Great Britons: Kim Philby, Anthony Blunt, Guy Burgess et al. - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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'Cold war' communist versus capitalist ideological struggle (1946 - 1990) and everything else in the post World War II era (1946 onwards).
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#1577009
Even before the Second World War, the famous Englishmen who spied for Russia – Burgess, Maclean, Philby, and Blunt - all became supporters of the Soviet Union from seeing the rot in British democracy. Kim Philby wrote … “the real turning point in my thinking came with the demoralization and rout of the Labour Party in 1931. It seemed incredible that the party should be so helpless against the reserve of strength which reaction could mobilize in a time of crisis”. (Kim Philby, My Silent War, NY, 2002, p.xxx)


Not surprisingly, therefore, but falsified now, Russia was treated badly throughout the Second World War. The Russian contribution to victory in the Second World War was immense – much larger than the contribution of the USA which joined the war effort two years after it had begun. In Western countries the population, however, is invited to believe the USA, in fact, “won” the war.

Paranoid in many ways, Stalin insisted the Allies refused to open a Second Front so that Russian strength would drain away in endless, destructive battles against the Nazis. In truth, Russia carried the burden of the war, lost something like 25 million lives, and suffered enormous destruction. It was – constantly – a betrayed ally whose demands after the war were resisted strongly, whatever we may think of Soviet Communism, especially under Stalin.

Staggering as it may seem now, while Russia alone was the major fighting front against the Nazis, the British broke the key Nazi military secret code (as early as 1941) and kept the fact from the Russians. As Miranda Carter reports in her book about Anthony Blunt: “For the rest of the war, information relevant to the Soviets – particularly on German troop manoeuvres … was disguised, or even withheld….”

One of Blunt’s leaks to the Soviets was to inform them of an intended German assault upon Kurst (information being kept from the Russians by the British). Blunt’s spy information saved thousands of lives of our “Russian allies”. Miranda Carter admits that some of the English believed “we ought to be giving much more to Russia”. (Anthony Blunt, London, MacMillan, 2001, p.276)

Then, of course, the whole development of the atomic bomb was kept secret from the major ally taking the brunt of the Second World War. The “spies” who were feeding atomic information to Russia were, in fact, feeding information to a major ally suffering enormous military and civilian losses. Rare are the writers who will grant the ambiguity and contradiction of having a major ally denied the fundamental support an alliance is meant to provide.

Blunt, for one, probably stopped spying for the Russians after the Second World War. Indeed, much of the intelligence passed by the Cambridge Five helped prop the Russians up during the Second World War in the second front that helped bleed the Nazis dry.

For most of the war Blunt remained in charge of one of the most sensitive of all MI5's operations – the interception of the diplomatic bags of the neutral embassies in London. The pouches were intercepted and collected under Blunt's supervision then carefully slit open: their documents were copied and the stitches reinserted and dyed to match the worn side before the pouches were sent on their way. Blunt, on his own admission, must therefore have passed a great deal of extremely valuable information to Moscow that would have facilitated Stalin's strategy in taking over eastern Europe and making a grab at the Balkans. But Major Blunt's most infamous hour came in the spring and autumn of 1944, when he was transferred to General Eisenhower's SHAEF headquarters to liaise with military intelligence. His involvement with the D-Day deception plans meant that Stalin was almost certainly informed well in advance of the secret that Roosevelt and Churchill were at great pains to keep from the Soviet leader – the time and place of the Normandy invasion. Stalin must have decided that it was not in Russia's military interests to inform Berlin of the vital secret which could have turned D-Day into the Allies' biggest defeat of the war. He needed the opening of the Second Front to draw off German reserves and accelerate the Red Army's advance westwards.


Perhaps a little of Stalin’s paranoia may have had a sound basis.
Last edited by Tonic on 03 Jul 2008 02:12, edited 1 time in total.
By Manuel
#1577102
much larger than the contribution of the USA which joined the war effort two years after it had begun. In Western countries the population, however, is invited to believe the USA, in fact, “won” the war.


