[Demosthenes]

Ok, this is the age old debate, correct? I don't care really if you like one or the other because you love the good ole' US of A or if you are a Russophile. I want the best carbine/assault rifle for my buck.

Here are my observations from recent testing on a variety of playing fields. I have not yet tested either extensively (Fired 500 rounds or more) but I have at at least purchased and fired a minimum of 100 rounds.

Cost: AK, hands down. I know in Benin they are $20, but here in the states I found one with a bayonette that I'll never use for $500. That's a decent enough price though I hear rumblings about being able to get them cheaper. Bear in mind this is the standard 7.62 x 39 version.

The M-16 knockoff is about twice the price.

Weight: Without a clip the AK is actually lighter. Loaded, the 5.56 ammo clearly helps balance the issue, but it's 5.56 not 7.62. If it takes three rounds to kill something... Anyway, I give this to the AK.

Ergonomics: This one is a push but I really am surprised by how well I like the AK. It's an amazing feeling weapon that I can already tell will very easily feel like a bodily extension with some more practice. I don't get that at all from the M-16 knockoff. It's bulky and heavy.

Versatility: This one goes to the M-16. You can attach just about anything to it in under two minutes if you know what you are doing. Mine is tricked out just because, with a laser, scope, and tactical flashlight. The AK is much more difficult to deal with (though this may only be in North America) when "personalizing". One major point though, The AK really doesn't need much of this. It is an amazing weapons "right out of the box".

Accuracy: Hands down AK! OMG! With just the open sight this weapon is deadly! No wonder insurgents everywhere swear by them! I am seriously impressed. The M-16 jumps quite a bit when fired and I have a little trouble stabilizing it. The AK does so to a lesser degree and just hits what I'm aiming at. I was very, very surprised. I really expected the two to be more competitive.

Looks: This one is totally subjective. The M-16 looks very "standard" to me. It's not pretty, nor awesome, nor ugly, nor anything else. It just is. The AK is one ugly sonofabitch, and that is strangely attractive.

Cost to fire: For me, they are pretty close. 20 rounds of 7.62 x 39 are about $6 and 20 rounds of 5.56 are about $6.50.

Kill Factor: Yes, this is the "Trekkie" part of the thread. Truth is, I'll hopefully never have to shoot anyone. At any rate, I have a hard time buying the "yaw" concept of the 5.56 as making it deadlier. Secondly, when figuring accuracy into the equation, it seems to me the AK just takes the cake. Bigger round and more accurate with little need for accessories. (I wouldn't mind a laser for night ops or something, but I'm not even sure I could mount anything I can find locally on it anyway).

(Night Ops... ... yeah, right!)

These are my early perceptions. I am an amateur and have far more experience with pistolas than either of these two weapons. Both of these are the civilian single-fire semi-auto versions. Both are completely legal to own in my state and were purchased completely legally. I can't make any claims for any other versions of these weapons, though I am happy to hear stories or see pics of variants or military grade versions that any of you have personally used, own, or experienced first hand!

[Cartertonian]

Clearly neither option is available to me as a private citizen in the UK.

The older of us in HM Armed Forces still mourn the loss of our FN-FAL Self-Loading Rifle, both for its ambidextrous utility AND its 7.62 round.

When our current plastic POS, the SA-80, first went U/S, there was some talk about buying AK or M-16 'off the shelf', but the politicians insisted that we had to give the jobs to the UK arms industry and ordered a complete re-engineering of the plastic POS...so we've still got it.

I'd buy the AK, buy the way.

