[Kov]

Yes, sorry for the Mix up, and thanks for the pic. Was a slow day, STG rymed with K-98 I supose...

Furthermore you summed up most everything that I would have added about both weapons... so go forth and continue...

[Backis]

Its quite okay colombian drug lord. From my time in the army I was educated on MG42 so I was more surprised than anything. However, I’m not ‘gun adoring’ and normally wouldn't know the difference between a pellet gun and the M16. But I'm familiar with MG42 because they forced me to use it during my mandatory service. That stupid thing weighs a ton.

The Danish designation is MG62, and its an MG3, not an MG42.

The MG3 is a close descendant of the MG42, but not exactly the same weapon.

The MP49 is a Danish clone of the Swedish Kpist m/45 and produced by Hovea.


On the topic; IMO, the best assault rifle made today is the H&K G36. It's even MORE reliable than the Kalashnikov, accurate and controllable. It also comes with a Pictaninny rail, so quick changes of optical sighting/nightvision or future thermal sights will be easy to implement.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Thx for setting me straight Backis ... I just downloaded a pic of the MG3 and it sure looks like the MG42!

You are dead on about the MP49 as well. It is definitely the same as the Kpist.

How come you know so much more of the Danish army than I do? After all I spent 22 months there.



The Kpist: My untrustworthy friend. You never did hit anything. Thank You.

[Backis]

How come you know so much more of the Danish army than I do? After all I spent 22 months there.



The Kpist: My untrustworthy friend. You never did hit anything. Thank You.

An "unfortunate" interest in matters military...

Also, when I did my 15 months (doghandler in the SwRAF on Gotland in '95-'96) a lot of Danish armored types were co-training with us Swedes at MekB18 in preparation for the co-deployment in Bosnia, so I picked some stuff up. I got to test-fire the MG62 (still prefer the MAG-58 though ).

Regarding the MP49, it seems Hovea messed something up with their version, you are not the first Dane I hear complain about it. All three m/45's I lugged around (not at the same time of course ) were straight shooters (one more than the rest though).

it could be an ammunition issue though (old ammunition issued for practice)?

[Vivisekt]

http://www.metalstorm.com/

The next thirty or so years should be interesting as far as the capabilities of personal armorment is concerned, at least. NO MOVING PARTS WHATSOEVER, CAPIBLE OF OBSCENE RATES OF FIRE.

The O'Dwyer VLe:

and the 36 barrel prototype:

I have a feeling that once these prototypes are developed into mainstream weapondry, they will blow away anything we've seen in the past as far as dependibility, versitility, and power.

[Khalq]

The AK47 is one of the best weapons: good quality and cheaper than the other assault weapons. It's used in a lot of armies around the world like all the others Soviet/Russian weapons (Dragunov, RPG, and all the Kalashnikov family like the AKS, AKMS, RPK).
Its rounds are not really big, only 7.62mm like a lot of other weapons.
They have bullets of different tips: metal penetrator, incendiary, explosive, tracer which makes the weapon very reliable and versatile.
It's the best weapon for guerilla warfare.

[Rowan.]

AK is good for guerrilla warfare. But personally if i was to choose between an M4 or an AK i would probably go for the M4. although that depends on strength and what not.

[Backis]

Do you guys only know about Counterstrike weapons?

Wether a Kalashnikov has "good quality" or not would depend on which manufacturers version you get. Chinas SMG Type 56 for instance (today the most spread "Kalashnikov", and yes, the Chinese designate it a submachinegun due to its bad accuracy) have severe quality problems due to cheap-ass manufacturing, low quality machining and low quality materials.

The cheapest versions of Kalashnikov's available on the market can be so shoddy that their barrels are made of "appropriated" railway iron, leading to the barrels melting and deforming under very low rates of fire (10-20rpm's).

Much of the Kalashnikov family's fame is mere urban legends... When made to specs its a cheap, very reliable, simple to maintain and train on, decently effective carbine with bad accuracy.

Other disadvantages are heavy ammunition (compared to 5.56mmN used as "standard" in the west), and bulky, heavy magazines, further cutting down the amount of ammunition a rifleman can carry with him. A not so unessential factor for an insurgent or guerilla, who most likely have to walk into trouble carrying his supplies with him.

[Backis]

...It's used in a lot of armies around the world like all the others Soviet/Russian weapons (Dragunov, RPG, and all the Kalashnikov family like the AKS, AKMS, RPK).

