not provided any evidence to back up your claims. He worked very hard and was very dedicated during the first week...

You would have expected...that if the attcack was such a surprise to him and demoralized him so much...he woul dhave broken down on the first day...

But he never broke down. His fatigue was due to working too hard...and as I pointed out his doctro had diagnosed him with a 40 degree fever due to problems with his throat...and recomended hospitalization just 2 days earlier.

Who is ignoring facts here??? You ignore that during the first week he worked so hard...and invent some fantasy that he was so shocked that he stopped functioning. Obviously NOT true...and NONE of your sources claim that.

I accept and believe your sources...its just that they do NOT say what you are saying.

[Maxim Litvinov]

I agree Stalin worked very hard during the first week of the war. I agree that would have made him fatigued. He spent over 12 hours a day in his office on some days, and even slept overnight in it on occasions.

The people I note all agree that he turned up to meetings from 22 - 28 June. They also all indicate (except Zhukov, who wasn't there) that there was a time for a couple of days where he appeared to be so depressed and fatigued that he almost resigned. This, in particular, is noted by Beria and Mikoyan - and what they suggest fits into all the other accounts too.

I don't think Stalin was a military fool. But I think the fact that all of the major decision-making had to go through him, and the fact that he was by no means a military expert, meant that many mistakes were made. I include in that list the lack of immediate preparation for counter-attack or pull-back, the "over-kill" in the officer's crisis of 1936-37, and the lack of a good filter on intelligence coming to the Politburo in the days leading up to the German attack. I think the officer's crisis is a good indication of Stalin either being paranoid based on advice from Yagoda and Yezhov, or failing to stop a military purge going overboard. I think that the intelligence reports indicate an inability to *read* information appropriately, and the border defences issue indicates a lack of military ability.

I'm happy for you to put his mini breakdown down to delirium or fatigue. All I'm saying is that it happened, and it was brought about - in my opinion - by Stalin being unprepared for what greeted him in July '41. I believe - based on testimonies of eyewitnesses - that he was genuinely shocked about the extent of the early rout of Soviet forces, and that this was reflected in his decision-making and this depression.

I repeat - I think Stalin did the type of job that would be expected from someone not well versed in military affairs, who often was surrounded by semi-competent sycophants and who felt the entire weight of the situation upon him.

I only started this little foray into the war because you claimed the idea that Stalin was either "inept, incompetent or paranoid" and that this led to "many more than necessary" being lost was laughable. For what it's worth, I think those statements are fairly accurate.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

I include in that list the lack of immediate preparation for counter-attack or pull-back,

Well you can include it on you "list"...but it doesn't make it true. I have already explained to you why the defenses failed...and it wasn't due to lack of trying...but to lack of having a fortune teller to tell them when the attack would come

Again...this is why I call you an armchair intellectual. You can make any accusations you want...becasue you have no understanding of reality or of military matters. The Israelis had a almost impregnable defensive line int he Sinai, the Bar Lev line, which the US had said it would tkae the combined engineering corps of the US and Soviet Armies to break through it. Egypt broke through it in 2 hours and destroyed the entire Sinai Army. What does that tell you???

I have already told you...which you have convinently ignroed...that the bunkers and fortificatiosn in the line were not even cmplete yet and were not occupied. The order to occupy the bunkers came only on June 21...when Stalin was warned by that defector. The rest of the forces on the border...while being very large numercially, had just gotten to the border and lacked ammunition and parts. That is why they were lost so quickly.

Do you take any of this into consideration?? No of course not...reality has no place with armchair intellectuals. It was Stalin's ineptitude...as always.

the "over-kill" in the officer's crisis of 1936-37

Officer corp doubeled during the period actually....

and the lack of a good filter on intelligence coming to the Politburo in the days leading up to the German attack.

Actaully the filter was good. Stalin at least ignored most of the information saying the attack would happen "NEXT MONTH!!!"...from British intelligence or the Germans themselves. Again you have yet to tell me ONE person who warned Stalin the attack would happen on Jue 22...until June21. Soviet intelligence commander told Stalin that while the German army deployment on the border would be complete by June 15...the attack would not start until the war with England was over. This is was the concesus of EVERY source that was going to Stalin.