[U184]

Both great for their times, however times change. So, might I suggest 2 alternatives?
SHOOTRITE KATANA

Barrel: 16-inch thin profile, with standard A2 diameter for sight base.
by E.R. Shaw
Flash Suppressor: Standard A2
Upper Receiver: Les Baer, Flattop w/o forward assist.
Daniel Defense, MPI bolt.
Modifications to bolt assembly:
Chrome silicon extractor and ejector springs.
Original solid firing pin retaining pin.
Bevel edge of ejector for feeding reliability.
Charging Handle: Bravo Company Gunfighter
Ejection Port Cover: Mil-Spec.
Gas Tube and Pin: Mil-Spec.
Handguard: Hiperform, Carbon Fiber one-piece unit.
Refinished in satin black, with sling mount and light rail.
Front Sight: Mil-Spec A2, with spring and detent.
Light Rail: 2 ” Picitiny Rail Mounted to handguard at 11:00 for right hand shooter.
(Rail bolted with washers and thin nylock nuts and epoxied to handguard.)
Front Sling Mount: Attached to handguard @ 6:00 position.
(Bolted and expoxied as light rail.)
Rear Sight: Daniel Defense, A1.5.
Katana Parts List – Lower
Lower: Daniel Defense Mil Spec.
(Logo engraved, manufacturer name, and Katana serial number to match upper.)
Internal Parts: Mil-Spec internals
Stock (Standard): Fulton Armory, A1 stock, with sling mount attached to left side, for right-handed shooter. (Bolted and epoxied as light rail\.)
(Requires filling in hole from original sling mount, and painting flat black.)
Stock (Optional):Magpul CTR, commercial dia. retractable 6 position stock
Grip: DuckBill Tactical Grip.

Or

The Masada & here is a PDF breakdown.

Type / action gas operated, rotating bolt
Caliber(s) 5.56x45 / .223 Rem, possibly others such as 7.62x39 M43
Weightunloaded 3.3 kg
Length 716 mm / 28.2" folded, 947 mm / 37.3" stock fully extended
Barrel length 406 mm / 16" (also 318mm / 12.5", 368mm / 14.5" and 457mm / 18")
Magazinecapacity 30 rounds

The Masada rifle was developed by US-based company Magpul Industries,which became famous for its line of aftermarket accessories and replacement parts for firearms. Work on the new modular rifle, suitable for civilian, police and military applications and designed more or less along the lines of the SCAR program commenced in 2006. First prototypes were shown to the public in 2007 at ShotShow, and early in 2008 it was announced that new rifle (previously known as Masada) willbe mass produced by famous American gun-making company Bushmaster Firearms. Current plans are to introduce civilian and police(semi-automatic) versions in mid-2009, with military select-fire version scheduled for production in late 2009. It is also planned to introduce Masada / BushmasterACR rifles in 5.56mm / .223 Rem caliber; other calibers might followlater. Magpul also is developing a 7.62x51 / .308 Win version of the Masada / ACR rifle, provisionally known as Masoud. It is still in early development and no information is available on its date of release to the public.

The Masada/ BushmasterACR rifle is gas operated, semi-automatic or selective-fired (Military version only) weapon of modular design. It utilizes aluminium allo yupper receiver, with polymer pistol grip / trigger / magazine housing(lower receiver) unit which is attached to the upper receiver using cross-pins. Various types of lower receivers are planned to accommodate different types of magazines (i.e. Ar-15 type magazines as opposed to AK-type magazines). The trigger / manual safety unit is made as a single removable item, and it mostly utilizes Ar-15-compatible parts. The barrels of ACR / Masada are quick-detachable, with short-stroke gas pistons attached to each barrel. To remove the barrel(for change, inspection or maintenance), user has to remove polymer handguards, then swing down the wire lever, located below the barrel,turn the barrel to unlock and pull it forward and out of the receiver.All barrels are free-floated within handguards to achieve consistent accuracy. Bolt group also is made as a single unit, with captive return spring and rotary multi-lug bolt which locks directly to the barrel breech. The standard magazine housing, which is suited to accept Ar-15 type magazines, has ambidextrous magazine release buttons. The ambidextrous bolt stop release button is located at the front of the triggerguard. Safety lever is also ambidextrous, and charging handle can be installed on either side of the gun, depending on user preferences. Depending on the version (or user preferences) ACR /Masada rifle can be equipped with various Magpul-made buttstocks, fixedor side-folding, and adjustable for length of pull (some also with adjustable cheek rest). Each Masada/ BushmasterACR rifle gas integral Picatinny rail on the top of the receiver;additional accessory rails can be installed on forend according to user preferences. Masada / BushmasterACR rifle can be fitted with removable iron sights, and/or with any optical or night sight with appropriate mounting.

