[Ideational Ontarian]

I'm sure Samir pretends the Palestinians were saints for the past 50 years. They directly or indirectly killed/massacred/murdered far more Lebanese than the Israelis.

If it wasn't for the PLO, the Civil War may not have happened at all or at least it would have been far more limited.

But just as Samir ignores Syria's 30 year occupation and subjugation of Lebanon, he will ignore Damour and any other violence perpetrated by his "side."

[SouthBeirut]

I'm sure Samir pretends the Palestinians were saints for the past 50 years.

In Lebanon ? I never said they were Saints. Your people and they started the civil war. We watched and got forced to fight.

If it wasn't for the PLO, the Civil War may not have happened at all or at least it would have been far more limited.

If it wasn't for Israel, the PLO wouldn't have gone to Lebanon. That's how we calculate stuff according to your logic.

he will ignore Damour and any other violence perpetrated by his "side."

God ! When are you guys going to accept Al Ta'if and stop whining about the past ?

If you say Damour, I'll say Karantina's payback, then what will you say ? Don't make a fool out of yourself my beloved Maronite friend.

[Douglas]

But surely all these pissants deserved it anyway Samir?

[SouthBeirut]

But surely all these pissants deserved it anyway Samir?

No. No innocent person deserves to die.

[Douglas]

But they're not innocent though are they?

[Tailz]

If it wasn't for the PLO, the Civil War may not have happened at all or at least it would have been far more limited.

I seem to remember replying to someone else in regard to the political turmoil in Lebanon that touched on this subject. Let me see if I can dig up the text…

I was replying to Douglas’ comment:
Conversely, Hezbollah exists because Lebanon exists, should it be turned into a crater then?

And I wrote:
Um, no. Hezbollah does not just magically exist because Lebanon exists. The political instability created by the emergence of Lebanon with its independence in 1943 created a rift between the Sunni government and the politically underrepresented Shi’a – the foundation of which was the National Pact of 1943, which vested legislative, executive, and military positions in rough proportion to the demographic size of the country's eighteen recognized sectarian groupings. The Shiites believed that their representation was not commensurate with their numerical size. The Shiite of southern Lebanon were also exposed to fighting between the PLO and Israel – these people migrated to escape the conflict (and the poor economic conditions) to the area of Beirut and its shantytowns – these areas became a breeding ground for Shiite militancy, with Imam Musa al-Sadr politically vocal in those communities around the 60’s and 70’s.

The situation was made worse with Israel’s invasion of Lebanon in 1978, in an attempt to disembowel the PLO from Lebanon (the PLO was at that time based in Southern Lebanon and was firing Katyusha rockets into Northern Israel) along with forcefully cutting Syrian influence in Lebanon. But Israeli operations oppressed Shi’a which lived in the south of Lebanon, which created another mass exodus to the area of Beirut. Israel invaded Lebanon again in 1982 and this time occupied Lebanon. This gave the radical elements a foreign-politic-military enemy to legitimate the group and provided a rationale for its guerrilla warfare, along with the presence of American troops – groups started to take shape, owing their legitimacy from fighting foreign, primarily Israeli, occupation.

The Iranian revolution or rather the message of a Shiite lead Islamic revolution was an extremely revolutionary message to Lebanons receptive Shiite community. Khomeini fostered the militant Shiite clergy with events such as the 1982 Islamic Movements Conference, also labelled as the first “Conference of the Downtrodden.”

From this turmoil arose a number of groups such as the supporters of Sheikh Ragheb Harb (southern Shiite resistance leader killed by Israel in 1984), Islamic Jihad, Organization of the Oppressed on Earth, and the Revolutionary Justice Organization. Between 1982 and 1985 these groups underwent a type of amalgamation from which crystallised Hezbollah.

Now as we can see, there was a lot going on, I think the civil war was inevitable, with or without the presence of the PLO. But the PLO’s presence and the Israeli invasion just made a bad situation worse. SO I disagree that without the PLO the Civil War may not have happened, but I agree that had the PLO not been operating from Lebanon, the Civil War may have been limited in its scope somewhat.

But surely all these pissants deserved it anyway Samir?

Pissants? That is very intellectual of you, do you think you can degrade the conversation any further Douglas?

[Douglas]

Pissants? That is very intellectual of you, do you think you can degrade the conversation any further Douglas?

Do you think I should hold them in higher esteem? Do you think I should more flowery or eloquent language when I refer to them?

[Tailz]

Do you think I should hold them in higher esteem? Do you think I should more flowery or eloquent language when I refer to them?

The use of such derogatory terms certainly does not encourage rational intellectual debate now does it. You have a handful of mud, and you’re more than willing to throw it – yet doing so does little to support your argument or prove your opponents case to be flawed in the eyes of your peers. Instead you just end up being read as a low brow individual concerned with rhetoric and name calling.

