Roxunreal wrote:By deploying some of the twelve thousand airplanes that were originally used to fight the Soviets to Italy, Sicily and Axis North Africa, overwhelmingly bombing Malta and taking it, and using the planes in general against the RN and RAF to provide a significantly more secure naval and air supply line. But sorry, that must be magic and not common sense and a perfectly plausible possibility right I mean ten thousand airplanes is totally irrelevant and insignificant.
Oh, wait and you are saying that UK had deployed all their air force in Africa? They can't deploy more?
The 80% (EIGHTY PERCENT) of overall German military cassualties in WW2 happening on the Eastern front is meaningless right?
Strawman, no one said those
casaualities were meaningless.
Having four times as much military and associated resources to battle Britain is meaningless?
When BoB was fought, there was no second front.
They couldn't have contributed in the effort of both fighting in and supplying North Africa, total science fiction because the guy that claims Britain can beat Germany alone without ever even fighting it says so.
Until you have a plan for how, no they couldn't as historically they were not able to supply and support the small afrika korps.
Explained above, next.
No nothing has been explained, just wishful thinking.
No it can't, and Preston explained this to you but you keep ignoring the fact that crossing a narrow strait between Denmark and Sweden is not the same as crossing the Mediterranean to Africa.
And how many ports were in Sweeden? What is the distance of that port to troehindem? How many trucks Germany have to supply such large distances on such an infrastructure, yeah of course disregard every single logistical fact? Then, how the fuck Germany which was unable to supply Africa, now will also supply Scandinavia
and Africa simultaneously.
But then again if the UK can so easily do that then why didn't it?
Because they invaded continental Europe?, history check.
A feat that they are unable to do in this scenario.
Yeah, everything that ever goes against the UK in WW2 is a myth based on your objective thinking. It's probably also a myth that the British rationed basic food and petrol throughout most of the war as well, because of this irrelevant U-boat threat.
Rationing happened in every country as you can't predict future but with hindsight we know that u boats were not a threat. But I see how you have ignored the entire wiki page which has explicitly said that
less than 1% of atlantic convoys were sunken. Are you saying that, this data is wrong?
Maybe it's even a myth that Churchill himself said the following:
And churchill was wrong. Is every churchill's word to be taken at face value. why don't you challenge the wiki page instead and her sources with concrete data?
Once again are you claiming that the data provided is wrong? If yes then provide your own with sources.
Oh yes sorry for not noticing how strategically irrelevant the U-boat threat was
Yes it was totally and utterly irrelevant as supported by my data.
Text copied from Wikipedia where a source for it isn't provided
It has been provided at the bottom of my post along with other sources that were used, now pay more attention to real arguments.
Again as shown above Churchill must have really been so scared of that less than one percent of supply ships not reaching Britain that he would say that the entire war rested on it
So your whole argument lies on the back of one churchill quote, the whole historical hard facts can go fuck themselves.
which could have been written by you for all anyone knows and for all the objectivity the whole "Assesment" part of the article in question reeks of. Self-named "sober" assesment
You know, wikipedia does list her sources at the bottom of page, try that. Three different sources for that.
Building first and pioneering the field means they were leading developers in it and had the mostexperience,
And? At least compare the aircraft and please tell how it gave German an winning age. Use some hard facts pleas.
nd again had the Eastern front not taken such a toll on resources would have probably made even better jet planes without some of the issues that plagued them
Yes, with GDP ratio being 1:.2, Germany will simply build more of everything, more ships, more merchant shipping, more planes, you name it and they will just build it. With no Normandy to fight, Britain will build more planes, so there's that too.
More faster planes are needed.
I was talking historically only in here.
No, when I write "no doubt" I mean there is no doubt because a logical fact based conclusion prevents there being any doubt for anyone who isn't ideologically biased. For example a conclusion based on the numbers of German forces deployed in the east which overshadowed all its forces deployed elsewhere combined by multiple factors.
No, there is no logic. And speaking of logic suddenly eastern front men can't reach England either by flying or swimming or magic.