Many because they were given them for free? Also, it was one of the easiest weapons to manufacture, and to get licensed for domestic manufacture (China, Vietnam, Iraq, Egypt, FMR manufactures their own Kalashnikov clones to mention a few).

Its rounds are not really big, only 7.62mm like a lot of other weapons.
They have bullets of different tips: metal penetrator, incendiary, explosive, tracer which makes the weapon very reliable and versatile.
It's the best weapon for guerilla warfare.

The 7.62x39mmS are not heave compared to full-powered rifle cartridges, no. But they arent full-powered rifle cartridges, they are medium-powered rifle cartridges, and should be compared with such, and voila, they are heavier than the rest.

I'm also thinking that "explosive" and "incendiary" rounds are rather uncommon, you will probably have to settle for FMJ, with a sprinkling of AP.

The absolutely most important criteria for guerillas is availability! That and the fact they dont need much maintenance are their strenghts.

Best or even good all categories? No.

Guerillas fight with the equipment at hand, not what would suit them best.

[Khalq]

"Do you guys only know about Counterstrike weapons?"
I've never played Counterstrike.

Anyway, Backis, you said that much of the Kalashnikov family's fame is mere urban legends, but I think it's Kalashnikov family weapons that is killing everyday two or three american soldiers who have M4 with nightvision scopes.

The AK47 and the FAL are the best weapons of their kind. They are know to be "Human Rippers"!

The best AK47 are made in Russia. I know the others are not so good (syrian, egyptian, ...) and this is because of (as you said) the iron used.

The ammo is not so big and heavy: one soldier can carry more than four magazines on his chest which means 120 cartridges and this is enough to kill more than 100 person (of course if you're good at shooting). 30 cartridges are about 400g. A soldier who deserves to be called like that will not die by carrying them.

Now for other soviet/russian weapons, I think it's RPGs that were hunting Delta Force choppers aver Mogadiscio.
And in the korean war, US lost more than 1300 aircrafts while the russian who "secretly" fought there lost around 400.

[Backis]

Anyway, Backis, you said that much of the Kalashnikov family's fame is mere urban legends, but I think it's Kalashnikov family weapons that is killing everyday two or three american soldiers who have M4 with nightvision scopes.

Actually, the absolute majority of fatalities in Iraq are caused by explosives.

Tactics and motivation are much more important than the type of firearm carried. A better trained and motivated soldier with a flintlock musket would put one between your eyes before you knew you were spotted, and you can carry an OICW with thermal sights.. it wont make any difference...

The AK47 and the FAL are the best weapons of their kind. They are know to be "Human Rippers"!

Just about any type of military firearm (except the Chauchat LMG) will rip people up... they kinda are designed to...

The FN FAL is to expensive... go with the G3, its more accurate and reliable as well as cheaper.

The best AK47 are made in Russia. I know the others are not so good (syrian, egyptian, ...) and this is because of (as you said) the iron used.

Machining and quality control play a part as well...

The ammo is not so big and heavy: one soldier can carry more than four magazines on his chest which means 120 cartridges and this is enough to kill more than 100 person (of course if you're good at shooting). 30 cartridges are about 400g. A soldier who deserves to be called like that will not die by carrying them.

An AKM ( a modernized Kalashnikov weighing nearly a kilo less) and 120 rounds weigh the same as an M16 with 180 rounds.

And if you believe a rifleman goes around plinking like that you obviously have no relevant military experience, sniping is left to snipers, riflemen need enough ammunition to fire at any movement they spot, houses, shadows, cats and dogs and anything in between. A rifleman may also have to go days without resupply if things go bad, and then youre happy for every extra round you've carried with you. I cant think of many things worse than sitting in a foxhole surrounded by enemies with an unloaded weapon.

More is better, when there is only a negligible difference in effect from the cartridge. The 5.56mmN is also easier to hit with since its trajectory is flatter.

No, the Kalashnikov isnt the best thing since sliced bread. Its a dog. Reliable, cheap and adequately effective, and most important of all, to its clients, its available.

Sure as hell beats having only a machete though...

[Khalq]

I didn't say 120 cartridges are enough for an entire war, even if you're a sniper, Backis.

