[noemon]

This is another lie by you.

I will ask you kindly once, not to say this again.

The environmental and social obligation costs do not affect wholesale price or determine what tarifs suppliers provide.

Of course they do not affect wholesale prices(another strawman), but retail electricity prices.

[BeesKnee5]

I will ask you kindly once, not to say this again.



Of course they do not affect wholesale prices(another strawman), but retail electricity prices.

The reason why nightly rates are cheaper is because wholesale prices are lower so suppliers can purchase electricity more cheaply.

If you lie I will be honest with you and tell you so. There is nothing in the environmental and social obligation costs for providing a discount on nightly rates and your claim is simply untrue.

[noemon]

The reason why nightly rates are cheaper is because wholesale prices are lower so suppliers can purchase electricity more cheaply.

If you lie I will be honest with you and tell you so. There is nothing in the environmental and social obligation costs for providing a discount on nightly rates and your claim is simply untrue.

Are you aware that brokers like (loveenergy, herutility, uswitch, bionic, etcetera) that sign up your "reduced" electricity contracts get 30% commission out of you?

Are you even aware what the Green Levy is used for? Noone is, because noone knows as nothing is published. "To fund Green projects" is all we get.

But how do we even fund Green Projects?

Are you even aware how the green energy scheme works and how the gov has been paying wind farms and solar farms:

Like so:

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/electricit ... f-turbines

I suggest you keep your mind open and you might learn something new in this extremely convoluted subject that is the UK's energy market.

[BeesKnee5]

Are you even aware how the green energy scheme works and how the gov has been paying wind farms and solar farms:

Like so:

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/electricit ... f-turbines

I suggest you keep your mind open and you might learn something new in this extremely convoluted subject that is the UK' energy market.

So now we have a change of tact because you've been caught out.

The breakdown of the environmental and social obligation costs is provided by OFGEM.

Balancing costs have always been part of the grid and isn't part of the green levy. Balancing costs include capacity market payments to gas to be on standby, frequency and inertia control and curtailment costs.

https://data.nationalgrideso.com/balanc ... -of-system

[Rancid]

EVs need a fundamental innovation in battery tech for them to really really really really really be worth it and more importantly, for them to be sustainable. The energy density is just so poor still. The one positive, loss of energy delivery from a battery is pretty low compared to gasoline. That is, most of the energy that is in a battery actually does get converted to mechanical forward motion. Something like 80%. For Gasoline, it's something like 30%, but gasoline is like orders of magnitude better in terms of energy density to start, hence, that 30% isn't noticeable.

[BeesKnee5]

EVs need a fundamental innovation in battery tech for them to really really really really really be worth it and more importantly, for them to be sustainable. The energy density is just so poor still. The one positive, loss of energy delivery from a battery is pretty low compared to gasoline. That is, most of the energy that is in a battery actually does get converted to mechanical forward motion. Something like 80%. For Gasoline, it's something like 30%, but gasoline is like orders of magnitude better in terms of energy density to start, hence, that 30% isn't noticeable.

Having done 800 mile round trips to Scotland and back I'm not sure what innovation you are looking for?

Bottom line, if the car can travel as far as you can before you need to stop and be ready to go when you are ready to restart then it meets your needs. Personally by around 4 hours driving I need a break.

[noemon]

So now we have a change of tact because you've been caught out.

The breakdown of the environmental and social obligation costs is provided by OFGEM.

Balancing costs have always been part of the grid and isn't part of the green levy. Balancing costs include capacity market payments to gas to be on standby, frequency and inertia control and curtailment costs.

https://data.nationalgrideso.com/balanc ... -of-system

There is no change of tact whatsoever. You are just ignoring everything that does not suit you.

What does all that supposed to mean, you don't say.

Are you saying that the Green Energy Levy(in your parlance "environmental and social obligation costs") is used to fund daily balancing costs?

Because if so, you are only confirming what I said.

[BeesKnee5]

Are you saying that the Green Energy Levy(in your parlance "environmental and social obligation costs") is used to fund daily balancing costs?