Um, perhaps the resources that went into the building of weapons that were destroyed by the heaps on the eastern front every day?
So, you still can't answer specifically, i see.
They could probably conquer Britain and North Africa with half as many tanks as were ever deployed on the vast eastern front
So, after asking nth time, you still won't answer the logistical problem, good. Keep dodging that as it seems to be the only way out of this problem.
and still use the facilities that went into building the other half to actually build a respectable jet fighter/bomber force.
And Uk will just sit and watch? If they are halving everything, UK has complete superiority in almost every weapon category, oh wait but they are fucking Germans, how can you stop them. or may be UK will react, a very common phenomenon during any war and they will build more jet planes too or is this just inconceivable?
They will maintain a routine standing force, there is no reason whatsoever to maintain anything near the size of the invasion force that participated ijn Barbarossa.
Obviously, so there will be forces there unlike your original comment.
With factories razed to the ground by the eastern half of the Luftwaffe and ore shippments on the bottom of the Atlantic courtesy of Jabos
And when did those factories were razed? 1st BoB? or only Germany gets to prepare for 2nd BoB and not Uk because it suits your premise? Germany has already funneled her resources while UK just sits. How you fight against this logic?
And no U boats aren't damaging anything or if you are so sure why don't you share your numbers with us as what percentage of Atlantic convoys were sunk during the war?
Yes I know, you really hate that our scenario gives Germany such a numerical advantage when they don't have to waste it in the east
A numerical advantage that she can't bring on off shore fronts, please don't ignore my points and pretend that I never said anything regarding this. Its you who have failed completely to tell how they will bring this number off shore.
You're probably just gonna whine that Britain can manufacture twelve thousand airplanes more too if it wants to or some similar nonsense, just like that.
Oh, the irony.
btw its you who is constantly saying Germany will produce x, y, z just like that. And for your information UK did build more airplanes than Germany in the war.
Yes everything is fantasy if British (the real) fanboy doesn't like it. The Eastern front was probably a fantasy too as were all the German forces that participated in it.
Strawman.
I already told you. By having more than a myriad more of planes and pilots available to make it come in existance, as well as having a superior and more massive jet programme. But keep ignoring this.
Now, don't lie. I have addressed this point in detail, if it doesn't fits in with your fantasy scenario, that's not my fault. But just to help you once again I will repeat myself again.
1. What is myriad more of planes? What more percentage will they have?
2. Why Britain won't produce more planes in this scenario?
3. Britain also had jet program, please prove that Germany had had much better program giving them battle winning edge.
It's not like the RAF were not in a dire situation in late August 1940 only in the end saved by Hitler's incompetence (and no, this is not a myth and your word alone calling it such despite historical data showing otherwise means nothing)
Yes its a myth and RAF was not in dire situation but you do forgot that in the end it was Luftwaffe who got the severe pounding. RAF had more plane in August than in last months where as Luftwaffe less. Yeah, please check historical facts, beside it was not Hitler's decision alone, many in Luftwaffe command wanted a switch in the strategy as the former was not being effective. Also Hitler is still alive in this scenario.
I just outlined it above, the situation for Fighter Command was very serious just before Hitler started bombing cities
No. See above and
From "The Most Dangerous Enemy by Stephen Bungay":
13 August
RAF fighter force = 579
Luftwaffe fighter force = 1042
7 September when the switch was made
RAF fighter force = 621
Luftwaffe fighter force = 770 i.e RAF is in much better shape compared to Luftwaffe at the time when switch was made.
But don't let historical facts spoil your fantasy.
Brits were not under their own radar coverage but Germans were in the time when Germany was being strategically bombed every day, didn't help the germans much now did it?
It did, Allies losses were much higher than Germans, what made Germany loose was attrition as allies can simply produce much much more than Germany, no such case in here. Just compare the GDP of allies and Germany and Germany and UK for this scenario.
