- 18 Oct 2022 14:24
#15251394
First of all, I respect both of these gentlemen for their willingness to talk things out in a respectful way. They agree on some things, disagree on some others, and that's totally fine. For those who think Piers is grilling him too hard, you must understand that this is the nature of British journalism. Everyone who accepts an interview with a Brit must understand this.
I have to jump right in and address the issue of depression, because it is the most important one to me personally.
A few years ago I read some comments from Mr. Tate where he claimed that “depression is not real”. Admittedly I did not listen to the entire hour-long segment from which this quote was taken, nor did I have any desire to do so. To me it sounded blatantly ignorant and wrong. So when I decided to listen to this interview, I had some very negative preconceived notions of the man.
First of all, Andrew Tate contradicts himself. At timestamp 46:45, Tate says “I don’t believe depression as a clinical disease is real”. But then at 50:13, he says “I am reading the emails of people who have I have cured of clinical depression”. Tate’s initial take on clinical depression is that it is an incurable disease that a person is stuck with for life. Now, if it is the case that Tate has helped people overcome depression, then obviously his original understanding was wrong. There is some form of depression, at least in Tate’s mind, that can be cured and overcome. But then, it cannot be the case that Tate has actually cured anyone of any real, clinical depression, since as per his own definition, clinical depression, as a disease, has no cure. Therefore, it follows that the people who he has claimed to help could not have truly had clinical depression in the first place. For Tate so claim he has cured people with clinical depression, he is acknowledging that clinical depression is real.
I myself believe that clinical depression is a real disease, but I also believe that it can be cured. I also completely support regular, intense physical exercise as one of the best means to combat it. I train Muay Thai and Boxing 4 days a week, and it has done incredible things for both my anxiety and depression. I have also seen many other ways to remedy depression - an outlet for musical expression is a big one for me, as well as good sex, and proper diet.
I see a doctor for depression and anxiety. I don’t believe my doctor has ever said to me that I have an incurable disease. We have worked together to find treatment options that work. In my personal experience, medications have helped me. I have read about negative side effects that some people have when taking medications, but fortunately I have never seen any of them in my case. The medications have done no wrong to me. I understand they have been ineffective or even dangerous for some people, and for those people, it is your choice not to take them. Different chemicals affect different people in different ways. In monitoring the medication’s affects on my mind and body, along with a doctor’s supervision, I can safely say that they have only helped me. I do not however claim that medications alone are enough to overcome the disease.
Now, on the question of whether or not depression should be classified as a disease, I say yes. By this I am not claiming that it is some kind of permanent illness that people are born with, or that it is engrained into a person’s genes, or that it can be detected in the same way that other diseases can. I am however claiming that when compared to many undisputed diseases, depression is much worse. I can think of many diseases I would rather have.
Some people say that alcoholism is a disease. I have disputed this for similar reasons that Tate disputes depression. Those who insist it is a disease will indeed try to convince problem drinkers that they are powerless over their illness and they need to accept this. Anyone who has been to an AA meeting knows this. Now, here is where I can completely relate to what Tate is saying. I think it is terribly dangerous and unhealthy to tell someone that they are powerless to overcome a drinking problem. It is completely false and it is a weak, defeatist attitude to take. I absolutely have control over alcohol, even though at times in the past I worried that it was an issue. I can tell you that the treatment centers are totally ineffective and cause way more problems than they solve. If this is the mindset Tate takes about depression, then I can totally understand.
However, Tate shows a lack of consistency again when he admits that PTSD is real. Victims of PTSD usually also suffer chronic depression. When Tate says that everyone is able to control their minds, and that they should reject labeling depression as a disease, then logically, he ought to say the same thing about PTSD. And yet he claims PTSD is real. This is illogical.
Broadly speaking, one of the biggest problems of having a mental illness just is the inability to control one’s mind and thoughts.
