[Zionist Nationalist]

You cant really compare the tiny peace of land called Gaza strip with the west bank

in Gaza there were 15K or 10K people I dont really know but not alot in the west bank its more than 250K now thats a "bit" more complicated situation. also if the west bank will start the same shit that is going on in Gaza it will be in ruins and their ecomony that lately after the intifada started to be pretty good will be destroyed. they have alredy experienced it I think most of the sane people there dont need any conflict.

[Maas]

not really complicated.
The longer the peace settlement is prosponed the more the Jew nations steals and moves in more and more settlements, and drains their water away. Their is no real other reason why Israel is fiercely against the Palestinians being a country recognized by the UN.

[Rich]

Africa is a mess, primarily due to western hands,.

Yes that's right, Africa was fine till Europe showed up and started the international slave trade and kicked out all the Muslims humanitarian aid workers.

Some Jews collaborated with the Nazis. so what? A huge out amount of western business did business with Nazi Germany. Those that helped Jews to leave Nazi Germany are to be praised. Lets face it no one was going to invade Germany for the sake of the Jews. They had to look after themselves.

Of course the great protector of Jews in Eastern Europe was the Soviet Union, but by the time they liberated Auschwitz in 1945 it was too late. I wish people would take a little more effort to understand the period. The Nazis while vile and unpleasant definitely but they did not seem like the bad guys when they took power in 1933. Remember when the Nazis came to power the Soviet Union had already completed two holocausts, Auschwitz wasn't even a gleam in Heydrich's eye. Jews dominated the international Communist movement, and probably still do today. Even anti-Zionism relies heavily on Jewish intellectuals. The Lenin Trotsky government was in name one and a quarter Jewish. But even Lenin who was three quarters non Jewish thought that anything good in Russia had been created by the Jews. Imagine if an Israeli politician said that about the Middle East today. But Lenin's allowed to because he was leftie. For a while after Lenin's death four figures vied for power Trotsky, Kamanev, Zinoviev and Stalin. Most observers were very surprised when the non Jew of the four emerged as leader. Trotsky had advised that it wouldn't look good to have a Jew running the Checka although Lenin offered him the job. Although American fantasy world now tries to portray Stalin as anti Jewish, he was first to put a Jew Yagoda in charge the Checka's successor organisation. Stalin only hated the Jews as he hated the rest of humanity. I say this not to argue some ridiculous collective responsibility nonsense, but to puncture this notion that some how Jew's have just been innocent victims in the pre 1945 world conflicts.

Wanting their own homeland was totally reasonable at the time, even from an internationalist perspective. Jews needed a country of their own where they could live with dignity. Ironically just as the Jews were setting up their ethnic national state, the Europeans were just beginning the destruction of theirs. And not out of some noble international multiculturalism, but out of a desire for cheap labour. So Israel is judged by the standards of the other Western democracies, but exists in a situation where such standards are a pipe dream.

[Smilin' Dave]

Remember when the Nazis came to power the Soviet Union had already completed two holocausts

What are you referring to?

Jews dominated the international Communist movement

Looking at the Soviet experience: of the 23 People's Commissars in 1917, five were Jewish... that's not exactly dominance. Particularly if you consider some might not have considered themselves Jewish. For example:

The Lenin Trotsky government was in name one and a quarter Jewish.

Neither identified as Jewish. I suspect had people not gone out of their way to research their background, that no one would have realised they were Jewish.

But even Lenin who was three quarters non Jewish thought that anything good in Russia had been created by the Jews.

Yeah, but he claimed similar things about the Volga Germans. In what context did he make that statement?

Trotsky had advised that it wouldn't look good to have a Jew running the Checka although Lenin offered him the job.

Which seems really odd since Dzerzhinsky was about as Jewish as Trotsky...

I say this not to argue some ridiculous collective responsibility nonsense, but to puncture this notion that some how Jew's have just been innocent victims in the pre 1945 world conflicts.

Whenever someone brings out the old 'Jewish Bolshevism' tropes, they tread on unstable ground. And when you claim whole political movements are dominated by certain groups, it's difficult to argue that you are not making statements about a collective (albeit not explicitly assigning blame).

[Eran]

My main concern is with grouping all Jews into a single group.

If we are to be accurate, we would say that some Jews have been behind the Communist Revolution and the atrocities that revolution brought about.

Other Jews have been victims of Nazi holocaust, and other forms of persecution.

But we no longer believe in collective responsibility. Thus those two facts are morally completely unrelated.

[pugsville]

I dont think language like "Israel brought the world nothing but strife since its inception." helps. It's not true and dangerously close to outright racism. Sure the Palestinian experience of the creation of Israel and the occupation has been almost totally bad. But most Israelis are just people, many great people who have done good things. I dont like the extremists settlers, and condemn many actions of the Israeli government but that is distinct from the Israeli people, or Jewish people Generally. I condemn Palestinian Terrorist acts and don't like Hamas.

