[Godstud]

Perfectly? Launching rockets at civilians is far from perfect. In fact it's terrorism.

Hezbollah is also charged with indiscriminate attacks and reprisal. Unlike those used by Israel, the Iranian-made Katyusha rockets it launched into northern Israel were not precision rockets. “Without guidance systems for accurate targeting,” the HRW report pointed out, “the rockets are inherently indiscriminate when directed toward civilian areas, especially cities.”

“It is clear by the sheer number of rockets with steel ball bearings that [Hezbollah] intentionally tried to kill civilians,” said Marty Rosenbluth, AI USA’s country specialist for Israel, the Occupied Territories, and the Palestinian Authority. Dubbed “shredders,” in Israel, the Katyusha rockets were reported to have caused most Israeli civilian casualties even though fewer than 10 percent of Katyusha rockets were loaded with them. After impact, the steel balls can scatter up to a few football fields away.

A terror weapon, not a strategic one.

Regarding your post about Iran's involvement with Hezbollah...

"I say to you what every Egyptian knows, that you are an Iranian party," Ibrahim wrote. "Are there instructions from Iran to drag Egypt into a conflict?"

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 06,00.html

[SouthBeirut]

Incorrect.

Incorrect in an Army like the IDF or any other regular army. Fact is, Hezbollah is incapable of transportation of weapons from Syria to the South in wartime.

And civilian targets as well.

Only in response to Israeli targeting of civilians deliberately. Our targets are military targets only. However, we WILL attack civilians if our civilians get attacked.

It's very reasonable. If you are all Hizballah, a terrorist\militant organisation, then you are all viable, legitimate targets.

So let's suppose I am a Hezbollah member, and I'm in Beirut at my home hiding unarmed in wartime while the war is in the South. That means that is pretty legitimate to bomb the entire house over my head ? If, so, then you'd better start developing some new nuclear weapons that can wipe off the entire Shia population in Lebanon without harming yourselves. =)

It'd be like me saying we are all IDF.

But you are all IDF !

[War Angel]

Fact is, Hezbollah is incapable of transportation of weapons from Syria to the South in wartime.

Those incidents are rarer, and the Israeli military spotted them. Still, weapons were transported within Lebanon.

So let's suppose I am a Hezbollah member, and I'm in Beirut at my home hiding unarmed in wartime while the war is in the South. That means that is pretty legitimate to bomb the entire house over my head ?

The choice of where to fight from is yours, in this case, not mine. You'll be bombed along with everything and everyone, yes. If you were more of a man, you'd sit in a bunker and not a family house.

But you are all IDF !

I know that is how you see it. It makes crushing the heads of little girls much easier, I imagine.

[Godstud]

Soldiers in uniforms are combatants in Israel. IDF wears uniforms and as such can be identified as IDF.
If people in israel are not wearing uniforms they are not IDF.

Hezbollah has no such identifying features and uses civilian houses to hide and launch attacks from. Does this justify bombing those civilian houses Hezbollah launchs attacks from? yes.
If Hezbollah did not want all its civilians to become casualties they would adopt military uniforms, rank, insignia and all the other identifying features that legitimate armies in the world use. Then they would not use civilian habitations to launch their attacks from. You would then begin to see very few civilian casualties.

Claiming that the Hezbollah is not capable of doing this shows their disregard for the very people they claim to want to protect and that they are in fact terrorists. Hezbollah cares NOTHING for it's people and only for it's own goals. If it suffers civilian casualties because of its actions they are acceptable losses and just gives them justification, in their twisted demented minds, for their own attacks against civilians.

Hezbollah are a bane to their own people.

[MVictorP]

Here is the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist:
A "freedom fighter" battles soldiers and other official representatives of enemy forces.
A "terrorist" deliberately targets and tries to kill innocent men, women and children.

Who gave you these definitions? George W. Bush?

A freedom fighter is a non-listed combattant that fights occupiers on his home lands, or the home land of his occupied ally.

A terrorist is somebody who want to coerce others by using fear. It is not somebody who necessarly attack civilians. It can also attack installations, symbols, establishments, or data bases.