So let me get back to this interview. Piers brings up sound bites throughout the interview which he then allows Tate to expound upon, which I think is fair. Some of the views Tate appears to have really are taken out of context though. For example, one of the quotes that Piers brings up is Tate’s claim that women become the property of men when they get married. Actually, this appears to be biblically true. Ephesians 5:22-30:
"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands." Ephesians is part of the new testament, but the old testament is particularly replete with misogyny. It’s no secret that women in the ancient world were treated as being less valuable than men. If Tate is being asked to answer for the way that ancient holy books describe women, then I don’t think it’s fair to take his quotes and attribute them to Tate himself.
On the issue of traditional marriage, I don’t think that from a religious standpoint either of these men can honestly say they uphold its values. Frankly, both of them are hypocrites in what they say and do. Tate is an unmarried adulterer who regularly engages in premarital sex. He has no basis to claim that he believes in traditional marriage. Likewise, Piers claims to be a Christian yet he denies biblical scripture and condones illegitimate marriages between two men or two women.
Piers again brings up a similar quote from Tate which is taken completely out of context. Tate made the claim that younger women (aged 18 and thereabout) are considered more attractive than women in their mid 20’s. This is not necessarily something that Tate himself believes, but a summation of the beliefs held in many Islamic countries around the world. To read this quote and use it to accuse Tate of misogyny is dishonest. Even if Tate does believe this, it certainly doesn’t follow that a person is misogynistic for having preferences for women based on age.
What I can see throughout this interview is that it’s very easy to extract very small snippets of things that a person says and blow them out of proportion with social media. And so here, I think Andrew is right in pointing out that the continual decline of people’s attention spans create unnecessary controversy like this. Tate has said some disgusting things, but in listening to him expound on what he really believes and how they came about, I have gained a degree of understanding and respect for him that I didn’t have before.
It’s worth mentioning that at one point they came to agree on a very important point which I was glad to see. At 48:10 Piers says “If you bracket together everybody who’s not clinically depressed and who doesn’t have the genuine medical condition, then if millions of people are deemed to have depression, the ones who really need the help don’t get it.” Andrew Tate says he agrees on this point. That’s excellent. Piers is totally right on this point. And I agree there are too many doctors who too readily diagnose people with depression and prescribe them medications. It makes sense that such people would then turn from the medical doctors and resonate with what Tate says. But you cannot discount the fact that there are definitely some people who suffer through serious, debilitating depression to the point where medicine does wonders to relieve and normalize them.
I think the more important question that we should ask about Tate, is if there is any truth to the allegations of illegal sexual trafficking and sexual assault. He is currently under criminal investigation by the Romanian government. What he tweets on social media is just words. I’m more concerned about actions. He claims he has no criminal record and has never been abusive towards women, but I don’t know. Fleeing to Romania to start a pimping business seems kind of suspect to me. Pimping is not “righteous” behavior anyway, even it’s done legally. And I don’t see how he can be doing this while claiming to believe in traditional marriage and families.
So then, to summarize…
I think Andrew Tate is a man of great abilities, no doubt a talented fighter, well-spoken, and astute. I would say that if it is the case that he has helped people overcome depression, then that is wonderful, and a force for good in the world. I share some of his ideas, but strongly disagree with some others. I definitely share his mindset about appreciating traditional masculinity, and I completely agree that intense physical exercise, and combat training in particular, is one of the most powerful forces for defeating depression and anxiety. I do not agree that 18 year old women are more attractive than 25 year old women. It’s probably the case that the older you are, whether you’re male or female, the more sexual experience you have. I don’t even agree necessarily that virginity makes a woman more attractive. This sounds like something you’d hear from a Muslim Jihadist. When I hear something like that, it sounds a bit like saying you prefer a younger, more inexperienced, more innocent woman because it’s easier to take advantage of her. You want someone who is easier to prey on. It can be interpreted as misogynistic when you think about it. On the topic of depression, I definitely am with Piers on that, but I appreciate that Tate is respectful in his disagreement. I myself would not seek medical advice from Tate anymore than I would seek his advice on any other topic outside his area of expertise. But for the people that follow him and find value in what he says, then more power to you. Finally, I think long-format interviews of this type are important to hash out ideas. This conversation was fruitful, substantive, and revealing, and those are good things.