And again...I fail to understand WHAT YOU ARE ACCUSING HIM OFF??? I have asked this 7 times now...and you have as yet refused to answer it. You simply prefer to let your mouth run off...but not deal with it. What do you accuse him off??? I have already given you pleanty of other examples...Sea Lion didn't just fool Stalin, it fooled England. What does that mean than for England...applying your brilliant theories?? That Engand was therefore inept and Churchill was inept and that they were all a bunch of morons to ignore infomration. Or take France...or better yet America...or Israel...or anyone you want really.

Thse sort of accusations are made by armchair intellectuals 60 years later...but they are very CHILDISH comments and have no relevance to reality. This is becsue you don't understand the real nature of military intelligence...and the real nature of military warfare. You are ignroant on this...I understand...so don't make any accusations on things you don't understand.

I think the officer's crisis is a good indication of Stalin either being paranoid based on advice from Yagoda and Yezhov, or failing to stop a military purge going overboard. I think that the intelligence reports indicate an inability to *read* information appropriately, and the border defences issue indicates a lack of military ability.

It indicates NONE of these things as I have stated above. You celarly have no idea how things are done in the real world...so they are not done with 100% accuracy and do not lead to 100% victory...then therefore that must mean Stalin was inept, paranoid and stupid...becasue you...60 years later...can now see his mistakes.

Very childish comments...

n my opinion - by Stalin being unprepared for what greeted him in July '41.

And then I ask you again...how was he unpreapred...if for the first week he worked so hard?? If he had broken down..he would have broken down on the first day...

And then I ask you once more...WHAT ARE YOU ACCUSING HIM OFF??? Who exactly was supposed to know the attack woudl happen on June22...that Stalin was the only one caught by surprise???

Your accusations are childish and baseless...not to mention not real.

I believe - based on testimonies of eyewitnesses - that he was genuinely shocked about the extent of the early rout of Soviet forces,

Everone was shocked at that. What does that have to do with Stalin ?? I already explained to you why the borer defenses failed. WHY DO YOU IGNORE THAT FACT!!! And who in their right minds would not become depressed when so much of their army was destroyed in a surprise attack??

Again..what are you accusing him off?? Either make your accusations right now...or shut up with your childish ridiculous comments...

I repeat - I think Stalin did the type of job that would be expected from someone not well versed in military affairs, who often was surrounded by semi-competent sycophants and who felt the entire weight of the situation upon him.

And I repear...you have no idea what you are talking about. By your own defition of what someone "not well versed in military affairs" is...than EVERY commander of England, France, America, Belgium and Israel was an idiot..becasue all their militaryes were caught by surprise and decimated...even though...according to your own definition...they SHOULD have known about it and acted better then they did.

As I have said 10 times now...your accusations are stupid and baseless...and are made by an armchair intellectual who has no grasp of reality. Its very easy to make criticisims 60 years later...but you are still ignroant.

I only started this little foray into the war because you claimed the idea that Stalin was either "inept, incompetent or paranoid" and that this led to "many more than necessary" being lost was laughable.

And they indeed are. You have conveniently ignored similar comparisons fromt he same time period with all the other countries involved...and how they all were victim of Nazi misinformation.

You have convinently ignroed that Soviet border defenses were still being constructed and were not as yet ready. And I have asked you....which prophet or angel came to Stalin's shouldr one night to tell him there would be an attack on the 22nd??? You accuse him of not seeing into the future...or of not preparing???

You say he was paranoid...I say who would not distrust intelligence report which for a year had been warning of an atatck "next month!!". In fact, as I already said, the commader of Soviet Intellgience had specifically told Stalin that the German attack would not start before Sea Lion. You convinently ignore the fact that Sea Lion didn not only fool the Soviets..but fooled the British themselves. You can ignore it...but it was there. Now 60 years later you can easily say Stalins hould have seen Sea Lion...but then you would be an idiot if you said it (which I believe is what you are saying)

You say it was Stalin's fault there were "uneccessary losses" in the begginng of the war. I say YES...it was Stalin's fault...it was his fault becasue he was not a prophet and was not Jesus to foresee the future and know the attackw ould happen on June 22. Perhaps...someone with the future-reading abilities such as yourslef...would have been better in that position.