Depends on what front you're talking about, IMO.
User avatar
By Dave
#1577226
Why is this thread titled "Great Britons"? :?:
These men were traitors and all deserved the hangman's noose.
By Tonic
#1577472
Cause Churchill tried to fight Nazi Germany to the last Russian blood. And Cambridge Five saved Britain's honor in the face of hisory. I think it's obvious.
By Unperson-K
#1577500
Tonic
And Cambridge Five saved Britain's honor in the face of hisory. I think it's obvious.


Britain has never had any honour in the face of history: we aren't known as 'Perfidious Albion' for nothing.
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By Prosthetic Conscience
#1577604
The Russian contribution to victory in the Second World War was immense – much larger than the contribution of the USA which joined the war effort two years after it had begun.


Of course, the Soviet Union joined the war in September 1939 - by invading Poland, along with Nazi Germany. Does that count as an 'immense contribution' as well? Those Cambridge spies were rather worried by Stalin's pact with Hitler. Still, they did, at least half-heartedly, spy for an ally of Nazi Germany for nearly 2 years against their own country, before Stalin found himself invaded. Then the spies got to feel a bit more self-righteous again. Lucky them.
By Tonic
#1577607
Prosthetic Conscience

Interesting comment. I try to learn more about the issue by this thread. Just bought My Silent War by Kim Philby (used book).
User avatar
By Potemkin
#1577610
Why is this thread titled "Great Britons"? :?:
These men were traitors and all deserved the hangman's noose.

Actually, many people in Britain did and still do regard them as heroes. When Kim Philby published his memoirs, Graham Greene wrote an admiring foreword to the book. That's the equivalent of Ernest Hemingway writing an admiring foreword to the memoirs of Aldrich Ames. Most American spies for the Soviet Union did it simply for the money. The British Soviet spies such as Philby, Blunt, et al acted as they did out of strong personal conviction. One British spy for the Soviets, Melita Norwood, was offered hundred of thousands of pounds by the Soviets over the years, all of which she refused as she believed the money would be better spent building socialism in the Soviet Union. She even used to lecture her KGB handler on his lack of commitment to the Communist cause. :lol:
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By Frank_Carbonni
#1577641
Heh. They sound like suckers. They risked their lives and didn't get paid so they further the power of a paranoid madman who didn't even believe in that bullshit.
User avatar
By Dave
#1577688
Tonic wrote:Cause Churchill tried to fight Nazi Germany to the last Russian blood. And Cambridge Five saved Britain's honor in the face of hisory. I think it's obvious.

And why wouldn't he have? It was in Britain's national interest for both Germany and the Soviet Union to be weakened as much as possible. The Cambridge Five betrayed their country and gave state secrets to the USSR, which directly reduced Britain's postwar standing.

Potemkin wrote:Actually, many people in Britain did and still do regard them as heroes.

Who? Marxists? :p

Potemkin wrote:When Kim Philby published his memoirs, Graham Greene wrote an admiring foreword to the book. That's the equivalent of Ernest Hemingway writing an admiring foreword to the memoirs of Aldrich Ames.

Hemingway, however, was a patriot and would never have sullied his honor like that.

Potemkin wrote:Most American spies for the Soviet Union did it simply for the money. The British Soviet spies such as Philby, Blunt, et al acted as they did out of strong personal conviction. One British spy for the Soviets, Melita Norwood, was offered hundred of thousands of pounds by the Soviets over the years, all of which she refused as she believed the money would be better spent building socialism in the Soviet Union. She even used to lecture her KGB handler on his lack of commitment to the Communist cause. :lol:

I'm not sure what's worse--being a traitor because you hate the nation that spawned you and make common cause with a foreign land for ideological reasons, or selling your honor for 30 pieces of silver.
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By Potemkin
#1577768
And why wouldn't he have? It was in Britain's national interest for both Germany and the Soviet Union to be weakened as much as possible. The Cambridge Five betrayed their country and gave state secrets to the USSR, which directly reduced Britain's postwar standing.