Because if so, you are confirming what I said.

No, it is a fact that they are not.

For curtailment it is when contracted wind exceeds demand and so by encouraging more people to use power during off peak it lowers curtailment costs.

Better to pay people to use electricity, than pay generators to waste it, which is why these TOU tarifs are only going to become more common and not less.

[noemon]

No, it is a fact that they are not.

For curtailment it is when contracted wind exceeds demand and so by encouraging more people to use power during off peak it lowers curtailment costs.

Better to pay people to use electricity, than pay generators to waste it, which is why these TOU tarifs are only going to become more common and not less.

It is a fact that npower is saying that the Green Levies on our bills which are several of them(CCL, GGL, CfD) are used to rebalance gas and electricity costs by reducing electricity costs and increasing gas costs.

https://npowerbusinesssolutions.com/res ... en-levies#

It is also a fact that npower is saying openly that up to 60% of our energy bills are due to 'non-commodity' costs. Another 30% is the broker's commission not included here.

Another link here: https://npowerbusinesssolutions.com/foc ... -commodity

Non-commodity costs refer to network costs, environmental and social costs, supplier operating costs and your supplier's pre-tax margin.

How wind farm subsidies game the system:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ing-system

[BeesKnee5]

It is a fact that npower is saying that the Green Levies on our bills which are several of them(CCL, GGL, CfD) are used to rebalance gas and electricity costs by.

The 'green levy' goes towards ROC and CfD payments that are settled quarterly. They are not based on TOU, do not settle balancing costs and so do not offer cheap nightly rates.

https://www.lowcarboncontracts.uk/resou ... dashboard/

reducing electricity costs and increasing gas costs.

That isn't the case, there is no increase on gas and your article doesn't say there is, however it should really be the case that gas shares the costs and so there are plans to share these costs across electricity and gas in future, which will lower Electricity bills.

How wind farm subsidies game the system:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ing-system

This is an interesting case. Basically sky high gas from the result of a war in Ukraine meant any new windfarm signing their CfD would get less income.

So why should they sign it when they had no obligation to?

The result of this means future contracts have been tightened up so that if you don't sign within the window then you lose it.

[noemon]

GGL Green Energy levy on gas bills to cover biomethane subsidies:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental- ... e%20scheme.

But the Green Energy Levy on electricity bills is according to you never used to provide subsidies to wind farms. Never. Sir. Never.

The subsidies are just magically generated out of thin air and they are not actual costs because you don't pay them but we all do.

Riiiight...

[BeesKnee5]

GGL Green Energy levy on gas bills to cover biomethane subsidies:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental- ... e%20scheme.

But the Green Energy Levy on electricity bills is according to you never used to provide subsidies to wind farms. Never. Sir. Never.

The subsidies are just magically generated out of thin air and they are not actual costs because you don't pay them but we all do.

Riiiight...

Again we shift.

I'm not saying there are no subsidies for renewables and low carbon sources.

I'm asking you to provide evidence that they are used to subsidise cheap overnight charging for EVs.

[noemon]

We don't shift at all.

The government has paid multiple billions in wind farm subsidies to reduce the electricity rates to acceptable levels for years, these subsidies are funded by obviously the Green Energy Levies and by the extreme charges petrol motorists pay the government coffers.

They certainly don't come from nowhere.

[BeesKnee5]

We don't shift at all.

The government has paid multiple billions in wind farm subsidies to reduce the electricity rates to acceptable levels for years, these subsidies are funded by obviously the Green Energy Levies and by the extreme changes petrol motorists pay the government coffers.

They certainly don't come from nowhere.

Yes we do shift,
The government has made no mandate, nor accommodated providing cheaper charging for EVs at night.

Replacing coal and reducing gas use has been the aim of decarbonising the electricity system, EVs or no EVs. Increasingly the ability of EVs to provide demand side response is reducing those costs by soaking up off peak generation.