Ridiculous and childish accusation...

And furthermore, I'd like to point out the fact that while the Soviet AF as you say lost a lot on the ground in the first week...and yes mostly on the ground becasue their planes as I satted were mostly inoperable at that time...By the end of the first week the VVS had shot down 1,200 German aircraft...as much as the entire RAF shot down in 3 months of the Battle of Britain.

Unprepared, inept, paranoid, stupid??? I say you are ignorant for saying those things...

As I poinuted out earlier...and I'll conclude with this...if one applies your ridiculous theories to ANY country during WW2...one comes to the conclusion that ALL its leaders and commanders were inept, paranoid, unprepared and stupid. What 60 years of hindsight will do...and how ignorant one has to be NOT to realize that they are apeaking 60 years after the fact...

[Maxim Litvinov]

You can use the words 'childish' and 'baseless' as much as you want, comrade, but they don't really stand to reason.

I am glad to see you are no longer quoting large swathes of Zhukov like the Bible, but unfortunately now you are simply quoting no one. Rather you are simply asserting your own points again because you feel that the facts should not get in the way of a defence of Comrade Stalin.

Your line now seems to be "the defences failed". By this, you seem to accept that Stalin wasn't ready in the long term for war, but not necessarily that this was the case in the short term. But you fail to take into account military best-practice. If you have an Army with poor or no defensive positions, with bad supply lines and limited ammunition then you don't put them up to be slaughtered, you withdraw them. Provided the army is given adequate time to accomplish all of these tasks - through a swift reaction from military command - then you suffer far fewer losses and have the opportunity for a large counter-offensive. Planes are quite easily pulled back... but weren't.

I would accept that if Britain and France had good warnings about Hitler's attacks, and if they didn't act on those warnings, then those responsible are incompetent. I've got no problem with that. But that has little to do with analysing what Stalin was told (a lot), and how he reacted (badly).

Now, you dismiss the military purge on the basis of the unsourced claim that 'the officers' numbers grew'. Well, let me give you the statistics:

In the ten days following the death of Tukhachevsky, 980 senior commanders wwere arrested. Many were tortured and shot. In the months that followed, the Soviet military establishment was devastated by arrests and executions. In 1937, 7.7 percent of the officer corps were dismissed for political reasons and never reinstated; in 1938 another 3.7 perdcent were removed. In that two-year period more than 33,000 military officers were discarged for political reasons; 9,941 were arrested, and 23,434 were discharged but not arrested. Of these, 11,596 were reinstated by 1940, leaving 21,779 permanent victims either arrested or fired in the military purge.

[Getty & Naumov, The Road to Terror, pp. 450-1

Now, you seem to have given up on the claim that people like Tukhachevsky, Yakir and Gamarnik (and their families) deserved to be shot. But, when will you acknowledge that purging nearly one thousand top military staff is *not* the best for the Army, and replacing old officers with a flood of new, unexperienced ones might raise officer numbers, but makes for a far less able and more dislocated fighting force?

The crisis and depression that faced the leadership during the first tortuous weeks of war was regulated by the fact that they were militarily unprepared for the German's swift advance, and that Stalin was also psychologically unprepared for the war.

If you fail to see my points, thus far, I will reelucidate them:
1) Lots of intelligence was coming to Stalin in the weeks and months leading up to war. It was not simply 'from the British', but also collected from many good Soviet men - among them, the one told to 'fuck his mother'. Stalin didn't believe it. Guderian remembers mustering his forces on the west of the Bug, staring over with his binoculars and seeing the Soviet troops larking about. Timoshenko and Zhukov had alerted Stalin to increased border activities on 13 June, but he didn't do anything to strengthen the borders or even pull back forces. Merkulov reported daily, with all sorts of German sources, but was ignored. Schulenberg warned Dekanozov - the Soviet Ambassador - who passed the message on in mid May, but was ignored. Dekanozov again firmly warned Stalin on June 20, but was ignored again. Two deserters warned that the war was about to begin the night before - nothing happened.
2) As a result of ill-preparedness and the positions of the Soviet defences - including air defences - a greater rout than thought possible happened in those first days. Stalin obviously wasn't prepared for it, and either were other members of the elite. They worked frantically around the clock, and sooner or later for a brief period it seemed Stalin had given up - and had to be coaxed back to the Kremlin to continue his leadesrhip.
3) The military were also under-trained and ill-at-ease as a result of the 1936-7 military purges. Some of the generals - like Zhdanov - who enjoyed Stalin's favour were quite incompetent, whilst many of the USSR's best military tacticians had been killed off. Whilst the Soviet people fought valiantly, many of their orders at times verged on the incompetent. The Finnish campaign is a good example of just how poor these 'new officers and generals' were at war.