Bombing (even while safely in your plane) a civilian part of town is a terrorist practice.
Demolishing homes in retaliation, or practicing collective punishment, is a terrorist practice.
Throwing (even un-effective) rockets into a town is terrorism.

The common point with all three exemples is that they aim to put fear into their targets, to coerce them.

If the Hezbollah blew up a bus, apologized and made sure it never happened again and attacked strictly military targets, they would be "freedom fighters". They haven't and aren't.

Okay; Question: Take an organisation, any one, that bombs a bus, or school. And then say "Ooops! Sorry! Accident here; That was not our primary aim: We value life". Then proceed to bomb a second one - and apologies again. Then another one. Rince, repeat, always with apologies: Are they terrorists?

I think people in general, WASPs and Jews in particular, pay too much attention to what people pretend instead of what they do. That is a typical culture of hypocrisy.

Hezbollah has no such identifying features and uses civilian houses to hide and launch attacks from. Does this justify bombing those civilian houses Hezbollah launchs attacks from? yes.
If Hezbollah did not want all its civilians to become casualties they would adopt military uniforms, rank, insignia and all the other identifying features that legitimate armies in the world use. Then they would not use civilian habitations to launch their attacks from. You would then begin to see very few civilian casualties.

Wearing an uniform does not make terrorism less despicable. It only shows that the terrorism in question is state-sponsored. Guerilla warfare and resistance, a reality that the ennemies of Israel are reduced to face for many obvious reasons, is precisely about hitting your ennemy outside the battlefield. They know what they are looking to if caught -death, but they are fighting still, because they are militants and yet there is no "official" uniform for them to wear.

If you are all Hizballah, a terrorist\militant organisation, then you are all viable, legitimate targets. It'd be like me saying we are all IDF.

First, you are comparing apples and oranges: Hizbollah is not only a military organization; It is also a registered, legitimate party that have elected members and offer popular services outside of war. The IDF is an army, period.

Second: When all Lebanese citizens will be forced to enlist for military service, like Israeli must do for the IDF, then yes, you will be able to say that every Lebanese is Hizbollah (without passing for a simpleton).

[LehmanB]

Hizbollah's and Hamas' military wing cant be seperated from its civilian wing.
They are different from other democrat parties. democratic parties are disconnected from any military wing. Hizbollah combines it. He cannot claim his civilian wing is as legitimate as other civilian parties before he abandon perminetly his military wing.

I will add that their civilian wing is even worse than their military one.
Their education system and media are second only to dark dictatorships ones.


"freedom fighters" -
all those names are not correct at my opinions.
there are fighters of civilization #1.
and fighters of civilization #2 from the other side.

I want the civilazation of the west will win, and not the civilazation of Saudia Arabia-Taliban's.
Thus I support George W. Bush side and not the other civilization side.

make sence?

[Godstud]

All Lebanese, as SamirKuntar pointed out, are Hezbollah so if you go by his word on it, there are no non-combatants.

Hezbollah uses human shields and uses civilian dwellings, etc. to attack from. This makes civilian homes targets.
Hezbollah is perfectly capable of having a legitimate army but doesn't because it would much prefer hiding behind its human shields.

The definitions I gave you were mine. Terrorism is attacking innocent people in order to sway people to your ideology or to get them to do what you want through fear. Freedom fighters do not do this and do not use their own people as shields to hide behind! Your definitions are extraordinarily vague.

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization AND a ruling party so you'd think they gave a shit about their people, but seeing as their militant wing doesn't...

Lebanese are not having their lands occupied by Israel so your identifying Hezbollah as freedom fighters is bullshit. Also the Hezbollah have identified their goal as the deaths of all Jews. How does that fit into your Hezbollah freedom fighter theme?

I never said Israel was without fault here and if you read the whole post and links you would realize that MVictorP.

[SouthBeirut]

The choice of where to fight from is yours, in this case, not mine. You'll be bombed along with everything and everyone, yes. If you were more of a man, you'd sit in a bunker and not a family house.

