[noemon]

There is no obscurity, it is the actual payments made/recieved by the scheme.

Wholesale price isn't altered as it is set by the last generator on. Which by definition will be dispatchable ( I e. Gas).

The subsidy covers the difference between the wholesale price and the actual price. The wholesale price is reduced by the subsidy and even when wholesale prices go higher during those temporary russian gas issues, wind-farms still fraud their way out of making those payments. So the electricity consumer & taxpayer gets ripped in the bum either way and it never works to their actual benefit.

Despite all these subsidies, off-shore wind-farms are so "profitable" and viable that the UK recent competition attracted 0 bids.

Yeap, you heard it right, no company in the planet is interested in building off-shore windfarm in the UK even if they get 4 billion per yer in subsidies.

[BeesKnee5]

The subsidy covers the difference between the wholesale price and the actual price. The wholesale price is reduced by the subsidy.

No, the CfD is the difference between wholesale and contract .

The payments are made quarterly after the difference has been assessed. The wholesale price paid doesn't change, if it did then all other generators would also be paid more/less.

even when wholesale prices go higher during those temporary russian gas issues, wind-farms still fraud their way out of making those payments.

All wind / solar not on CfD get paid either the wholesale price or a PPA price they have independently agreed with a supplier.

Despite all these subsidies, off-shore wind-farms are so "profitable" and viable that the UK recent competition attracted 0 bids.

UK offered a CfD of £60MWh when current UK wholesale prices are double that.

No generator in their right mind is going to accept a contract below cost price where they have to hand half the money they earn back. It was in effect a huge negative subsidy.

[noemon]

You are posting obscurities again that nobody understands.

To put it in a way that people understand:

Wind farm produces 1kw of electricity and the wholesale price of electricity is say £1 but the wind-farm spent £1.5 to produce that. It gets those 50 cents back from the government who in turn gets it from the Green Energy Levies. If the wholesale price goes to £2 due to linked gas prices and it costs the windfarm still £1.5, then the windfarm pays those 50 cents back the Treasury. Though this has never actually happened because wind-farms play with the timing of their contracts to avoid paying those money back. So what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine too kind of thing.

About 5 billion pounds wind-farms received in these payments in 2020 alone just so their electricity prices are in line with the wholesale electricity price and not more. So if a wind-farm produced electricity for £1.5, it sold it instead at £1 which was the base wholesale electricity price for that quarter and got the 50 cents back from the government, the taxpayer and the electricity consumer.

Down the line these contracts get even more convoluted by pushing them into the future and index-linking them.

UK offered a CfD of £60MWh when current UK wholesale prices are double that.

And 2 years ago they were half that.

Just goes to show where the wind is blowing when it comes to electricity prices.

[BeesKnee5]

You are posting obscurities again that nobody understands.

To put it in a way that people understand:

Wind farm produces 1kw of electricity and the wholesale price of electricity is say £1 but the wind-farm spent £1.5 to produce that. It gets those 50 cents back from the government who in turn gets it from the Green Energy Levies. If the wholesale price goes to £2 due to linked gas prices and it costs the windfarm still £1.5, then the windfarm pays those 50 cents back the Treasury. Those this hyas never actually happened because wind-farms play with the timing of their contracts to avoid that from ever happening.

About 5 billion wind-farms received in these payments in 2020 just so their prices are in line with the wholesale electricity price and not more.

Actual amounts over the last 6 years are obscurities. Lol!

It has nothing to do with the cost to generate the power, they are paid the wholesale price and then billed credited at the end of the quarter based on the difference between the wholesale payment and the contract.

And yes those who hadn't yet signed their contract delayed and were paid based solely on wholesale price just like every other generator on the market.

[noemon]

Actual amounts over the last 6 years are obscurities. Lol!

The graph is not an obscurity, just irrelevant to anything being discussed. Your text is obscure.

It has nothing to do with the cost to generate the power, they are paid the wholesale price and then billed credited at the end of the quarter based on the difference between the wholesale payment and the contract.

And yes those who hadn't yet signed their contract delayed and were paid based solely on wholesale price just like every other generator on the market.

The contract price has nothing to do with the cost to generate the power and maintain the wind-farms? Another magical cost transferred to the fairies.

[BeesKnee5]

The graph is not an obscurity, just irrelevant to anything being discussed. Your text is obscure.

The contract price has nothing to do with the cost to generate the power and maintain the wind-farms? Another magical cost transferred to the fairies.

The graph and the link is highly relevant as it shows how those payments have changed and highlights why you cherrypicked 2020 .