I do want the source for your 1200 German aircraft quote, btw. Here's hoping it isn't from the pen of Zhukov too

[Monkey Angst]

[Deleted: I replied to something on page 1 without noticing page 2]

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Your line now seems to be "the defences failed". By this, you seem to accept that Stalin wasn't ready in the long term for war, but not necessarily that this was the case in the short term. But you fail to take into account military best-practice. If you have an Army with poor or no defensive positions, with bad supply lines and limited ammunition then you don't put them up to be slaughtered, you withdraw them. Provided the army is given adequate time to accomplish all of these tasks - through a swift reaction from military command - then you suffer far fewer losses and have the opportunity for a large counter-offensive. Planes are quite easily pulled back... but weren't.

Again...a childish comment...and you still don't seem to understand what I said.

Who said the Red Army was poor and no defensive positions and poor supply lines???

They were building these defensive positions...they were NOT COMPLETE YET. Do you understand what that last part of the sentance means???

The Soviets units deployed to the border were freshly deployed. Some of their equipment had not even arrived yet...they didn't even have barracks yet for many of them (this was in the newly liberated territory from Poland)

Again...your accusations are completely wrong. You accuse him of not taking any steps to preapre and of having a weak unpreapred army. This was totally not the case. As I said...Stalin couldn't see the future...so there was no way for him to know when the Germans would attack. The best he could do was preapre AS SOON AS POSSIBLE...and THAT WAS DONE.

Retreat?? Why...when preapring border positions and deplying units there to defend it...your aim is to LAUNCH A COUNTER-ATTACK AS SOON AS SOON AS POSSIBLE...not to retreat. Again..you are accusing Stalin of not seeing into the future and not ordering the AF to "retreat". That is a stupid accusation and a stupid claim. When the enemy attacks....YOU COUNTER-ATTACK. When the Egyptians crossed the Sinai, the Israelis send their AF and tansk on the offensive against them. They were slaughtered nonetheless.

Again...you are an armchair intellectual with NO understanding of military matetrs or of reality for that matter.

I would accept that if Britain and France had good warnings about Hitler's attacks, and if they didn't act on those warnings, then those responsible are incompetent. I've got no problem with that. But that has little to do with analysing what Stalin was told (a lot), and how he reacted (badly).

Again...a stupid comment. You have yet to show WHO told Stalin about an attack on June 22. Becasue as for myself...I'v already told you what the conclusion of Soviet Intelligence was (not through Stalin)...that the attack would come only AFTER Sea Lion.

Was this wrong infromation?? Yes...but this is the information Stalin was getting.

Now, you dismiss the military purge on the basis of the unsourced claim that 'the officers' numbers grew'. Well, let me give you the statistics:
Quote:
In the ten days following the death of Tukhachevsky, 980 senior commanders wwere arrested. Many were tortured and shot. In the months that followed, the Soviet military establishment was devastated by arrests and executions. In 1937, 7.7 percent of the officer corps were dismissed for political reasons and never reinstated; in 1938 another 3.7 perdcent were removed. In that two-year period more than 33,000 military officers were discarged for political reasons; 9,941 were arrested, and 23,434 were discharged but not arrested. Of these, 11,596 were reinstated by 1940, leaving 21,779 permanent victims either arrested or fired in the military purge.
[Getty & Naumov, The Road to Terror, pp. 450-1

Its funny how I already mentioned all those statistics before to you...and how I pointed out to you that many of those 22,000 permanently removed officers were from non-political reasons. 9000...as I already told you...were arrested.