[SouthBeirut]

But they're not innocent though are they?

The Damour victims ? They were innocent, at least the civilian casualties. But the massacre was nothing but a payback for the Karantina Massacre. Not that this justifies a massacre, but those Palestinians didn't go on a trip to commit a massacre just because they felt like doing it.

[Ideational Ontarian]

If it wasn't for Israel, the PLO wouldn't have gone to Lebanon. That's how we calculate stuff according to your logic.

Absolutely true. Israel is the root cause of our problems. There is no denying that.

God ! When are you guys going to accept Al Ta'if and stop whining about the past ?

Are you kidding? Hezbollah makes a fucking mockery of Taif. The spirit of that agreement was one of non-proliferation of weapons in Lebanon. Hezbollah is the last black eye of Lebanon. Its final ugly scar. We need a surgeon to remove it so it can no longer remind us of our gruesome past.

If you say Damour, I'll say Karantina's payback, then what will you say ? Don't make a fool out of yourself my beloved Maronite friend.

My problem with you is that you will never acknowledge that war is not the answer. You are constantly trying to vilify your opponent's use of force and justify your own. I am not proud of some of the things my people did in that war, no one should be. But I also don't waste my time digging up the past, I argue for peace while you bathe yourself in blood.

All I want is an independent and peaceful Lebanon. In that nation there is no room for lawless armed gangs and dwelling on the bloody past. There is only the future ahead of us. Maybe you will learn that some day.

Now as we can see, there was a lot going on, I think the civil war was inevitable, with or without the presence of the PLO. But the PLO’s presence and the Israeli invasion just made a bad situation worse. SO I disagree that without the PLO the Civil War may not have happened, but I agree that had the PLO not been operating from Lebanon, the Civil War may have been limited in its scope somewhat.

Well we can't know but I think if you ask any expert what the straw that broke that camel's back was, they would all say the PLO. If the Palestinians had never come it would have been a series of small conflicts resulting in the Maronites conceding things slowly to the point we are at now. With the PLO it became a bloodbath and it regionalized the conflict by involving Israel and Syria who were only too happy to perpetuate our demise.

[Nets]

Absolutely true. Israel is the root cause of our problems. There is no denying that.

While yes, Israel (and Syria, Iran, the Palestinians, and just about everyone else) has had a hand in destabilizing Lebanon, I am not so sure it I'd label Israel the root cause.

Syria always viewing Lebanon as a rebellious province has nothing to do with Israel.

A country set up by the French as a primarily Christian State in which Christians composed 51% of the population at its founding was not a recipe for stability.

[Tailz]

Absolutely true. Israel is the root cause of our problems. There is no denying that.

I’d say Israel is a cause of trouble, but not the cause of Lebanon’s troubles.

Well we can't know but I think if you ask any expert what the straw that broke that camel's back was, they would all say the PLO.

And I would agree, the PLO was a whole bundle of straw. But we can’t forget the other bundles of straw on that poor camels back ether. The PLO and Israel, back there, were more a symbiotic trouble for Lebanon because the PLO was operating against Israel from within Lebanon, which brought Israeli forces into Lebanon – with the Lebanese stick between the two sides.

If the Palestinians had never come it would have been a series of small conflicts resulting in the Maronites conceding things slowly to the point we are at now.

Well that is one possibility, it may have turned out like that, then again the Maronites may have permitted a correction in the allocation of power on demographics, who knows how it could have turned out? It might have ended up even worse! Or it could have been better – certainly we both wish it could have been better.

With the PLO it became a bloodbath and it regionalized the conflict by involving Israel and Syria who were only too happy to perpetuate our demise.

Totally agree.

While yes, Israel (and Syria, Iran, the Palestinians, and just about everyone else) has had a hand in destabilizing Lebanon, I am not so sure it I'd label Israel the root cause.

I agree, everyone has been kicking in the proverbial Lebanese sand castle.

A country set up by the French as a primarily Christian State in which Christians composed 51% of the population at its founding was not a recipe for stability.

This assumes states split between religious factions are doomed for conflict. But then again history does seem to supply us with a few instances of states pulling themselves to pieces over religious divisions of territories. India and Pakistan, Israel and Palestine, Serbia & Kosvo – with the lines blurred even more by encompassing race to religion – is it race or religion that then becomes the dividing conflict point?

Nevermind me, I am rambleing on about nothing now.... move along, nothing to see here....

[Douglas]

The Damour victims ? They were innocent, at least the civilian casualties.

I was talking about all of them on your little list there.

And civilians? In Lebanon? Obviously that's a mistake. There is no such thing.

Instead you just end up being read as a low brow individual concerned with rhetoric and name calling.

I promise to be nicer about the terrorists and will stop calling them names...........