Simple business for you, a contract will determine profit after costs, it does not determine the cost to generate.

[noemon]

The graph and the link is highly relevant as it shows how those payments have changed and highlights why you cherrypicked 2020 .

The only reason I used 2020 is because it was the first google result that appeared. The only thing that your argumentation highlights is the extreme rise of wholesale electricity prices presumably for me because of the obscurity and convolutedness of the energy market. You are not making a particular case, nor does it deny my original argument, that the cost per mile for EV's is underreported by a lot due to numerous subsidies, both in terms of price per mile and in terms of emissions per mile. That's an obvious fact.

Simple business for you, a contract will determine profit after costs, it does not determine the cost to generate.

The costs determine the contract price & not the contract price the costs, obviously.

The contract price reflects(not determines) costs and hence it being inflation index-linked for 15-20 years.

[BeesKnee5]

The only reason I used 2020 is because it was the first google result that appeared. The only thing that your argumentation highlights is the extreme rise of wholesale electricity prices because of the obscurity and convolutedness of the energy market. It does not make a particular case, nor does it deny my original argument, that the cost per mile for EV's is underreported by a lot due to numerous subsidies, both in terms of price per mile and in terms of emissions per mile. That's an obvious fact.
.

You used 2020 because the pandemic gave you an inflated figure and now you've been called out you are trying to claim it was accidental.

And still you have failed to show that the payments to wind farms affect wholesale price, nor have you shown that the subsidies are used to create cheap overnight tarifs for EVs. The reason why is because it simply isn't true.

Even in the most expensive year for wind farm payments due to suppressed wholesale prices the net effect was a few pence . Last year it was nothing, this year it will be around £0.007kWh

So to conclude
Yes the UK subsidise renewables as we transition from gas and coal.

Yes, that means that the early wind and solar farms recieve payments to make them viable that is historically higher than the price paid for coal and gas to get those industries running.

Last year those generators on CfD paid £500m to the government because gas was higher than wind contracts.
Those not on CfD received the wholesale price.

There is a good report on the recent events in wind contracts here

https://reports.electricinsights.co.uk/ ... x_23Q2.pdf

[noemon]

You used 2020 because the pandemic gave you an inflated figure and now you've been called out you are trying to claim it was accidental.

There is nothing to be called out for. The 4.7 billion in offshore windfarm subsidies in 2020 is not an inflated figure, it's an actual figure and the figure for 2019 is pretty similar also.

Not important but just in case you thought you actually had something about this irrelevancy rather than implying something about my motives for simply quoting from the first information I found from here, same link again, previously posted:

https://www.ref.org.uk/ref-blog/370-off ... %20million.

And still you have failed to show that the payments to wind farms affect wholesale price, nor have you shown that the subsidies are used to create cheap overnight tarifs for EVs. The reason why is because it simply isn't true.

Aha, 3-4 energy levies + fuel tax + vat on fuel + ULEZ + cameras for ULEZ + higher prices to buy EV on one side resulting to subsidies for off-shore wind farms nobody wants to build, EV tax breaks, charging point subsidies for home use, pod subsidies for commercial use + marshalls to protect the charging pods and maintain queues + more on the other side. None of that all affects the price per mile for EV's compared to the price per mile for ICE cars. None at all. And to make matters worse I was not even the one to talk about costs, you were the one to claim that EV's are cheaper to drive. Your claim is of course false. EV's are not cheaper to drive. Once you strip down the 2 energy units to their fundamentals, ICE cars are about 10(maybe even 20 or 30) times cheaper than EV's to drive and run per mile. ICE cars are also less polluting to the environment as they will produce less emissions during a 3-year lease of a new car than the EV car will do in the same 3-year lease period. This is true even for longer periods of time and pro-EV pundits use benchmarks like 15, 17 and 20 years to make the emission numbers palatable to their crowd.

This is quite problematic as we are damaging the environment while also totally distorting the energy market and driving prices up in ludicrous levels.

[BeesKnee5]

There is nothing to be called out for. The 4.7 billion in offshore windfarm subsidies in 2020 is not an inflated figure, it's an actual figure and the figure for 2019 is pretty similar also.

Not important but just in case you thought you actually had something about this irrelevancy rather than implying something about my motives for simply quoting from the first information I found from here, same link again, previously posted:

https://www.ref.org.uk/ref-blog/370-off ... %20million.