But you have not said anything about whether thatw as a necessary thing to do or not. You seem to think that simply becasue you arrested some of your officers..its automatically a bad thig to do.

Well amybe if France and Belgium had arrested some of their...they wouldn't have collapsed in 2 weeks ude to the fifth columnists.

You convinently ignore that Hitler had already used those tacticks in France and Belgium...and that from many sources there was indeed a military conspirancy within the Red Army connected to the Germans (Again...the book Comrade X by one who was involved in it).

So again...you have made no point.

Now, you seem to have given up on the claim that people like Tukhachevsky, Yakir and Gamarnik (and their families) deserved to be shot. But, when will you acknowledge that purging nearly one thousand top military staff is *not* the best for the Army, and replacing old officers with a flood of new, unexperienced ones might raise officer numbers, but makes for a far less able and more dislocated fighting force?

Yes...and Petein in France was a highly experienced commander who fought in WW1...and a fifth columnists for the Germans which collapsed the French military. What is your point???

The crisis and depression that faced the leadership during the first tortuous weeks of war was regulated by the fact that they were militarily unprepared for the German's swift advance, and that Stalin was also psychologically unprepared for the war.

And again you make stupid claims...

Psychologically unprepared for the war. What was he supposed to have been doing??? Brain push ups???What kind if a ridiculous accusation is that??? WHO is psychologically prepared for the greatest invasion in history??? And yet Stalin worked so hard during the first week....which disporves your ridiculous claims...

Stalin didn't believe it. Guderian remembers mustering his forces on the west of the Bug, staring over with his binoculars and seeing the Soviet troops larking about.

Yes...and what's your POINT??? Stalin KNEW the Germans were massing on the borders and WOULD attack ONE DAY. When thet day was...no one knew.

Again..what do you accuse him off??? Of not attacking the Germans FIRST???

Timoshenko and Zhukov had alerted Stalin to increased border activities on 13 June, but he didn't do anything to strengthen the borders or even pull back forces.

Forces ARE NOT PULLED BACK you moron when the enemy is ready to attack...

And what does "border atcivity" mean??? You seem to think Stalinj was unaware that the Germans were massing on the borders?? HE WAS AWARE...he knew an attack would come. It may come today...it may come next year....and all the intelligence was saying it would come AFTER SEA LION.

You seem to think that simply becsue they observed "border activity" that must mean an attack is imminent and war will start tomorrow. Several German reconaissance planes had been SHOT DOWN by the Soviets already during 1941. These aerial incursions as well as border penetrations WERE COMMON...they happened all throughout 1941...and the Soviets were very well aware of them.

Again...I will say it again and I hope it gets through your head this time...you have NO UNDERSTANDING OF MILITARY MATTERS. Stalin knew the Germans were massing...but border activity, even border penetration...WERE COMMON and were not an indication that the attack was imminent. Both Egypt and Israel made reconaissance flights over each other for years before 1971. Syrian MiG-25s STILL overfly Israel once in a while. Does that mean war??? NO....

You seem to suggest that Stalin thought the Germans would never attack...or that he was unaware that there were Germans on the borders. HE WAS...thats why he was building the defensive lines and massing troops...thats why German reconaissance planes were SHOT DOWN.

Merkulov reported daily, with all sorts of German sources, but was ignored

Says who...and WHAT WAS HE REPORTING??? ThAT THE ATTACK WOULD HAPPEN ON JUNE 22??

If he wasn't saying that...than what the hell is your accusation?? You keep running your moth off on these things...but you have YET TO SHOW ME WHO TOLD STALIN THE ATTACK WOULD HAPPEN ON JUNE 22!!

Schulenberg warned Dekanozov - the Soviet Ambassador - who passed the message on in mid May, but was ignored

WHAT MESSAGE??? That the Germans would attack?? Stalin knew the Germans would attack...the question was WHEN!!