"I cant think of many things worse than sitting in a foxhole surrounded by enemies with an unloaded weapon."
There's nothing worse indeed, but even with an unloaded weapon you still can survive. I once saw the interview of a US Vietnam veteran who had no more ammo in his weapon so he tried to hide himself. He saw a hole and jumped in it only to find another person in his case, a Vietnamese. He was so scared that he hit him with his helmet and killed him.

"riflemen [...] fire at any movement they spot".
Are you sure about this? Maybe they have to shoot anything that moves, but this will also show their location specially when shooting bursts. (something a soldier must avoid).

"The FN FAL is to expensive".
Not so expensive. Two years ago, I saw one with a scope and a bipod costing about 1500$ which is not really expensive since you have handguns like the Desert Eagle costing around 1200$.

"A better trained and motivated soldier with a flintlock musket would put one between your eyes before you knew you were spotted, and you can carry an OICW with thermal sights.. it wont make any difference...".
A flintlock musket is not necessary to kill someone a sling can be enough.

[Boondock Saint]

NICE!

I own a Romanian made AK-47 ... actually no, I recently sold it. My brother owns an American made M-7 which is an AK-47 clone.

I hear alot in this thread about the weight of rounds compared to the AK-47 and the M-4 ... but what I am confused about is that everyone is ignoring the existance of the AK-74 ... which replaced the AK-47 ...

The AK-74 actually has smaller rounds then the M-4 ... 5.45x39mm ... IIRC ... So ... if a soldier has an AK-74 he doesnt have a disadvantage when it comes to the weight of rounds. I dont know how well the Soviets flooded the markets with the newer version of the AK ... (Yes I am aware there are newer version then the 74 but not ones that were manufactured at such high rates to make a big enough impact) ...

Now, the question is did the Iraqi military and current fighters have access to the AK-74 or the AK-47 ... most people look at any AK and automatically call it an AK-47 ... but thats like looking at any AR-15 design and calling it an AR-10 ...

Anyway ... I love the AK rifles, they are wonderful. If I were an insurgent I would most certainly choose an AK rifle ... but for my military I would most likely go with a German design such as the G-36 or even the G-3.

I love the AR-15 rifles but they are too much of a pain in the ass to keep in working order ... though I would take an AR-15 model over any SA-80 variation ...

Great thread ...

Oh and I own an SL-8, thats the civilian version of the G-36 ... can't say I am too impressed by it ... mostly cause its a civilian version ... I should have purchased the mil spec FN that was available ... but I didnt ...

[jaakko]

Now, the question is did the Iraqi military and current fighters have access to the AK-74 or the AK-47

Mostly AKMs, produced in different countries (I've seen atleast Romanian and Chinese in addition to other AKMs). I've gotten the impression that there are some amounts of also AK-74's in Iraq.

most people look at any AK and automatically call it an AK-47

Yes, vast majority of them are actually AKM's or some version of it.

I love the AR-15 rifles but they are too much of a pain in the ass to keep in working order

I'm not familiar with those. But weren't the reliability problems solved with the M16A2? Atleast I've read texts suggesting they were.

[Backis]

Mostly AKMs, produced in different countries (I've seen atleast Romanian and Chinese in addition to other AKMs). I've gotten the impression that there are some amounts of also AK-74's in Iraq.

Iraq manufactured their own variant of the Yugoslav M70, wich is a slightly modified AKM. They supplemented these with everything from straight AKM's to Type 56's.

[Backis]

I didn't say 120 cartridges are enough for an entire war, even if you're a sniper, Backis.

"I cant think of many things worse than sitting in a foxhole surrounded by enemies with an unloaded weapon."
There's nothing worse indeed, but even with an unloaded weapon you still can survive. I once saw the interview of a US Vietnam veteran who had no more ammo in his weapon so he tried to hide himself. He saw a hole and jumped in it only to find another person in his case, a Vietnamese. He was so scared that he hit him with his helmet and killed him..

Stupid git... should have carried an E-tool... much better hand-to-hand.

Point is? Its fine and dandy, just hide and toss yer helemt at Charlie and everything will be nice?

Even with lighter ammo, US soldiers in 'nam shot off ammo to fast, and thats why they designed their M16A2 with the burst-limiter, to prevent panicking troopers from shooting of all their ammo immediately..

Are you sure about this? Maybe they have to shoot anything that moves, but this will also show their location specially when shooting bursts. (something a soldier must avoid).