No, it directly reduced the British ruling class' postwar standing.

Actually, many people in Britain did and still do regard them as heroes.

Who? Marxists?

Yes, but not only Marxists. :)

When Kim Philby published his memoirs, Graham Greene wrote an admiring foreword to the book. That's the equivalent of Ernest Hemingway writing an admiring foreword to the memoirs of Aldrich Ames.

Hemingway, however, was a patriot and would never have sullied his honor like that.

Graham Greene was not perceived as having sullied his honour by writing an admiring foreword to Kim Philby's memoirs. He was one great man acknowledging the achievements of another great man.

I'm not sure what's worse--being a traitor because you hate the nation that spawned you and make common cause with a foreign land for ideological reasons, or selling your honor for 30 pieces of silver.

Their loyalty was to the British people, not the British ruling class. Since the British state was and still is controlled by the ruling class, in order to strike at the ruling class it is necessary to strike at the British state. They were actually intensely loyal people; it's just that their loyalty was to a higher cause than serving the British state apparatus. Class conflict trumps national conflict.
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By Frank_Carbonni
#1577770
[commie]Nation and honor are bourgeois constructs. So are standard of living, human rights, economic growth, truth, and logic.

The most important thing is following what some anti-Semitic German Jew said over 100 years and following only what he said and those who follow him said.[/commie]
By Tonic
#1577855
Potemkin

Who started the Cold War, and why? Was it Bevin? The Russians or the Americans? What was British part? Did The FO incite the Americans against USSR?
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By Potemkin
#1577866
Who started the Cold War, and why? Was it Bevin? The Russians or the Americans?

President Truman, in the White House, with the candlestick. Oh wait... wrong game. ;) It was Truman, since the Soviet Union was one of the big geo-political winners of WWII, and was (correctly) seen as a threat to America's and her allies' interests across the world.

What was British part? Did The FO incite the Americans against USSR?

Undoubtedly, though I'm not sure of the details. Certainly, Stalin regarded the British as a bigger threat to the Soviet Union at the beginning of the Cold War. It was only after about 1948 that he started taking the Americans seriously.
By Tonic
#1577884
Prosthetic Conscience

Of course, the Soviet Union joined the war in September 1939 - by invading Poland, along with Nazi Germany. Does that count as an 'immense contribution' as well? Those Cambridge spies were rather worried by Stalin's pact with Hitler. Still, they did, at least half-heartedly, spy for an ally of Nazi Germany for nearly 2 years against their own country, before Stalin found himself invaded. Then the spies got to feel a bit more self-righteous again. Lucky them.



On my reading the Jews of Warsaw were ecstatic when the they saw the Red Army in Sep 1939. There was mass rash to get to Russian occupied Poland before it would become too late. The Jewish enormous relief is understandable yet it brought upon them the Polish (Gentiles) resenment. Ribbentrop–Molotov pact was not evil pact.
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By Prosthetic Conscience
#1578089
Well, Tonic, given the choice between a dictator and a dictator with a specific hatred of them for their very existence, it's not surprising the Jews would think their chances were a bit better under Stalin. That doesn't excuse Stalin invading Poland, and annexing part of it, as previously agreed with Germany. And I find it hard to describe the Cambridge spies as working against 'rot in democracy' when their chosen master was a dictator who invaded a democracy. The Ribbentrop–Molotov pact showed the complete rot in communism in the Soviet Union - that it would co-operate with the Nazis to invade countries.
By Tonic
#1578095
The Ribbentrop–Molotov pact showed the complete rot in communism in the Soviet Union - that it would co-operate with the Nazis to invade countries.


Very very simplistic.

Joachim von Ribbentrop: "The final goal of German Jewish policy is the emigration of all Jews living in Reich territory."


Last update - 11:45 15/06/2005
Historian: Nazis wanted to deport Jews to Soviet Union
By Reuters

BERLIN - A document found in a Moscow archive suggests the Soviet leadership may have rejected a Nazi German proposal to deport Jews from German-occupied territories to the Soviet Union in 1940.