And secondly...WHY should Stalin have believed these sources?? Simply becasue someone tells him so...doesn't mean it is a reliable source. Again...you seem to be completely ignorant on these matters. British intelligence was telling every moth there would be an atatck then...German intelligence was doing the same thing. Remember Sea Lion?? SOME SOURCES CANNOT BE BELIEVED....

Again your arguments are childish and ignorant...

Dekanozov again firmly warned Stalin on June 20, but was ignored again

Warned of what?? And WHY SHOULD HE HAVE BEEN BELIEVED??

2) As a result of ill-preparedness and the positions of the Soviet defences - including air defences - a greater rout than thought possible happened in those first days. Stalin obviously wasn't prepared for it, and either were other members of the elite.

And agian you make a stupid baselss coment like this...conveniently turning everything into black and white and into a short 2 senatnce story. Forget reality...it was bad...I know...I live 60 years later and I can easily see where Stalin went wrong.

3) The military were also under-trained and ill-at-ease as a result of the 1936-7 military purges. Some of the generals - like Zhdanov - who enjoyed Stalin's favour were quite incompetent, whilst many of the USSR's best military tacticians had been killed off. Whilst the Soviet people fought valiantly, many of their orders at times verged on the incompetent.

And again you make a stupid ignorant comment...ignoring the very real existance of the military conspirancy. But hey..if they were good commanders...no point in removing them...right?? Maybe you should have told that to the French...

Again...ignronat and baseless...

The Finnish campaign is a good example of just how poor these 'new officers and generals' were at war.

Funny...becasue the generals there were the "old" generals...none of the "new" ones. I don't know what "new" means to an ignorant armchair intellectual...but you think they pulled some guy off the street and put him as a general???

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Two deserters warned that the war was about to begin the night before - nothing happened.

This deserves its own reply...becasue not only are you ignorand and make absurd comments...but apparently you are also a lier.

I will direct you to my post on Mon Jan 19, 2004 8:23 am...where I said:

Stalin was informed about the German invasion on the night of June 21...when a German soldier defected to the Soviet side and warned them. Now...contrary to western propaganda BS...Stalin believed this man and took all steps necessary. For proof of that...you can just read Zhukov:

Quote:
`But perhaps the German generals sent this deserter to provoke a conflict?', Stalin asked.

Timoshenko: `We think the deserter is telling the truth'.

Stalin: `What are we to do?'

Timoshenko: `A directive must immediately be given to alert all the troops of border Districts'.

After a brief discussion, the military men drew up a text, which was slightly modified by Stalin. Here is the essence:

`I order:

`a) During the night of 21.6.41 the firing posts in the fortified areas on the state border are to be secretly occupied;

`b) Before dawn on 22.6.41 all aircraft including army aviation are to be dispersed among the field aerodromes, and carefully camouflaged;

`c) All units are to be alerted. Forces are to be kept dispersed and camouflaged;'

Zhukov , pp. 232--233.

Now how can you even say such a thing...when I already wrote this days ago???

[Maxim Litvinov]

*sigh*

I have documented the generals killed, the intelligence ignored, and we both know the casualty statistics.

Now, if you want to sit back with your bookshelf consisting of "The Complete Works of Zhukov" and proclaim quite against the great majority of all other sources that anyone who suggests there were undue casualties is a filthy liar and Stalin-hater, then that's fine by me.

But while you quote your own limited understanding, based on Zhukov, you also shelter yourself from a mass of other eyewitness evidence. Dekanozov, Merkulov and the defectors knew an attack was coming on the 22nd. Stalin was informed of this intelligence from his own intelligence community. He didn't believe them. This is based upon Merkulov's letters in the archives, and also from a wealth of eyewitness testimony.

I'm quite happy for you to defend Stalin's decision-making. But the extremism with which you selectively ignore almost all the sources, decide that every comment which hints Stalin was wrong is devious propaganda, and need to resort to personal abuse all suggest that very little will be achieved by any continuation of the discussion.

So, I am bowing out of this thread. I didn't call you a liar, or childish, despite the fact that it has always struck me your knowledge is extremely limited, one sided, you are not open to fair criticism or comment, and that your motivation is simply to defend Stalin at all costs - even the cost of historical accuracy and truth.