Sure some very small number of Jews conspired with Nazis. Some British, Some Russians, Some French, Some Indians, Some Palestinians. Historical curio. Making way too much importance to pretty unimportant stuff. Mostly it was desperation and enemy of my enemy stuff. The worst I know about was those Frenchmen who glady actively worked on helping the Nazis mass murder Jews when they really did not have to. But I'm not condemning the whole french Nation.

[Rich]

Whenever someone brings out the old 'Jewish Bolshevism' tropes, they tread on unstable ground. And when you claim whole political movements are dominated by certain groups, it's difficult to argue that you are not making statements about a collective (albeit not explicitly assigning blame).

Its not in the slightest bit difficult unless you're a Conservative. Don't try and lay nationalist racist nonsense on me.

There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution, by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews, it is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders. Thus Tchitcherin, a pure Russian, is eclipsed by his nominal subordinate Litvinoff, and the influence of Russians like Bukharin or Lunacharski cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky, or of Zinovieff, the Dictator of the Red Citadel (Petrograd) or of Krassin or Radek -- all Jews. In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combating Counter-Revolution has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses. The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in the brief period of terror during which Bela Kun ruled in Hungary. The same phenomenon has been presented in Germany (especially in Bavaria), so far as this madness has been allowed to prey upon the temporary prostration of the German people. Although in all these countries there are many non-Jews every whit as bad as the worst of the Jewish revolutionaries, the part played by the latter in proportion to their numbers in the population is astonishing.

My emphasis.

These facts caused absolutely zero problems for the internationalists of the times. But the potential for genocide was inherent with Conservatism both amongst ethnic Europeans and with Muslims as we saw with the Armenian genocide. The Bolsheviks were wrong about the economic foundation of the first world war. The war was caused by Conservative ideologies, not by some Capitalist crisis of profitability. However it is arguable that the Bolshevik terror state was necessary defence against Conservative terrorism. If the Whites had won the Russian civil war, it surely seems likely that they would have genocided the Jews much earlier, than their German Nazi brothers did in reality. Even the 1956 Hungarian uprising had anti Jewish slogans.

[Smilin' Dave]

Don't try and lay nationalist racist nonsense on me.

Then try not to dish up old racist nonsense. The early Dumas had a large representation of Jews, yet no one goes on about Jewish Tsarism do they? Just to emphasise the point, the majority of those delegates came from the Kadets, a political party that swung between republicanism or constitutional monarchy - hardly a movement of the far left.

Am I supposed to be impressed that Churchill promoted the idea of Jewish Bolshevism too? It was hardly unknown for Churchill to be bigotted and ill informed in his writings.

But the potential for genocide was inherent with Conservatism both amongst ethnic Europeans and with Muslims as we saw with the Armenian genocide.

I think claiming the CUP in the Ottoman empire was run of the mill conservative is a bit simplistic. The CUP promoted itself as a reformist group, and it had largely displaced the old government which had been in operation for a considerable period prior (ie. the status quo).

[Rich]

Then try not to dish up old racist nonsense. The early Dumas had a large representation of Jews, yet no one goes on about Jewish Tsarism do they? Just to emphasise the point, the majority of those delegates came from the Kadets, a political party that swung between republicanism or constitutional monarchy - hardly a movement of the far left.

Your posts portray the success of the big Conservative lie. The Conservatives have trained people to react like Pavlovian dogs to any criticism of the modern pro Zionist Conservative narrative. Once you see what these Conservatives are up to you realise what a bunch of comediennes they are. So they will start accusing people of anti Semitism, who have become besotted with the works of Naom Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein. In Britain the Socialist Workers party get accused of being anti Semitic despite the fact that it was created and led for fifty years by an ethnic Jew and when he died he was replaced with another ethnic Jew. Of course the Jews would have dominated ethnic European Conservatism if they had got the chance. In America a space for Jews has opened up with in Conservatism, perhaps pioneered by Joseph McCarthy. The inevitable result is that Jews dominate American Conservatism, in the same way as they dominate maths, physics, philosophy and just about every intellectual / artistic domain. By pointing to ethnic Jewish domination of Communism in the early twentieth century, I am not excusing the Nazis, just trying to point out that it was quite natural for Conservatism to express its inherently murderous tendencies towards the Jews. I have a problem, because I can't express my anti- Conservative terrorist views on this forum without getting them censored. So I will have to try and talk round the matter to avoid censorship. I consider any member of the Nazi party or its organisations to be a party to murder even prior to their taking power in 1933. I consider it was the right of any Liberal whether Jewish or not to take preventative action against any member of the Nazi party. Whether it was tactically right to exercise that right and in what way is another matter.