A Russian historian working in Germany has published an article in the Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper describing a letter that raised the possibility of Germany resettling Jews in Ukraine and Siberia.

The historian, Pavel Polian, said he had obtained the letter, which was written by Yevgeny Chekmenyov, a Soviet official in charge of resettlement. It was addressed to then-Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov and was dated February 9, 1940.

The letter, a portion of which was published in the Berliner Zeitung newspaper yesterday, discusses a German proposal made to the Moscow government to move more than 2 million Jews from Poland, Austria and Czechoslovakia to the Soviet Union.

There were no further details available about the original German letter.

But Polian said he believes it was written by Adolf Eichmann and Alois Brunner, who were in charge of Nazi Germany's Jewish emigration centers in Berlin and Vienna.

Germany and the Soviet Union had a nonaggression pact at the time. But the Soviet leadership apparently rejected almost immediately the idea of accepting more than 2 million Jews from German-occupied countries, according to Polian.

"We cannot take these Jews. We have an awful lot of our own already," Chekmenyov wrote in the letter to Molotov. He closed his letter by saying, "I would appreciate your guidance."

The possible deportation of Jews to the Soviet Union was one option mulled by the German government, which was seeking to find a territorial solution to what the Nazis referred to as the "Jewish question."

During the late 1930s and early 1940s, Nazi officials had also proposed other ways of evicting Jews from Europe, such as deporting them en masse to the island of Madagascar.

Nearly 6 million Jews were murdered in Europe as part of Adolf Hitler's "Final Solution."




http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShAr ... mNo=587757


Last edited by Tonic on 05 Jul 2008 00:10, edited 1 time in total.
By Mokeroo
#1578738
Kind of obvious that they asked for USSR's help in the deportation matters, GULAG was after all in full swing and hungry for more labor force.

and this silly communist idea that all people are equal... what? Some people are smarter, some dumber, some shorter some taller, some are born into a rich family, others aren't that lucky.
They tried to change all that in USSR and still ended up with a system where some people were more equal than others.


No sympathy for those traitors. Traitors just like Lord Haw-Haw.
By Tonic
#1578822
^ Is it OK for a major ally to be denied the fundamental support an alliance is meant to provide? To exploit Russian blood in a most cinical way for your nation sake, while they're supposed to be your alies? Probably you believe the policy makers on the high places know what they are doing. Why can't you challenge the basic assumptions of the policy makers on the high places?

Potemkin

Their loyalty was to the British people, not the British ruling class. Since the British state was and still is controlled by the ruling class, in order to strike at the ruling class it is necessary to strike at the British state. They were actually intensely loyal people; it's just that their loyalty was to a higher cause than serving the British state apparatus. Class conflict trumps national conflict.


QFT

Russia lost 25 million lives, and suffered enormous destruction. While Russia alone was the major fighting front against the Nazis, the British broke the key Nazi military secret code (as early as 1941) and kept the fact from the Russians. As Miranda Carter reports in her book about Anthony Blunt: “For the rest of the war, information relevant to the Soviets – particularly on German troop manoeuvres … was disguised, or even withheld….”

One of Blunt’s leaks to the Soviets was to inform them of an intended German assault upon Kurst (information being kept from the Russians by the British). Blunt’s spy information saved thousands of lives of our “Russian allies”. Miranda Carter admits that some of the English believed “we ought to be giving much more to Russia”. (Anthony Blunt, London, MacMillan, 2001, p.276)

Indeed, much of the intelligence passed by the Cambridge Five helped prop the Russians up during the Second World War in the second front that helped bleed the Nazis dry.
Last edited by Tonic on 06 Jul 2008 00:08, edited 1 time in total.
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By R_G
#1578929
The greatest Brit is Michael Caine hands down followed by David Coverdale.

Okay, okay, Steve Clark, Sean Connery and Frank Bruno.

All awesome Brits.

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