First of all, I respect both of these gentlemen for their willingness to talk things out in a respectful way. They agree on some things, disagree on some others, and that's totally fine. For those who think Piers is grilling him too hard, you must understand that this is the nature of British journalism. Everyone who accepts an interview with a Brit must understand this.
I have to jump right in and address the issue of depression, because it is the most important one to me personally.
A few years ago I read some comments from Mr. Tate where he claimed that “depression is not real”. Admittedly I did not listen to the entire hour-long segment from which this quote was taken, nor did I have any desire to do so. To me it sounded blatantly ignorant and wrong. So when I decided to listen to this interview, I had some very negative preconceived notions of the man.
First of all, Andrew Tate contradicts himself. At timestamp 46:45, Tate says “I don’t believe depression as a clinical disease is real”. But then at 50:13, he says “I am reading the emails of people who have I have cured of clinical depression”. Tate’s initial take on clinical depression is that it is an incurable disease that a person is stuck with for life. Now, if it is the case that Tate has helped people overcome depression, then obviously his original understanding was wrong. There is some form of depression, at least in Tate’s mind, that can be cured and overcome. But then, it cannot be the case that Tate has actually cured anyone of any real, clinical depression, since as per his own definition, clinical depression, as a disease, has no cure. Therefore, it follows that the people who he has claimed to help could not have truly had clinical depression in the first place. For Tate so claim he has cured people with clinical depression, he is acknowledging that clinical depression is real.
I myself believe that clinical depression is a real disease, but I also believe that it can be cured. I also completely support regular, intense physical exercise as one of the best means to combat it. I train Muay Thai and Boxing 4 days a week, and it has done incredible things for both my anxiety and depression. I have also seen many other ways to remedy depression - an outlet for musical expression is a big one for me, as well as good sex, and proper diet.
I see a doctor for depression and anxiety. I don’t believe my doctor has ever said to me that I have an incurable disease. We have worked together to find treatment options that work. In my personal experience, medications have helped me. I have read about negative side effects that some people have when taking medications, but fortunately I have never seen any of them in my case. The medications have done no wrong to me. I understand they have been ineffective or even dangerous for some people, and for those people, it is your choice not to take them. Different chemicals affect different people in different ways. In monitoring the medication’s affects on my mind and body, along with a doctor’s supervision, I can safely say that they have only helped me. I do not however claim that medications alone are enough to overcome the disease.
Now, on the question of whether or not depression should be classified as a disease, I say yes. By this I am not claiming that it is some kind of permanent illness that people are born with, or that it is engrained into a person’s genes, or that it can be detected in the same way that other diseases can. I am however claiming that when compared to many undisputed diseases, depression is much worse. I can think of many diseases I would rather have.
Some people say that alcoholism is a disease. I have disputed this for similar reasons that Tate disputes depression. Those who insist it is a disease will indeed try to convince problem drinkers that they are powerless over their illness and they need to accept this. Anyone who has been to an AA meeting knows this. Now, here is where I can completely relate to what Tate is saying. I think it is terribly dangerous and unhealthy to tell someone that they are powerless to overcome a drinking problem. It is completely false and it is a weak, defeatist attitude to take. I absolutely have control over alcohol, even though at times in the past I worried that it was an issue. I can tell you that the treatment centers are totally ineffective and cause way more problems than they solve. If this is the mindset Tate takes about depression, then I can totally understand.
However, Tate shows a lack of consistency again when he admits that PTSD is real. Victims of PTSD usually also suffer chronic depression. When Tate says that everyone is able to control their minds, and that they should reject labeling depression as a disease, then logically, he ought to say the same thing about PTSD. And yet he claims PTSD is real. This is illogical.
Broadly speaking, one of the biggest problems of having a mental illness just is the inability to control one’s mind and thoughts.
