[Captaincook008]

Red Star seems to have the most accurate historical picture.
The Nazis wanted to smash the RAF before attempting any invasion of Britain, and as we all know they failed.

ARTHUR TWO SHEDS Last time I saw you was about two years ago in the Yahoo Political Chat Rooms, nice to see a farmiliat poster.

[Arthur2sheds_Jackson]

Captaincook008:

ARTHUR TWO SHEDS Last time I saw you was about two years ago in the Yahoo Political Chat Rooms, nice to see a farmiliat poster.

Well thats me - geordie scum.
What was your id in yahoo captain?
Me and all the regulars went to paltalk after yahoo cocked up last time.
Most of us are still there - drop by sometime.

[Oxymoron]

The Nazis wanted to smash the RAF before attempting any invasion of Britain, and as we all know they failed

.

They failed but their Airforce was still intact if they would have defeated the Soviets the British would have to accept peace or face V1+V2 Rockets hitting their cities plus greater numbers of new and improved German fighters and Bombers laying waste to airfields. With the USSR out of the war the Germans would swing part of their land force from the Soviet Union into the Middle east and Africa.

[Thompson_NCL]

They failed but their Airforce was still intact if they would have defeated the Soviets the British would have to accept peace or face V1+V2 Rockets hitting their cities plus greater numbers of new and improved German fighters and Bombers laying waste to airfields. With the USSR out of the war the Germans would swing part of their land force from the Soviet Union into the Middle east and Africa.

If Germany had defeated the USSR, they'd be in no position to launch an immediate offensive against British forces in the Middle East and North Africa. It would be some time before the German economy and military was ready to sweep into the Middle East.

I don't think Germany could have beaten Britain in the Middle East and North Africa whilst maintaining their grip on Europe and Russia.

[Oxymoron]

If Germany had defeated the USSR, they'd be in no position to launch an immediate offensive against British forces in the Middle East and North Africa. It would be some time before the German economy and military was ready to sweep into the Middle East.

I don't think Germany could have beaten Britain in the Middle East and North Africa whilst maintaining their grip on Europe and Russia.

After Army Group Center captured Moscow,and negotiated a cease fire.
Army group South would have to swing toward the Caucasas and they would be in Iran with out much resistance while the British were batteling Rommel in Egypt.

[Shade2]

SU can't be credited for defeating Hitler since for 3 years it was his ally and helped him to conquer European countries as well as exterminate Poles and Jews.

They failed but their Airforce was still intact if they would have defeated the Soviets the British would have to accept peace or face V1+V2 Rockets hitting their cities plus greater numbers of new and improved German fighters and Bombers laying waste to airfields.

That assumes British wouldn't develop new fighters and air defences. It also ignores losses in East by Germany. And of course British air bombardment campaign against Germany that would waste German cities. Finally Britain had its own atom weapons program that by early 50 or 51 would produce its own nuclear weapons. Germany would still be years behind in that.

[Oxymoron]

That assumes British wouldn't develop new fighters and air defences.

Nothing to match V2 or Jet planes.

And of course British air bombardment campaign against Germany that would waste German cities

Negligable effect on German production. the German production increased every year even with British and American bombardments.

Finally Britain had its own atom weapons program that by early 50 or 51 would produce its own nuclear weapons. Germany would still be years behind in that

By that time the British would have agreed to a cease fire and suspension of any Nuclear arms research.

[Red Star]

Nothing to match...Jet planes.

The first squadron of Gloster Meteors became operational in 1944

[Oxymoron]

The first squadron of Gloster Meteors became operational in 1944

1,400 Me 262s of all versions were produced.

The Me 262 was found during testing to have advantages over the early models of Gloster Meteor. It was faster, had better cockpit visibility to the sides and rear (mostly due to the canopy frame and the discoloration caused by the plastics used in the Meteor's construction), and was a superior gun platform as the early Meteors had a tendency to snake at high speed and exhibited "weak" aileron response.[18] The Me 262 did have a shorter combat range than the Meteor.

AR234 Bomber the Allies did not have a jet bomber.

TA 183 which was to be ready in 45 would have been a leap over Anything the allies had on the drawing board.

me163 rocket interceptors.

The germans had more and better Jets.