[noemon]

Yes we do shift,
The government has made no mandate, nor accommodated providing cheaper charging for EVs at night.

Right, so you are adamant that electricity rates for your charging at night would be exactly the same these past 10 years had the government not paid numerous billions(4.3 billion it paid in windfarm subsidies just for the covid year 2020) to wind-farm subsidies alone?

[BeesKnee5]

Right, so you are adamant that electricity rates for your charging at night would be exactly same these past 10 years had the government not paid numerous billions(4.3 billion it paid in windfarm subsidies just for the year covid year 2020) to wind-farmn subsidies?

£4.3bn / 30m households using an average of 5,000kWh .

£0.03 kWh for everyone, regardless of when they used electricity, in an atypical year because demand was suppressed and so curtailment was greater.

Now you need to show that this payment was made to reduce overnight EV charging

[noemon]

£4.3bn / 30m households using an average of 5,000kWh .

£0.03 kWh for everyone, regardless of when they used electricity, in an atypical year because demand was suppressed and so curtailment was greater.

Now you need to show that this payment was made to reduce overnight EV charging

You 're a funny lad. The 4.3 billion was not paid for all electricity but purely for the kwh produced by wind-farms.

4.3 billion in a single yeat purely for wind-farm electricity subsidies to the producers of said electricity just for a single Covid year with much-reduced electricity demand for the 1 and only reason of making wind-farm electricity as cheap as the rest. Made "cheap" by consumers paying for it anyway!

Lastly, this paper closes the lid on what you called "my lie" about the Green Levies being used to subsidize renewable electricity prices. They are indeed used for this purpose:

As of the end of 2020, there were 41 operational offshore wind farms which receive a subsidy levied on consumer electricity bills via either the Renewables Obligation (RO) or the Contract for Different (CfD) subsidy mechanisms

This trend will not be surprising to anyone who understands the (admittedly obscure) subsidy mechanisms for renewable generation in the UK, since it reflects the increasing levels of subsidy awarded by the UK Government to successive offshore wind farms as they have been built, and the fact that these subsidy rates are index linked and designed to persist for 15 or 20 years per site.

https://www.ref.org.uk/ref-blog/370-off ... ue-to-rise

[BeesKnee5]

Actual payment figures show 2020 significantly higher than other years while several quarters in 2022 were negative due to the high gas prices.

https://www.lowcarboncontracts.uk/resou ... dashboard/

Lastly, this paper closes the lid on what you called "my lie" about the Green Levies being used to subsidize renewable electricity prices. They are indeed used for this purpose:

That wasn't what I called a lie.

[noemon]

Actual payment figures show 2020 significantly higher than other years while several quarters in 2022 were negative due to the high gas prices.

https://www.lowcarboncontracts.uk/resou ... dashboard/



That wasn't what I called a lie.

Still posting obscurities without any clarity. It's pretty obvious you are afraid to clarify yourself.

Ah so you agree that Green Levy's are used to subsidize renewable electricity and to alter its wholesale price, you just disagree on the nightly-rate which according to you is not part of the subsidized electricity but subject to another special magical grid that produces electricity by harnessing the virtue-signalling feelings of EV owners?

In any case, your EV remains dirtier than the equivalent ICE car during the lease duration and your ride has not even been shown to be cheaper either than the equivalent ICE car. If it is cheaper which is also debatable, it is purely because of subsidies paid for by all electricity consumers and not because it is actually cheaper.

[BeesKnee5]

Still posting obscurities without any clarity. It's pretty obvious you are afraid to clarify yourself.

Ah so you agree that Green Levy's are used to subsidize renewable electricity and to alter its wholesale price, you just disagree on the nightly-rate which according to you is not part of the subsidized electricity but subject to another special magical grid that produces electricity by harnessing the virtue-signalling feelings of EV owners?

There is no obscurity, it is the actual payments made/recieved by the scheme.

Wholesale price isn't altered as it is set by the last generator on. Which by definition will be dispatchable ( I e. Gas).


It's now very clear that you have zero concept of how CfD operate.