Yes, I must really be influenced by video games for knowing and accepting something as plainly obvious as that there will be nowhere in the fuck near the amount of German forces on the Russian border in peace time as there was when they actually had a huge fucking country to conquer. It must be either "magic" or "video games", or "fanboysm". But never numbers, common sense and logic.
Yes. As you are absolutely not paying attention to UK's situation. As UK also produced all those weapons you are talking about and only Tanks and Machine guns are the weapons where Germany has more than double number. Everything else is comparable.
And you had Germany building more U boats more merchant shipping more planes this is just magic nothing else, also completely forgetting that Britain can also curtail many of her original production and match Germany. As She produced more planes more trucks more mortars more ships (no Japan less ships more planes), see how easy was that. I still can't see this edge of Germany.
Landing craft are easy as fuck to mass produce, even ones that can transport a few tanks. Give it a few years and they can do this with ease, it doesn't have to be 1940.
Along with surface ships? So basically they will simply produce more of everything? But when I said that they can't support them I meant supplies i.e. merchant shipping, oh wait but they will built them too. This time they are just building like crazy.
Didn't stop the Germans all the way until their capital was laid to ruin 5 years later
Because she also happened to be in control of Ukrainian farms? A point that has already been made.
Puny U-boats that made Churchill shit himself and ration basic life necessities for most of the war you mean?
Oh, please stop using Churchill, why don't you show me some
real data instead to support your hypothesis?
Already explained
No it hasn't been. You people even't have touched logistical problems let alone neutralizing RN in mediterrarian.
Scandinavia can be relatively easilly supplied by land and small ship connection in the strait if under real threat
Now this has already been explained, so I will just requote me.
fuser wrote:And how many ports were in Sweeden? What is the distance of that port to troehindem? How many trucks Germany have to supply such large distances on such an infrastructure, yeah of course disregard every single logistical fact? Then, also me, how the fuck Germany which was unable to supply Africa, now will also supply Scandinavia and Africa .
Planes sink ships. Simples.
Nothing is simple in warfare as apparently you ignored my norwegian campaign example. And there is no air superiority here anyway.
Large parts of the linked articles that relate to what we are discussing are unsourced, so any, *ahem* fanboy can go in and write that Britain can walk into berlin simply by blockading the Atlantic, but it won't really make it true though.
No the segment that I have linked are fully cited and sourced, so this excuse that its Wikipedia won't cut here. But I do noted that you have yet provided "0" sources of your own.
Again for the record, calling me a fanboy out of some butthurt frustration
Oh, please. I didn't called you fanboy but john rawls and you tried to defend him heroically by calling me fanboy. And now suddenly you are angry that you have been called that too but you weren't that angry when you used the term for me.
that millions of people and tens of thousands of pieces of military and attack vehicles being made available for use in the BoB and Med/NA campaigns wouldn't make much of a difference, which is an intensely absurd notion.
Stop repeating yourself. For the last time, repeating a wrong 100 times won't make it right.
1. You haven't even touched logistical problems. Millions of troops and equipment won't be suddenly teleported to off shore fronts.
2. UK also had tens of thousands of equipment and can react to changes.
3. They did fought BoB without another front.
4. Germany had to maintain a much larger army than UK because of their continental position.
5. Which means Britain can pour more resources on naval and air arms compared to Germany specially with no Japanese front.
6. German Navy can never escort Transport ships with RN lurking in the water.
7. Even with air superiority in Norwegian campaign, Germany lost 40% of her surface fleets.
8. Germany don't have merchant shipping, enough trucks to supply off shore troops.
9. Naval superiority + huge stockpile of merchant shipping means UK can effectively invade and occupy off shore fronts.
10. Blockade and its effect are historical facts for all to see. If you doubt my numbers, please provide your own.
11. Air superiority for either side is yet to be established here, I am not giving any side an edge but you are, hence you will have to do more than "we have jet planes" as UK also have and there isn't any technical advantage for any side.
12. They will produce more will not cut as UK can also produce more (no Japanese front + no Normandy invasion etc) too.