[SouthBeirut]

Absolutely true. Israel is the root cause of our problems. There is no denying that.

Ok...

Hezbollah makes a fucking mockery of Taif. The spirit of that agreement was one of non-proliferation of weapons in Lebanon.

No. The spirit of that agreement was the non-proliferation of Armed organization that were fighting the Civil War and allowing only the Lebanese Army to control the country's security. Unfortunately, the Army was incapable of liberating South Lebanon due to... umm.. it being a weak army facing the best and most trained army in the Middle East.

What would we do then ? I mean you're Maronite and you guys in your smashing majority don't live in the South, what would you care ? Even those who did live in the South, used to be in the SLA and committed so many horrors that they ran to Israel before the Israeli Army when the liberation happened. Those who stayed, were guaranteed security from Hezbollah, and the more important figures were arrested and given to the Lebanese Army where they would in most cases serve 3 to 6 months.

Hezbollah is the last black eye of Lebanon. Its final ugly scar. We need a surgeon to remove it so it can no longer remind us of our gruesome past.

You talk about peace and then write about a surgeon to remove Hezbollah. Hezbollah's military wing would only disappear when all the territories considered Lebanese by the government is given back, when all the prisoners and dead bodies are returned, when the Army is considered capable of defending the country properly against any aggression being it from Syria or Israel or Iran. General Aoun's plan seems to be very reasonable considering the size of Lebanon and it's geography, but too bad he got mocked by idiots who run this country when he represented his plans of creating a competent army. Instead those shits running the government went on to buy 10 MiGs 29.. I mean what the fuck would 10 MiGs 29 serve the Lebanese Army. These planes will end up like the Mirage ended up.

My problem with you is that you will never acknowledge that war is not the answer.

But the problem does not include you only. Many of your brothers acknowledge that war is the answer.

You are constantly trying to vilify your opponent's use of force and justify your own.

I'm not Palestinian.

I am not proud of some of the things my people did in that war, no one should be.

I know many that are proud of Karantina and other massacres here in Lebanon.

But I also don't waste my time digging up the past,

No one should.

I argue for peace while you bathe yourself in blood.

We all want peace buddy. You are not the only Lebanese who wants peace.

All I want is an independent and peaceful Lebanon.

We all want that.

In that nation there is no room for lawless armed gangs and dwelling on the bloody past.

That's true. Hariri's zo3ran and GeaGea's zo3ran must be put out of the streets and stripped from their brand new M-4 Carbines.

PS.: M4 Carbine was going for US$3,500 before the 2008 Security Crisis. After that, its price went down to US$1,500. Hezbollah only uses these types of guns in their Special Forces units. So where did all these weapons come from ?

[Ideational Ontarian]

No. The spirit of that agreement was the non-proliferation of Armed organization that were fighting the Civil War and allowing only the Lebanese Army to control the country's security.

You are talking about the reality of the agreement. Hezbollah was involved in fighting the SLA. So even by your own definition, Hezbollah should have been disarmed.

The spirit of the agreement was peace and demobilization. Militant organizations should be completely outlawed. Sunni, Maronite, Shia, Palestinian whatever. NO ROOM FOR GANGS IN A PEACEFUL COUNTRY.

Unfortunately, the Army was incapable of liberating South Lebanon due to... umm.. it being a weak army facing the best and most trained army in the Middle East.

And Hezbollah did a great job. They "liberated" South Lebanon after TWENTY YEARS. Wow! The fact is, Lebanon could have negotiated a withdrawl long before 2000 if there was no security threat for the Israelis.

You talk about peace and then write about a surgeon to remove Hezbollah.

It's called being figurative.

I know Hezbollah will respond with violence if a legitimate authority tries to disarm it. That much is very evident.

But the problem does not include you only. Many of your brothers acknowledge that war is the answer.

Oh really? Pretty much everyone I know here, in Lebanon, even on the Lebanese Forces forums just wants Hezbollah to disarm and permanent peace. I don't know ANYBODY that wants war of any kind except for Hezbollah supporters who love to fight with the Israelis.

I know many that are proud of Karantina and other massacres here in Lebanon.

Even my ultra Kateb father is not proud of any massacres. This is what you like to believe so that you can make us seem like the ones who are bad even though we want peace and you want war.

That's true. Hariri's zo3ran and GeaGea's zo3ran must be put out of the streets and stripped from their brand new M-4 Carbines.

Ok sure, everyone except the Army is banned from using weapons.

[SouthBeirut]

Hezbollah was involved in fighting the SLA. So even by your own definition, Hezbollah should have been disarmed.

SLA were Lebanese helping the Israelis keep control of the region of South Lebanon. By this definition they are considered traitors and should have been fought and executed all by the Lebanese Army. Instead of that, the Army wasn't prepared and Hezbollah did that job.