[Arthur2sheds_Jackson]

^ the British invented the jet engine aswell Oxy.

BTW what makes you think this could ever have happened?

After Army Group centre captured Moscow,and negotiated a cease fire.

Napolean captured Moscow - it did him no good.
But more importantly why would Stalin agree to a cease fire on one front to allow the germans to conquer the caucasas?

[Oxymoron]

Napolean captured Moscow - it did him no good.

Napolean was given Moscow as part of a strategy kind of like Rope a Dope . the fall of Moscow in 41 would have meant disaster for the Russians forces. At the time LeninGrad was surrounded, Army group center would have intiative forcing Russian reinforcements from Asia to go on the defensive, giving ample opportunity for group south to move to caucuses with out major fighting.

But more importantly why would Stalin agree to a cease fire on one front to allow the germans to conquer the caucasas?

Stalin would have little ability to wage a counter attack given German initiative, Moral would be low, I think perhaps some generals would might make desision to get rid of Stalin or at least put huge pressure on him to make agreement with germany perhaps losing Ukraine and parts of Russia.

[Arthur2sheds_Jackson]

^ Even if the Germans had taken moscow AND held it they would only have conquered 1/3 of the USSR, with a wasteland behind them meaning supply line thousands of miles long. The USSR still had most of its industry to the east of Moscow.

As for the generals a coup by them was extremely unlikely after the purge of the high command in 38/39

[Oxymoron]

Even if the Germans had taken moscow AND held it they would only have conquered 1/3 of the USSR, with a wasteland behind them meaning supply line thousands of miles long. The USSR still had most of its industry to the east of Moscow

I never said the germans would conquer all of Russia, but Stalin would have a real issue making a counter attack at that point so a stale mate position would develop forcing both sides to make an agreement obviously one favouring the Germans.

[MB.]

LOL THIS IS A JOKE THREAD.

[Oxymoron]

LOL THIS IS A JOKE THREAD.

Very constructive their moderator sir.

[ThirdRevolution]

It certainly cannot be ignored that the Red Army was responsible for keeping most of the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS occupied during WWII. The Eastern Front of World War II was the bloodiest single conflict in human history, resulting in over half of the deaths of World War II, and about three times the deaths of World War I.

Ultimately what saved Russia were the twins of General Mud and General Winter. During the Autumn, Germany's narrow tracked Panzers bogged down in the mud of the Autumn rains. And the freezing winters were simply something that the entire German army, from its equipment to its soldiers, was never prepared for.

After the 1941 offensive ground to a hault, Stalin made the critical decision of allowing his generals to have a proper role in planning the war. This is when Hitler's blunder turned ultimately fatal.

The Russian counteroffensives gained back vital ground, and set the stage for Stalingrad, the Wehrmacht's most critical defeat. After in 1943, there was no stopping the Red Army.

Quite accidently, the Russians managed to outpace the Germans in mechanized military tactics. Germany, in reality had two militaries: a high tech mechanized Panzer military completely self-contained, and then massive number of normal infantry divisions still tied to rail and horse.

The Russian Tank Corps and Motor Rifle Divisions that dominated the Red Army's organizational charts ensured that the tank forces remained supported by infantry and artillery, all much more mobile then their German counterparts.

[Beren]

The Soviet Union, at Stalingrad and Kursk.

[AmericanPatriot]

Hitler defeated Hitler. As dumb as that sounds, it's true. Creating a war on two fronts and essentially surrounding one's self with very strong enemies is not a wise move. The Eastern Front was a dumb move and should never have been created. First defeating the Allied forces in Western Europe, and then turning east would have been a wise move.

[Mokeroo]

Hitler defeated Hitler. As dumb as that sounds, it's true. Creating a war on two fronts and essentially surrounding one's self with very strong enemies is not a wise move. The Eastern Front was a dumb move and should never have been created. First defeating the Allied forces in Western Europe, and then turning east would have been a wise move.

well I suspect that might've been something to do with the USSR amassing a lot of forces to their western front - so if the German troops hadn't struck first, the soviets most likely would have. I'd compare it to a pre-emptive strike such as the one in the Six-Day War, only on a larger scale. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was only to eliminate buffer zones that would hinder each side's advance, in addition to territorial gains.