Sigh... you expect to sneak the enemy to death? When the shooting starts you need ever bullet you carry, and several times more. If youre into MF Recon or that sh1t, you're better of with a MP5SD or a DeLisle carbine... smallarms fire keep up a "wall" that keeps the enemy from maneuvering, then you kill him with your heavies, like the Charlie-G, or even better, a mortar.

Guess how many percent of casualties in a modern war are caused by small arms fire?

The point is, lighter is better... a rifleman doesnt just carry his rifle and a couple of magazines. He carries everything he wears, hopefully an E-tool (very handy thing), maybe an ax, a sleeping bag and more. He will also be called to carry extra ammunition for the the squad GPMG and RPG/RCL you hopefully have. If "lucky" he additionally gets one or two LAW's. Me, I had a 55 kilo Dalmatian, but he could walk himself, so he didnt bother me much, unless, of course, we were climbing, when I sometimes had to carry him to. Dogs can hurt their backs easy, better to carry him short stretches than have him disable himself and have to carry him ALL the way to a veterinarian... I wont go into my 18 kilo tactical vest, night vision and commo gear, since that was "special issue"...

All I can say is sweat city.

And even the inventors of the AK found the original ammo to heavy and switched. Why? Because with everything else being equal, their troopers had a firepower disadvantage compared to western armies carrying 5.56mmN assault rifles.

Wich reminds me; why the hell didnt they fix the ak-clack for the 74? Stupid...

Know what an ak-clack is?

Not so expensive. Two years ago, I saw one with a scope and a bipod costing about 1500$ which is not really expensive since you have handguns like the Desert Eagle costing around 1200$.

Who said a Desert Eagle is cheap? Its a "novelty item"... and pretty useless for anything other than looking like a dork in the movies...

Why do you compare it with a pistol?

Compare that 1200$US(I guess) to the real cheap-ass used Pakistani Kalashnikov clones (railway iron ones) for 50$US a piece. G3's arent really made available in the US I guess since they are all military (ie automatic), and the civvy H&K G91 is a G3 "Deluxe".

Btw, did you bother to check the origin of that FAL? Used goods you know... 25 years of service in Bolivias army or something perhaps? :P

A flintlock musket is not necessary to kill someone a sling can be enough.

Wich is my point... "guerillas" dont use whats best suited to their tasks, they use what is available under their circumstances. The Soviets were truly GIVING them away during the cold war. Free is good when you don't have a budget.

Why is the Kalashnikov so popular in the third world? Any peasant can maintain one.

[Rowan.]

If we only knew CS weapons we wouldn't have a clue what we were talking about. The weapons on cs are so incorrect to the real weapons. anyway, about the closest AK clone is the Chinese (PRC) Type 56. also other copies of AK are the VZ.58. which i believe is middle eastern made. has anyone on this forum used the AK 47 enough times to master it. This question may sound a bit weird to all you americans but Australias gun laws are crazy. Also, I never forgot the AK-74. or the SMG AK-74 SU. i take it ak-74 is like the M4 version of M16's. What military weaponshas anyone used anyway? i don't mean 12g Shotgun i mean MP5's FAMAS you know.

[Jing]

realising that this post became 4 pages long, i am relpying this message back. German guns are good guns. Russian guns are also good guns.

[Boondock Saint]

Jaakko

I'm not familiar with those. But weren't the reliability problems solved with the M16A2? Atleast I've read texts suggesting they were.

Yes and no, the issue with M-16's (The AR-15 is the design type, its also the civilian version, if someone says AR-15 they mean an M-16 that is only semi-auto) ... jamming for no apparent reason was taken care of ... but that doesnt mean the overall reliability is good. Sand will jam the fucker faster then a two doller whore will ... er ... you get the picture.

The damn things need to be cleaned all the time if you want it to remain in working order and if something goes awry that thing aint gonna be fixed on the spot ...

Overall though the AR-15's are fine rifles for a well supplied fast moving highly trained military that utilized suppressive fire with heavy air and artillery support.

[Khalq]

"Btw, did you bother to check the origin of that FAL? Used goods you know... 25 years of service in Bolivias army or something perhaps? :P"
Yeah, I checked its origin and Nay, it wasn't in service in Bolivias army but in Belgium and actually I forgot to tell you I saw it in Belgium and it was of a good quality.

And hey I know the Desert Eagle is only good for Arnold S. movies, but it's just an exemple.