And Hezbollah did a great job. They "liberated" South Lebanon after TWENTY YEARS.

18 years to create, finance, recruit, train, battle the deadly Mossad infested in the country, counter-intelligence and liberating all South Lebanon from the most powerful army in the ME seems pretty reasonable to me.

If Hezbollah took 18 years to be an effective fighting force, the Army is still the shit it used to be since its creation. Of course, I'm talking about their military capabilities. All our respect and solidarity with the Lebanese Army.

The fact is, Lebanon could have negotiated a withdrawl long before 2000 if there was no security threat for the Israelis.

The Israelis would never leave that zone. It was like a Lebanese Golan to them. Even with the Israeli withdrawal, the SLA would stay there to maintain Israeli control indirectly through their proxy in Lebanon. War for the liberation of South Lebanon was inevitable.

I know Hezbollah will respond with violence if a legitimate authority tries to disarm it. That much is very evident.

Sure. We are here to protect ourselves. We know damn well the government, neither the Army would protect the South Lebanese population in case of a disarmament of Hezbollah.

Oh really? Pretty much everyone I know here, in Lebanon, even on the Lebanese Forces forums just wants Hezbollah to disarm and permanent peace.

People usually tend to be civil in moderated forums.

I don't know ANYBODY that wants war of any kind except for Hezbollah supporters who love to fight with the Israelis.

No. We know our enemy damn well to know it will attack again. No way the Israelis would let anyone mess with its Forces and beat them 2 times. That's why it seems that we want war.. But we want peace.

Ok sure, everyone except the Army is banned from using weapons.

What if the next day Netanyahu announces the invasion of South Lebanon to assure that Hezbollah was really disarmed ? You know you can't believe bastards like the Israeli Government.

[Nets]

We are here to protect ourselves. We know damn well the government, neither the Army would protect the South Lebanese population in case of a disarmament of Hezbollah.

This is an incomplete statement. It should read "We know damn well the government, neither the Army would protect the South Lebanese population from reprisals in response to our aggression against Israel, in case of a disarmament of Hezbollah."

Hezbollah manufactures a need for itself. IO is correct, Hezbollah only has a purpose so long as its fighting with Israel. Hence,

"Sure. We are here to protect ourselves" from our own obsolescence in the case of peace, hence we have to pick fights.

SLA were Lebanese helping the Israelis keep control of the region of South Lebanon. By this definition they are considered traitors and should have been fought and executed all by the Lebanese Army. Instead of that, the Army wasn't prepared and Hezbollah did that job.

And Hezbollah are Lebanese helping Iran keep control of Southern Lebanon for proxy wars with Israel.

[Ideational Ontarian]

SLA were Lebanese helping the Israelis keep control of the region of South Lebanon. By this definition they are considered traitors and should have been fought and executed all by the Lebanese Army. Instead of that, the Army wasn't prepared and Hezbollah did that job.

Man you are fucking insufferable. If they are traitors then you are just as much a traitor for supporting the 30 year Sryian occupation of Lebanon. At least the Israelis didn't control our civil institutions the way the Syrians did.

You are a goddamned hypocrite.

The Israelis would never leave that zone. It was like a Lebanese Golan to them. Even with the Israeli withdrawal, the SLA would stay there to maintain Israeli control indirectly through their proxy in Lebanon. War for the liberation of South Lebanon was inevitable.
...
No. We know our enemy damn well to know it will attack again. No way the Israelis would let anyone mess with its Forces and beat them 2 times. That's why it seems that we want war.. But we want peace.
...
What if the next day Netanyahu announces the invasion of South Lebanon to assure that Hezbollah was really disarmed ? You know you can't believe bastards like the Israeli Government.

Man, the worst part is that you actually believe your own bullshit. Israel has no interest in a Lebanon which does not provide Iran with a proxy force to attack it. THAT IS THE FUCKING FACT. You can spew all the bullshit you want but the Israelis already have enough of a headache with the West Bank to want to annex South Lebanon.

That Hezbollah exists as a defensive force is a complete charade. I don't know whether you are completely brainwashed or you are just disguising your burning desire to make war with Jews but I'm getting sick of hearing the bloody obvious lies you push.

Be honest for once in your life. Tell us right now whether you ACTUALLY believe Israel would attack Lebanon if Hezbollah was disarmed or if this whole thing is about your desire to keep the power that the weapons give you.

[Douglas]

What if the next day Netanyahu announces the invasion of South Lebanon to assure that Hezbollah was really disarmed ? You know you can't believe bastards like the Israeli Government.

Why would this be a bad thing?

[Arthur2sheds_Jackson]

Douglas me and a bunch of my friends want to raid your home - we say you have shit inside we don't like.

Why would this be a bad thing?