Aha, 3-4 energy levies + fuel tax + vat on fuel + ULEZ + cameras for ULEZ + higher prices to buy EV on one side resulting to subsidies for off-shore wind farms nobody wants to build, EV tax breaks, charging point subsidies for home use, pod subsidies for commercial use + marshalls to protect the charging pods and maintain queues + more on the other side. None of that all affects the price per mile for EV's compared to the price per mile for ICE cars. None at all. And to make matters worse I was not even the one to talk about costs, you were the one to claim that EV's are cheaper to drive. Your claim is of course false. EV's are not cheaper to drive. Once you strip down the 2 energy units to their fundamentals, ICE cars are about 10(maybe even 20 or 30) times cheaper than EV's to drive and run per mile. ICE cars are also less polluting to the environment as they will produce less emissions during a 3-year lease of a new car than the EV car will do in the same 3-year lease period. This is true even for longer periods of time and pro-EV pundits use benchmarks like 15, 17 and 20 years to make the emission numbers palatable to their crowd.

This is quite problematic as we are damaging the environment while also totally distorting the energy market and driving prices up in ludicrous levels.

Energy levies for warm home grants and supporting the transition from gas and coal.

EV drivers pay vat when they charge away from home

ULEZ pays for public transport.

There is no subsidy for home chargers ( only for landlords and employers)

I've never had to queue for a charger and the cost of maintaining public chargers is in the price you pay.

So still nothing to show the clam of funds being used to provide cheap overnight charging tarifs, just a ream of distraction.

ICE cars aren't remotely cheaper, while you pay £7-8 for 40 miles, I'm paying £0.75.

Your 50% taxation on fuel isn't remotely close to offsetting that difference

https://www.racfoundation.org/data/perc ... -tax-page#:

As for the argument based on the car being binned after three years, it's just laughable. Even if I sell my EV after the 4 year PCP the next owner will still be using the car until it is no longer roadworthy, which based on current evidence will be just as long as an ice vehicle.

[Rancid]

Having done 800 mile round trips to Scotland and back I'm not sure what innovation you are looking for?

The mount of lithium and other CO2 intense metals makes the sustainability argument a lie. I'm looking for innovation that doesn't require these types of materials, as well as a massive increase in the energy density of batteries.

EV as a solution to climate change is a lie.

[BeesKnee5]

The mount of lithium and other CO2 intense metals makes the sustainability argument a lie. I'm looking for innovation that doesn't require these types of materials, as well as a massive increase in the energy density of batteries.

EV as a solution to climate change is a lie.

Sustainability is dependant on our ability to recycle and reuse the materials, using renewable sources to do so.

We already see this with other metals like copper, aluminium and steel that the levels of recycling rise as demand rises and machinery reaches end of life.

There is no single solution to climate change other than a circular economy.

[JohnRawls]

Not sure what people are arguing here about. Renewable energy generation was more or less solved by improving pricing on Solar-Wind-Hydro-Bio and it will only get better. Majority of generation from them is now cheaper than the cheapest coal power plants. Heck even the Solar Panels installed in my parents place will pay themselves off in less than 10 year with the current prices. Even if they go down by 3 fold they still will pay themselves off during their lifetime. And it is just Solar panels for a house and not a commercial generation farm. And I am talking about Estonia here instead of Texas or California or Spain.... Even with the electricity companies being bastards and buying it on the cheap durring peak generation hours. (Yes I know the supply is high so price goes lower but those companies are bastards and make it even lower through trickery and wanting to make a profit)

Electric cars is more complicated with a battery being involved and not being recyclable but the problem is not going to fix itself if nobody actually builds them and tests them over time and then improves them. So I get the point of promoting it.

As much as I see it, there are losers and winers from this. Those who will adopt renewables will be the winners and those who will ignore it are just loosers in the long run even with not everything being solved right now. Get in the business or get left behind sort of thing. With the war going on, Europe super charged the transition and it feels at least in Estonia. May be we will be able to get to 100% or close enough by 2030 considering we jumped like 10% in the last year alone and already in target for 2025 EU policy.

[Puffer Fish]

As much as I see it, there are losers and winers from this. Those who will adopt renewables will be the winners and those who will ignore it are just loosers in the long run even with not everything being solved right now. Get in the business or get left behind sort of thing.

Really? So we can assume you own an electric car? Put your money where your mouth is.

Most of those saying how wonderful electric cars are don't even own one, nor are they going to make the decision to buy one anytime soon.
Like typical Leftists, they want the government to "solve the problem".

[B0ycey]

The mount of lithium and other CO2 intense metals makes the sustainability argument a lie. I'm looking for innovation that doesn't require these types of materials, as well as a massive increase in the energy density of batteries.

EV as a solution to climate change is a lie.