So, if anyone else wants to talk about this I will be happy to discuss it, but I am not going to be prompted to respond to your limited, repetitive and ad hominem attacks any more.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

And again you do your best to ignore everything said so far...and go back and make the same ridiculous comments as before.

Now...to examine the military situation on the Western Front on June 22 1941.

First of all, I already told you about the 2,500 major fortifications being build along the border...but which were not completed yet on June 22...and the order to occupy them was send out only on June 21. You ignored it cmpletely...good for you.

They you said the Soviets lost badly becasue Stalin somehow issued orders not to return fire or not to act. That again is a lie. Then you asy they suffered heavily becasue of mistakes Stalin made...with some idiotic ideas of yours to "pull back" the froces from the border. Thats rubish.

The condition on the border was that there large numbers of Soviet units deployed and BEING deployed...but they were not in a combat-ready positions YET. Again...the KEY WORD here is YET.

For example, on June 22 the Soviets had deployed 7,133 aircraft in the Western MIlitary Districts. They had only 5,937 crews for them. 1,196 aircraft had no pilots and were inoperable. WHY??? Was it because Stalin didn't believe an attack would come or any of your ridiculous claims??? No...it was becasue preparations were being made AS SOON AS POSSIBLE...but apparently that was not soon enough.

So the high Soviet losses on the ground...may well be due to the fact that 1200 aircraft were inoperable...so they were left on the ground by the Soviets and abandoned there.

The Red Army in June 22 had a TOTAL Army size of 4,826,900 active personnel plus 805,264 reservists. Germany had an army size of 7,329,000. Add to that the armies of Finland, Romania, Hungary and other Axis Allies...and you see the overwhelming superirority in numbers of the Axis.

On the Western Military Districts, the Soviets had deloyed 2,900,000 men. Facing them the Axis had deployed 3,562,000 Germans and 744,800 other Axis soldiers. That is a ratio of 1.5:1 numerical superirority of the Axis in terms of soldiers.

Furthermore...most Soviet soldeirs were not in fighting positions yet and were in the rea lines, lacking equipment, ammunition or so forth...becsue they were STILL being deployed. Out of 171 divisions on the WMD 108 were operational for the Soviets. For the Germans, out of 166 divisions, 153 were operational while the rest were in the rear areas. That means only 1.95 million Soviet soldiers were operational on the WMD...while 3.97 million Axis soldiers were battle ready at that time. That means the Germans really outnumbered the Soviets in 2:1 in terms of operational units on the border. Even worse...in the areas the Germans broke through...they outnumbered Soviets units 5-7:1...

Soviets units were spread out along the entire length of the Soviet western border...meaning they were thinly spread out. German forces could concentrate on one breakthrough point and break it...surrounding the rest of the soldiers...which is exactly what happened.
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This was the condition on the front...and thats why Hitler was able to win. He won becasue he realized he had to attack the Soviets while they still hadn't finished their preparations for the war.

I leave it to armchair intellectuals such as yourself to come up with whatever childish and idiotic comments you want about it....

---------------

Dekanozov, Merkulov and the defectors knew an attack was coming on the 22nd. Stalin was informed of this intelligence from his own intelligence community. He didn't believe them.

Again...you are either incredibly stupid...or just an incredible lier.

I already responded to the defector issue with its own thread...and you continue to LIE.

Neither Merkulov nor Dekanozov gave a date...nor did anyone else. Soviet Intelligence was telling Stalin that while the Germans would be "ready" by June 15...they would not start their attack until after England.

Now...I'll leave you to continue your lies...

So, I am bowing out of this thread. I didn't call you a liar, or childish, despite the fact that it has always struck me your knowledge is extremely limited, one sided, you are not open to fair criticism or comment, and that your motivation is simply to defend Stalin at all costs - even the cost of historical accuracy and truth.

It seems to me that your motivation is simply to slander Stalin on any trivial and insignificant point...accusing him of things which you are completely ignroant about (all too obviously...military matters). It seems to me your motivation is "interpret"...becasue that is what you love to do apparently...anything, regardless of what it REALLY says or what it REALLY means...and spin it upside down to serve your purposes.