But yes, Hitler did a lot of harm with dumb decisions, much like Stalin (purges) - just Stalin had more human resources, allies, Lend-Lease, so on.

[Potemkin]

well I suspect that might've been something to do with the USSR amassing a lot of forces to their western front - so if the German troops hadn't struck first, the soviets most likely would have. I'd compare it to a pre-emptive strike such as the one in the Six-Day War, only on a larger scale. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was only to eliminate buffer zones that would hinder each side's advance, in addition to territorial gains.

You might be interested in this; on 4 June 1942, Hitler himself had a private conversation with the Finnish leader Mannerheim, in which he described his decision-making process concerning Operation Barbarossa:

Hitler: ...a very serious danger, perhaps the most serious one - it's whole extent we can only now judge. We did not ourselves understand - just how strong this state [the USSR] was armed.

Mannerheim: No, we hadn't thought of this.

Hitler: No, I too, no.

Mannerheim: During the Winter War - during the Winter War we had not even thought of this. Of course...

Hitler: (Interrupting) Yes.

Mannerheim: But so, how they - in reality - and now there is no doubt all they had - what they had in their stocks!

Hitler: Absolutely, This is - they had the most immense armaments that, uh, people could imagine. Well - if somebody had told me that a country - with...(Hitler is interrupted by the sound of a door opening and closing.) If somebody had told me a nation could start with 35,000 tanks, then I'd have said: "You are crazy!"

Mannerheim: Thirty-five?

Hitler: Thirty-five thousand tanks.

Another Voice In Background: Thirty-five thousand! Yes!

Hitler: We have destroyed - right now - more than 34,000 tanks. If someone had told me this, I'd have said: "You!" If you are one of my generals had stated that any nation has 35,000 tanks I'd have said: "You, my good sir, you see everything twice or ten times. You are crazy; you see ghosts." This I would have deemed possible. I told you earlier we found factories, one of them at Kramatorskaja, for example, Two years ago there were just a couple hundred [tanks]. We didn't know anything. Today, there is a tank plant, where - during the first shift a little more than 30,000, and 'round the clock a little more than 60,000, workers would have labored - a single tank plant! A gigantic factory! Masses of workers who certainly, lived like animals and...

Another Voice In Background: (Interrupting) In the Donets area?

Hitler: In the Donets area. (Background noises from the rattling of cups and plates over the exchange.)

Mannerheim: Well, if you keep in mind they had almost 20 years, almost 25 years of - freedom to arm themselves...

Hitler: (Interrupting quietly) It was unbelievable.

Mannerheim: And everything - everything spent on armament.

Hitler: Only on armament.

Mannerheim: Only on armament!

Hitler: (Sighs) Only - well, it is - as I told your president [Ryte] before - I had no idea of it. If I had an idea - then I would have been even more difficult for me, but I would have taken the decision [to invade] anyhow, because - there was no other possibility. It was - certain, already in the winter of '39/ '40, that the war had to begin. I had only this nightmare - but there is even more! Because a war on two fronts - would have been impossible - that would have broken us. Today, we see more clearly - than we saw at that time - it would have broken us. And my whole - I originally wanted to - already in the fall of '39 I wanted to conduct the campaign in the west - on the continuously bad weather we experienced hindered us.

Our whole armament - you know, was - is a pure good weather armament. It is very capable, very good, but it is unfortunately just a good-weather armament. We have seen this in the war. Our weapons naturally were made for the west, and we all thought, and this was true 'till that time, uh, it was the opinion from the earliest times: you cannot wage war in winter. And we too, have, the German tanks, they weren't tested, for example, to prepare them for winter war. Instead we conducted trials to prove it was impossible to wage war in winter. That is a different starting point [than the Soviet's]. In the fall of 1939 we always faced the question. I desperately wanted to attack, and I firmly believed we could finish France in six weeks.

However, we faced the question of whether we could move at all - it was raining continuously. And I know the French area myself very well and I too could not ignore the opinions, of many of my generals that, we - probably - would not have had the élan, that our tank arm would not have been, effective, that our air force could not been effective from our airfields because of the rain.