Am I supposed to be impressed that Churchill promoted the idea of Jewish Bolshevism too? It was hardly unknown for Churchill to be bigoted and ill informed in his writings.

No you supposed to be unimpressed. Conservatives didn't come much more pro Jewish than Churchill at this time. The passage demonstrates the inherently latent anti Jewish potential within ethnic Christian Conservatism that still exists to this day.

I think claiming the CUP in the Ottoman empire was run of the mill conservative is a bit simplistic. The CUP promoted itself as a reformist group, and it had largely displaced the old government which had been in operation for a considerable period prior (ie. the status quo).

There was no standard Conservatism because Conservatism was in turmoil through out the world. In fact Conservatism only has meaning within an era of change, where it is impossible for the old order to survive in its original form and even Conservatism must reinvent itself in hybrid form. I am suggesting that the moderation and superficial relative civility that has characterised Conservatism of say Britain and Scandinavia, has been the exception due to immensely propitious conditions not the norm.

[Smilin' Dave]

Your posts portray the success of the big Conservative lie.

Terrific, a conspiracy theory.

So they will start accusing people of anti Semitism, who have become besotted with the works of Naom Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein.

Chomsky and Finkelstein, pillars of the conservative political complex?

I am not excusing the Nazis, just trying to point out that it was quite natural for Conservatism to express its inherently murderous tendencies towards the Jews.

- You haven't established that conservativism is inherently murderous. Most of your examples of conservative regimes haven't been that conservative.
- You haven't established Jews were a 'natural' target. Your prime argument for this, Jewish Bolshevism, is a nonsense and about the only defence for it is that people at the time might have believed it anyway, but that still doesn't explain how they could believe something so ridiculous in the first place.

There was no standard Conservatism because Conservatism was in turmoil through out the world.

Conservativism is actually quite easy to define irrespective of era, it's about the maintenance of traditional institutions/pillars in society. The CUP was not maintaining this, their reformist agenda and tendency towards Turkish nationalism were alien in the Ottoman empire prior to that date.

[Sephardi]

Dude...you TOOK their homes! Their land! Hell anyone would be pissed off.

No... The Israelis WON the land when the Arabs attacked them after declaring independence of the Jewish-majority lands in "Palestine". The "Palestinians" are whining about it now because they lost. The fact of the matter is, it was the Jews who accepted the 1947 partition plan, and the Arabs rejected it. Because of this, anything that they say is pretty much a loser whining because he lost the war, and now is going to the UN instead of being a man about it.

And guess what... the Arabs are a foreign group in that part of the Middle East. They are originally from Arabia. Did you forget that the Caliphate conquered and slaughtered its way through the middle east and destroyed native populations almost completely? Where are the Egyptians? They don't exist anymore! Arabs are now 99% or more of Egypt's population.

And waton wins this thread.

[Eran]

No... The Israelis WON the land when the Arabs attacked them after declaring independence of the Jewish-majority lands in "Palestine".

You are confused. The land wasn't won from the people who attacked Israel, only from people who happen to speak the same language.

The land was owned predominantly by innocent farmers who took no action against Israel. That Israel was attacked by other people who speak the same language is certainly not an excuse to dispossess those innocents, just as murder of innocent Palestinians by some Israelis is not an excuse to murder other, innocent Israelis.

And guess what... the Arabs are a foreign group in that part of the Middle East.

So are Jews, at least if you believe the Bible...

[Rich]

The fact of the matter is, it was the Jews who accepted the 1947 partition plan, and the Arabs rejected it.

Well of course they rejected it. The Jewish state under the plan was 45% Arab. That the Zionists would use murder and terror to cleanse their area and steal the Arabs property was implicit in the plan. no one cared about the Arabs apart from a few British colonial romantics. Stalin didn't care about the Arabs, America didn't care about the Arabs. Do you think the French cared about the Arabs, when many Arbs had supported the Nazis rather than their French colonial masters? They just wanted Arabs to do what they were hold. The Zionist terror and murder of 47/48 was sanctioned by the international regime community of the time. The powers that be essentially supported the murder and terror that was used to cleanse the Sudetenland. Most ethnic Europeans weren't that arsed about what befell the Germans. If they weren't arsed about Germans they certainly weren't going to be arsed about the Arabs.

The problem is a large aspect of European history has been covered up. I mean most people are not even aware that we used German slave labour after the war. So the Zionist behaviour looks bad set against the fantasy.

[Eran]

Indeed it is interesting to see how pro-Israelis treat the U.N. reverentially as a body having both moral and legal authority in 1947, but completely change their attitudes once U.N. resolutions cease to be as one-sidedly pro-Israeli.