So let me get back to this interview. Piers brings up sound bites throughout the interview which he then allows Tate to expound upon, which I think is fair. Some of the views Tate appears to have really are taken out of context though. For example, one of the quotes that Piers brings up is Tate’s claim that women become the property of men when they get married. Actually, this appears to be biblically true. Ephesians 5:22-30:
"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands." Ephesians is part of the new testament, but the old testament is particularly replete with misogyny. It’s no secret that women in the ancient world were treated as being less valuable than men. If Tate is being asked to answer for the way that ancient holy books describe women, then I don’t think it’s fair to take his quotes and attribute them to Tate himself.
On the issue of traditional marriage, I don’t think that from a religious standpoint either of these men can honestly say they uphold its values. Frankly, both of them are hypocrites in what they say and do. Tate is an unmarried adulterer who regularly engages in premarital sex. He has no basis to claim that he believes in traditional marriage. Likewise, Piers claims to be a Christian yet he denies biblical scripture and condones illegitimate marriages between two men or two women.
Piers again brings up a similar quote from Tate which is taken completely out of context. Tate made the claim that younger women (aged 18 and thereabout) are considered more attractive than women in their mid 20’s. This is not necessarily something that Tate himself believes, but a summation of the beliefs held in many Islamic countries around the world. To read this quote and use it to accuse Tate of misogyny is dishonest. Even if Tate does believe this, it certainly doesn’t follow that a person is misogynistic for having preferences for women based on age.
What I can see throughout this interview is that it’s very easy to extract very small snippets of things that a person says and blow them out of proportion with social media. And so here, I think Andrew is right in pointing out that the continual decline of people’s attention spans create unnecessary controversy like this. Tate has said some disgusting things, but in listening to him expound on what he really believes and how they came about, I have gained a degree of understanding and respect for him that I didn’t have before.
It’s worth mentioning that at one point they came to agree on a very important point which I was glad to see. At 48:10 Piers says “If you bracket together everybody who’s not clinically depressed and who doesn’t have the genuine medical condition, then if millions of people are deemed to have depression, the ones who really need the help don’t get it.” Andrew Tate says he agrees on this point. That’s excellent. Piers is totally right on this point. And I agree there are too many doctors who too readily diagnose people with depression and prescribe them medications. It makes sense that such people would then turn from the medical doctors and resonate with what Tate says. But you cannot discount the fact that there are definitely some people who suffer through serious, debilitating depression to the point where medicine does wonders to relieve and normalize them.
I think the more important question that we should ask about Tate, is if there is any truth to the allegations of illegal sexual trafficking and sexual assault. He is currently under criminal investigation by the Romanian government. What he tweets on social media is just words. I’m more concerned about actions. He claims he has no criminal record and has never been abusive towards women, but I don’t know. Fleeing to Romania to start a pimping business seems kind of suspect to me. Pimping is not “righteous” behavior anyway, even it’s done legally. And I don’t see how he can be doing this while claiming to believe in traditional marriage and families.
So then, to summarize…
I think Andrew Tate is a man of great abilities, no doubt a talented fighter, well-spoken, and astute. I would say that if it is the case that he has helped people overcome depression, then that is wonderful, and a force for good in the world. I share some of his ideas, but strongly disagree with some others. I definitely share his mindset about appreciating traditional masculinity, and I completely agree that intense physical exercise, and combat training in particular, is one of the most powerful forces for defeating depression and anxiety. I do not agree that 18 year old women are more attractive than 25 year old women. It’s probably the case that the older you are, whether you’re male or female, the more sexual experience you have. I don’t even agree necessarily that virginity makes a woman more attractive. This sounds like something you’d hear from a Muslim Jihadist. When I hear something like that, it sounds a bit like saying you prefer a younger, more inexperienced, more innocent woman because it’s easier to take advantage of her. You want someone who is easier to prey on. It can be interpreted as misogynistic when you think about it. On the topic of depression, I definitely am with Piers on that, but I appreciate that Tate is respectful in his disagreement. I myself would not seek medical advice from Tate anymore than I would seek his advice on any other topic outside his area of expertise. But for the people that follow him and find value in what he says, then more power to you. Finally, I think long-format interviews of this type are important to hash out ideas. This conversation was fruitful, substantive, and revealing, and those are good things.
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