I know northern France myself. You know, I served in the Great War for four years. And - so the delay happened. If I had in '39 eliminated France, then world history would have changed. But I had to wait 'till 1940, and unfortunately it wasn't possible before May. Only on the 10th of May was the first nice day - and on the 10th of May I immediately attacked. I gave the order to attack on the 10th on the 8th. And - then we had to, conduct this huge transfer of our divisions from the west to the east.

First the occupation of - then we had the task in Norway - at the same time we faced - I can frankly say it today - a grave misfortune, namely the - weakness of, Italy. Because of - first, the situation in North Africa, then, second, because of the situation in Albania and Greece - a very big misfortune. We had to help. This meant for us, with one small stoke, first - the splitting of our air force, splitting our tank force, while at the same time we were preparing, the, tank arm in the east. We had to hand over - with one stroke, two divisions, two whole divisions and a third was then added - and we had to replace continuous, very severe, losses there. It was - bloody fighting in the desert.

This all naturally was inevitable, you see. I had a conversation with Molotov [Soviet Minister] at that time, and it was absolutely certain that Molotov departed with the decision to begin a war, and I dismissed the decision to begin a war, and I dismissed him with the decision to - impossible, to forestall him. There was - this was the only - because the demands that man brought up were clearly aimed to rule, Europe in the end. (Practically whispering here.) Then I have him - not publicly...(fades out).

Already in the fall of 1940 we continuously faced the question, uh: shall we, consider a break up [in relations with the USSR]? At that time, I advised the Finnish government, to - negotiate and, to gain time and, to act dilatory in this matter - because I always feared - that Russia suddenly would attack Romania in the late fall - and occupy the petroleum wells, and we would have not been ready in the late fall of 1940. If Russia indeed had taken Romanian petroleum wells, than Germany would have been lost. It would have required - just 60 Russian divisions to handle that matter.

In Romania we had of course - at that time - no major units. The Romanian government had turned to us only recently - and what we did have there was laughable. They only had to occupy the petroleum wells. Of course, with our weapons I could not start a, war in September or October. That was out of the question. Naturally, the transfer to the east wasn't that far advanced yet. Of course, the units first had to reconsolidate in the west. First the armaments had to be taken care of because we too had - yes, we also had losses in our campaign in the west. It would have been impossible to attack - before the spring of 19, 41. And if the Russians at that time - in the fall of 1940 - had occupied Romania - taken the petroleum wells, then we would have been, helpless in 1941.

Another Voice In Background: Without petroleum...

Hitler: (Interrupting) We had huge German production: however, the demands of the air force, our Panzer divisions - they are really huge. It is level of consumption that surpasses the imagination. And without the addition of four to five million tons of Romanian petroleum, we could not have fought the war - and would have had to let it be - and that was my big worry. Therefore I aspired to, bridge the period of negotiations 'till we would be strong enough to, counter those extortive demands [from Moscow] because - those demands were simply naked extortion's. They were extortion's. The Russians knew we were tied up in the west. They could really extort everything from us. Only when Molotov visited - then - I told him frankly that the demands, their numerous demands, weren't acceptable to us. With that the negotiations came to an abrupt end that same morning.

There were four topics. The one topic that, involved Finland was, the, freedom to protect themselves from the Finnish threat, he said. [I said] You do not want to tell me Finland threatens you! But he said: "In Finland it is - they who take action against the, friends, of the Soviet Union. They would [take action] against [our] society, against us - they would continuously, persecute us and, a great power cannot be threatened by a minor country."

I said: "Your, existence isn't threatened by Finland! That is, you don't mean to tell me..."

Mannerheim: (Interrupting) Laughable!

Hitler: "...that your existence is threatened by Finland?" Well [he said] there was a moral - threat being made against a great power, and what Finland was doing, that was a moral - a threat to their moral existence. Then I told him we would not accept a further war in the Baltic area as passive spectators. In reply he asked me how we viewed our position in, Romania. You know, we had given them a guarantee. [He wanted to know] if that guarantee was directed against Russia as well? And that time I told him: "I don't think it is directed at you, because I don't think you have the intention of attacking Romania. You have always stated that Bessarabia is yours, but that you have - never stated that you want to attack Romania!"

"Yes," he told me, but he wanted to know more precisely if this guarantee...(A door opens and the recording ends.)