[Smilin' Dave]

When comparing accuracy, what range are the targets?

How common are AK74 equivilents? In theory it might be the best of both worlds for you, with the similar shape to the 47 but ammo closer to the M16 (and the Muj still appreciated it).

When our current plastic POS, the SA-80, first went U/S, there was some talk about buying AK or M-16 'off the shelf', but the politicians insisted that we had to give the jobs to the UK arms industry and ordered a complete re-engineering of the plastic POS...so we've still got it.

IIRC they ended up having to pay a German firm to fix the SA80's more glaring quirks... good job UK arms industry

[Dave]

This is kind of unexpected. The M-16 was designed to be far more accurate than the Kalashnikov, which is what most users report. Accurized versions of the M-16 can achieve accuracy under one MOA. Good luck even getting accuracy within 10 MOA with any kind of Kalashnikov.

[ingliz]

Good luck even getting accuracy within 10 MOA with any kind of Kalashnikov.

My Bulgarian AK variant chambered in 5.56 Nato, standard Russian military PK red dot sight, can manage a 1.5" grouping from a standing position at 100yds. Of course, this police spec. "101" is stiffer than a Russian AK, even those fitted with the modified RPK receiver, and the tolerances are tighter so greater accuracy is to be expected.

It was not cheap, though, at around 700EUR

[Demosthenes]

When comparing accuracy, what range are the targets?

50 yards, for the moment. I had to cut the session short because the Missouri water patrol had apparently reserved the range for themselves and they ran me off.

How common are AK74 equivilents?

You mean 47? I don't know, ingliz would have to answer that one. I know there are a million variants nowadays and you can get them chambered in several calibers, but I don't know about equivalents.

My Bulgarian AK variant

My version happens to be Bulgarian as well. I was able to get a half dozen 40 rd Bulgarian-made clips for it as well.

Do you prefer the 5.56 round?

[ingliz]

Do you prefer the 5.56 round?

Shooting paper? Yes

[MB.]

AK 100 series dominates pre- 16A4 or M4 mod variants.

Ak74/74su and or the AK47-AKM is probably the most common infantry weapon combination of states in the world today. 5 million Ak74s were manufactured according to Wiki. Other operators include: Armenia, Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Chad, Cuba, China, Estonia, Georgia, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lebanon, Libya, Lithuania, Moldova, Russia, Syria, Tajikstan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, Uzbekistan...

http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/Kalashnikov_AK-74

As far as I am concerned, the HK416 (5.56 standard) is the finest assault rifle around. HK417 variant is even chambered to fire this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NATO_7.62x51.jpg



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... HK416N.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... rHK416.jpg

Norwegian army variant.

HK416 variant may replace M249 for squad automatic weapon:

In December 2009, a modified version of the HK416 was selected for the final testing in the Infantry Automatic Rifle program, designed to partially replace the M249 light machine gun at the squad level for the United States Marine Corps.[10] It beat the three other finalists by FN Herstal and Colt Defense. In July 2010, the HK416IAR was designated as the M27, and 450 were procured for additional testing.[11]

M27:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/usa/m27-iar-e.html

[Dave]

MB, how would you rate the HK-416 compared to some of the other advanced AR-15 derived assault rifles such as the FN SCAR and Magpul Masada/Bushmaster ACR?

[MB.]

Well, apparently the FN SCAR is slightly more reliable than the HK416. I'm not sure the Masada was tested in same fashion as the 2007 416/SCAR/M4/XM-8 contest.