You didn't understand. Suppose I am a Hezbollah member, but don't belong to the military section. I'm just a Hezbollah member in name, just like the other family member in the house.

[Douglas]

Member of a terrorist organization? It doesn't matter if you carry a gun or not. We have military members who aren't on the front lines either, they are still legitimate targets.

[SouthBeirut]

Nice. So you made my point. You are all legitimate targets as you are all going to serve in the military and do serve once per year

[Godstud]

There is a difference between serving 2 weeks a year and being in UNIFORM and easily identified as a combatant and not being easily identified as a combatant EVER but claiming civilian status when it suits you, as the Hezbollah does. For those 2 weeks a year those people serving in a military are combatants. The rest of that year they are civilians. There is a clear distinction. Not so with Hezbollah.

"Oh damn you blew up a house of innocent civilians!", from which a missile was launched. As soon as the missile launched they all sit down and pretend they are civilians and hide their AK-47s and bombs. There are no uniforms to identify them as combatants and they USE the title of civilian as a propaganda weapon. Hezbollah are killed but since they don't wear uniforms, they are mistakenly called civilians.

If I did identify myself as being Al-Qaeda. I would have to accept that this is a criminal terrorist organization and that I would be a target as much as the guys who do terrorist attacks because my combat status can only be determined by membership in the organization, and not by anything else. This applies to Hezbollah as well until time as they ARE an actual military that can be targeted without civilians getting in the way. Hezbollah would not want that though since they would lose their human shields.

[Maas]

Hizbollah's and Hamas' military wing cant be seperated from its civilian wing.

oh why not? Sin Fein vs IRA....

"oh but that's not the same"
yeah right, nothing is EXACTLY the same.

[Godstud]

Which IRA are you speaking of?
IRA, Official IRA, Provisional IRA, Continuity IRA or 'Real' IRA?

Hezbollah does not seem to seek to have a wing that wants to settle things peacefully.

[LehmanB]

check each political party in the Netherlands whether it has its own army force who might shoot rockets on belgium if it wants.
If so- it is a terrorist organization, including all its wings.

[Arthur2sheds_Jackson]

Godstud wrote:

Which IRA are you speaking of?
IRA, Official IRA, Provisional IRA, Continuity IRA or 'Real' IRA?

Why does this matter they all have a Sinn Fein like political wing.

Hezbollah does not seem to seek to have a wing that wants to settle things peacefully.

Sinn Fein MPs refused to take their seats in Westminster or recognize the British gov't for decades. Hezbollah is light years ahead of them when it comes to seeking peace, at least their MPs actually sit in the parliament rather than trotting out excuses for each act of barbarism like Sinn Fein did.

A rather bad analogy to make.

[LehmanB]

yea their attacks plannes on tourists places in Egypt were far ahead peaceful. Alas their treat to Goldwasser and Regev captivities. Just to send flowers to thank.

[Douglas]

Why does this matter they all have a Sinn Fein like political wing.

No, they don't. Sinn Fein has nothing to do with the RIRA or the CIRA. You confuse the SF with the RSF and the 32s. And yes the RSF and 32s are proscribed organizations.

If you're going to try and discuss the troubles in Ireland then may I suggest that you at least try to patch over your ignorance.

[Arthur2sheds_Jackson]

Douglas learn to read before you accuse others of ignorance.

[Douglas]

my bad missed the "like"

But their not like Sinn Fein as they are proscribed organizations. Their members are terrorists.

So I'll water it down to that then. They don't all have a political wing like SF because the SF are a legal political party.

Apologies.

[Maas]

check each political party in the Netherlands whether it has its own army force who might shoot rockets on belgium if it wants.
If so- it is a terrorist organization, including all its wings.

we liked moved on since WWII....
you're still busy with futile revenge missions etc.

Hezbollah does not seem to seek to have a wing that wants to settle things peacefully.

besides running four hospitals, twelve clinics, twelve schools and two agricultural centres... somewhat true

Sinn Fein MPs refused to take their seats in Westminster or recognize the British gov't for decades.

wasn't there a rather peacefull protest idea behind it?