It is a lie. Anyone who does a tiny bit of research on this understands this. People like @BeesKnee5 are virtue signallers. They think they are better than everyone else because they believe they are doing something. The truth is EVs still have a massive carbon footprint whether that is from manufacturing or the power plant that charges the car and is very much like Bill Gates who has a private plane claiming to be an eco warrior because he grows a few trees. It will also be interesting when we start running out of Lithium how this solution pans out too. Not to mention infrastructure issues. The whole EV trend needs a review actually, but they sound good during COPwhatevernumberapplieshere so every government just plays along with the lie.

[BeesKnee5]

Yes, by owning an EV I am doing something.

I am paying far, far less to drive.

By embracing renewables I am doing something.

Im paying far far less for my power .


This isn't virtue signalling,, I'm not trying to argue that owning an EV solves the world's problems, nor have I made the claim that you must buy one to save the planet, my primary reason for switching is financial.

The evidence on EVs is simple, the are not 'the solution' but they are a means of reducing fossil fuel use and like it or not sales are growing at a fast rate. The price of batteries is falling to the point that even the argument that they are more expensive to buy is being lost

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/elec ... 14865.html

You can listen to Tufton Street think tanks and legacy marketing departments desperate to keep selling you ICE vehicles, or you can listen to researchers like TU Eindhoven. It's your choice, I prefer the later.

Running out of lithium Is just another on the FUD list with running out of copper. It's the same argument that's been used for running out of oil and it's based purely on a misunderstanding of what economically viable reserves means. It means what we have found so far and can extract profitably, problem is the more you look, the more you find so the number keeps rising. So yes there is likely to be periods when the rate of extraction cannot match demand, but no we won't run out and when these situations occur we will see the same market forces push use of sodium batteries like high copper prices push aluminium use at the bottom end of the market.

[noemon]

The reason why I don't drive an EV is because it is not cheaper. The average personal Tesla PCP is £800-1000 per month.

That is 36k rental price to drive a car you do not own for 3 years and then redo the whole PCP thing every 3 or 4 years.

For roughly the same money paid upfront, I own & drive 2 amazing used ICE cars instead of which I own the equity, both of which bought when their used prices bottomed out, at this point my equity is higher than when they were bought, meaning I can sell the cars and make money on them instead of totally lose the 36k.

I have been very keen though to install solar panels and heat pumps. The heat pumps did not work out for me and I threw them out and returned to a gas boiler. The solar panels have worked out for me in Greece but not in the UK yet but I am trying still to find an appropriate solution.

You can listen to everybody and make your own conclusions but every time you do so, look at the fine print. As you should do anyway. The EV fine print about EV emissions is quite problematic.

[BeesKnee5]

The reason you don't drive an EV is because new cars are more expensive than used cars.

My, now that's a revelation.

I'll will give you the figures for mine and you can make your own mind up.

I bought a vw ID3 on 4 years PCP at £350pcm using a company car allowance.

The purchase price was £27,000, which was virtually the same as a similar specced Golf and the repayments similar. My company doesn't do salary sacrifice so I did not get the tax incentive.

Because I do a decent number of miles ( mostly non business) I pay a fraction of the price I paid when I ran a Prius before.

The reason why I don't drive an EV is because it is not cheaper. The average personal Tesla PCP is £800-1000 per month.

That is 36k rental price to drive a car you do not own for 3 years and then redo the whole PCP thing every 3 or 4 years..

God knows which Tesla you are looking at, even with no downpayment it's £560pcm

[noemon]

God knows which Tesla you are looking at, even with no downpayment it's £560pcm

The average & normal long-range Tesla 3.

You said you drive 15k miles per year, I drive 25k due to my commuting. You put the lowest mileage in your calculator(5k allowance), 48 months instead of 36 and the maximum downpayment to reduce your figures. Now that is quite disingenuous.





VW Id3 25k miles allowance, no downpayment, 800+ per month for 3 years.

[BeesKnee5]

The average & normal long-range Tesla 3.

You said you drive 15k miles per year, I drive 25k due to my commuting. You put the lowest mileage in your calculator(5k allowance), 48 months instead of 36 and the maximum downpayment to reduce your figures. Now that is quite disingenuous.

Again you lie and it's plain for all to see as the mileage allowance is on the screenshot as 10k a year, which is the standard mileage. I also quoted the figure for no downpayment so clearly wasn't trying to be disingenuous.

Tbh with Tesla offering interest free finance at the moment, why wouldn't you go over 4 years?

Why are you not going directly through Tesla?

But I'm glad you clarified you do 25k a year and so your cost will be inflated regardless of which new car you choose.


Top of the range is more expensive, who knew. You are getting desperate old boy.