Not surprisingly, the XM-8 performed the best in that field test. What I like about the HK416 is its simplicity. M4 carbine with more reliability, accuracy, lighter, smaller, more versatile, etc. Certainly the ACR and AR-15 /Armalite variants can perform well in all of those categories (and between them the ACR especially chambered for the 7.62 round is no doubt superior, even if it looks like a stripped down G-36), but I am not aware of any direct and thorough comparative test-fires. Anyway, with respect to Armalite, unless thoroughly updated the chances are these M4 clones will perform similar to the M4 (ie, not very well). In the test I mentioned, the HK 416 and SCAR had similar stoppages, I think it was ~230 per 60,000 rounds or something (XM-8 having ~100). M4 was more like 800+

n the Fall of 2007 the XM8 was compared to other firearms in a 'dust test.' [1] The competition was based on two previous tests that were conducted in Summer 2006 and Summer 2007 before the latest test in the Fall of 2007. In the Summer 2007 test, M16 rifles and M4 carbines recorded a total of 307 stoppages. In the Fall 2007 test, the XM8 recorded only 127 stoppages in 60,000 total rounds while the M4 carbine had 882. The FN SCAR had 226 stoppages and the HK416 had 233. The difference between the XM8, HK416, and FN SCAR was not statistically significant when correcting for the less reliable STANAG magazine. [2] However, the discrepancy of 575 stoppages between the Summer and Fall 2007 tests of the M4 had Army officials looking into possible causes for the change such as different officials, seasons, and inadequate sample pool size but have stated that the conditions of the test were ostensibly the same. The Army countered the controversy surrounding the M4 by stating, in essence, that troops are generally satisfied with the M4. However respondents indicated in independent interviews quoted in Congress that they would much prefer the M4-derivative HK416 or the XM8 which it builds upon, and that Ranger Battalions that were already issued the SCAR liked it much better than AR-15-types

Certainly there is lots of choice in the modern AR world! What is your preference, Dave?

[Demosthenes]

Shooting paper? Yes

Hmm...I thought as much. I'm not sure I'd want to rely on 5.56 in a real world scenario.

My version of the M-16/AR is the Bushmaster XM-15-E2S, for what it's worth.

[MB.]

Looks like an M16-A2 clone?

[ingliz]

in a real world scenario

7.62 Nato

If you wanted something handier than the obvious FN L1A1, a tricked out LuxDefTec carbine (14" barrel) is very pretty.

[Dave]

Does anyone have any familiarity with Lewis Machine and Tool firearms?

http://www.lewismachine.net/

Apparently the British Army found their .308 battle rifle to be superior to the HK-417.

http://www.topgunfirearmsandtacticalsup ... p-400.html

Defense Review was informed (at SHOT Show 2010) that the British Army found the Lewis machine and tool .308 MWS MRP (LM308MWSE)/LM7/L129A1 to be both more accurate AND more reliable under military combat test conditions than the HK 417. This is interesting, since the Lewis machine and tool .308 is a direct-gas-impingement (DGI) AR rifle/carbine, and the HK417 is a gas piston/op-rod AR. Hm. It would seem that piston-driven ARs aren’t always superior to direct gas ARs.(article by Defense Review)

[Smilin' Dave]

You mean 47?

Nope, the AK-74 was the successor to the AK-47 and its subsequent varients (eg. AKM). Fired a different cartridge, the 5.45.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-74
Same basic shape and mechanism, different ammo. Can't recall any discussions comparing the AK-74 to the M16, which was partly what prompted my interest.

[MB.]

Apparently the British Army found their .308 battle rifle to be superior to the HK-417.

Yes but the Brits are using it as a DMR. I'm not certain the 417 would be the best choice for that niche... :o

On the other hand, must have been a close competition

[MB.]

What about the 7.62x51 Nato? You ignored that round completely.

[Zerogouki]

Too much recoil to be used at full auto without a bi/tripod.

[MB.]

Burst.