You ignore the military matters entirely...you speak 60 years after the fact and criticize Stalin for not having the same fortune-telling abilities that you have...and then you call him militarily inept when you yourself are completely ignroant on the matter.

Whatever my motivations may be...it is clear that yours are simply to slander Stalin on any point...no matter how trivial or insiginificant...or how much a product of your imagination it may be.

So, if anyone else wants to talk about this I will be happy to discuss it, but I am not going to be prompted to respond to your limited, repetitive and ad hominem attacks any more.

And yet OEVER AND OVER...you have refused to answer my one question....WHAT IS YOUR ACCUSATION ON STALIN??? All you seem to do is point out that he couldn't foresee the future...and therefore somehow that shows something negative about him.

-----

You my friend are an armchair-intellectual...disconected with reality..ignorant on the matters you speak of (military matters)...and you love to give your own "interpretations" and spin offs to everything...

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Oh BTW...to reply to the German aircraft shot down part...whch I forgot to do. I read the 1200 figure from an Italian source...which I have now lost. Nonetheless, on the first day of the war the VVS took out of action 178 Axis aircraft...

I already explained why there was such a high loss on the ground to the VVS....1200 aircraft simply had no pilots and were thus abandoned.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

More information on the actions on the first day of the war...NOT directed at Litinov...becasue I know he'll spin off some "interpretation" of his...but simply for interst of everyone else.

On June 22 the Germans launched a massive assault on the Soviet airfields on the border...as they targeted those specifically. The first German wave to attack the airfeilds numbered 631 bombers and 237 fighters. The Second wave followed some hours later, numbering 400 bombers and several hundred figthers (exact number unknown). So in the first day the Germans deployed 1300-1400 combat aircraft for the attack on Soviet airfields ALONE.

According to data from the German archives, they destroyed or took out of action 888 aircraft on the ground and shot down or otherwise took out of action 223 aircraft in the air.

Soviet air force responded quickly. On the first day of the war ALONE they flew over 6,000 missions against the Germans...shooting down or otherwise taking out of action 178 Axis aircraft (the number is actually a bit higher...since some data is lacking for other Axis allies) So in the air they gave a pretty good account of themselves...getting an almost 1.2:1 kill ratio in the air.

On the ground they suffered heavily becasue of the surprise nature of the attack. Although the order was already issued on June 21 to spread out the aircraft and conceal them...few airfields carried out the order. In most cases the aircraft were lined up in straight lines in the open, and were easy pray. Only the Odessa Military District followed the order to dispers their aircraft. They suffered only 6 losses in the ground and the air, while inflicting much heavier losses on the enemy.

Furthermore, there were some 1200 aircraft that were inoperable as of yet laying in the airfields, so these were easy prey for the Germans. Also, most of the Soviet aircraft were old obsolete types such as I-15s, I-153s and I-16s....while nearly all German fighters were BF-109 or BF-110 modern types.

---------

The very first aerial battle between Soviet and German aircraft happened in the Kiev Military District at 4:30 AM. 28 Ju-88s and their escorting Bf-109s were dispatched by the IIIrd Gruppe/KG 51 to attack the Kurovitsa airbase, home of the 66 ShAP Shturmovik Ground Attack unit, made up of I-15 and I-153 biplanes. When the German aircraft were spotted, the crew of the planes were aleretd and ordered in the air. However, the pilots thought it was just a drill and delayed in their deployment. As a result, the German bombers got over the airfield without the planes having lifted, destroying 34 of them on the ground. By that time, I-16s of the 164 IAP Fighter unit from a nearby airfield had arrived over the airfields. Several I-153s of the 66 ShAP also managed to lift off as German bombs were falling around them. The first aerial victory on either side was achieved by Lieutenant P. N. Rubstov of the 66 ShAP flying an I-153 when he shot down one of the Ju-88 bombers. A firefight ensued between the Soviet planes and the escorting Bf-109s and bombers. 7 Ju-88s were shot down in the battle, but 3 I-16s were also lost. The German bombers were send retreating having recieved heavy losses. The first aerial combat ended with a 7:3 victory by the Soviets, including the first shot down of the conflict.