[layman]

Its a paranoia that comes with constantly being invaded throughout history and a healthy dose of government propaganda both old and new.

They are also one of the most expansionistic nations in history. They, along with the US, are also one of the two big countries who kept the land they conquered, hense how fucking big they are.

Still, its the western europeans we always remember as the imperialists, even though we lost all ours

[Igor Antunov]

These 'tensions' appear miniscule precisely because there are not enough ethnic russians in the far east to chafe at foreign immigration, and because russian territorial integrity is not under 'threat'.

In 2009, Medvedev - then Russia's president - had a meeting with Chinese President Hu Jintao and the two reached an agreement under which China would develop the Russian Far East region and thus obtain access to natural resources. The development of the region would then make it most attractive for Russians to relocate there, thus alleviating fears of a Chinese takeover of the region. The Chinese would use a predominantly Chinese workforce, but these would be on temporary visas and would then leave once the work had finished. This program, if successful, would have killed two birds with one stone.

There's your answer. It's not an 'invasion' or 'takeover' it's an economic agreement and China has Russia's blessing to develop the far east. The official boundaries will never change. Russia is a major nuclear power and it's borders will be respected because all prior border disputes with the PRC have been settled. So what if 100 million chinese end up living across Russia's far east by 2100? Millions live in the US and Canada and they will continue to come in droves. Once they move and settle they come under Russian jurisdiction and laws.

[Travesty]

They are also one of the most expansionistic nations in history. They, along with the US, are also one of the two big countries who kept the land they conquered, hense how fucking big they are.

Still, its the western europeans we always remember as the imperialists, even though we lost all ours :?:

You Serious? Who did Russians take Sibera from? The Chukcha nation? The Khanate of Sibir? Well Sorry... Still nothing compared to 200 thousand British controlling India with a population of 350, million people. Or Belgian control of the Congo, or using gunboat diplomacy on the Chinese to sell them opium. Or wiping out millions of indigenous people in North and South America and forcibly converting the rest to your religion.
Or developing scientific racism to justify your domination of indigenous people. Its a real shame that your economy couldn't sustain your continued subjugation of millions of people overseas completely alien to your culture and society.

[SE23]

I can see the Chinese invading Russia because of their women, China has a lack of women, yet Russia has an overflow of them, saying that no one is stupid enough to try and invade Russia, they are crazier than a box of frogs over there.

[Rainbow Crow]

Russian women are pretty cute.

In 100 years the declining Russian population will have moved out of that region almost entirely. Meanwhile the rising Chinese population will have moved into it to escape overpopulated, poisoned China in search of better wages. China then buys this land from Russia because Russia has not used it in centuries? Doesn't sound that far fetched to me.

[pikachu]

This thread is literally overflowing with idiocy.

Russia has NUKES.

China DOESN'T have "hordes".

Normal Chinese would MUCH RATHER live in ethnic Chinese Heilongjiang and Jilin than eke it out illegally in the fucking Siberian taiga.

Wages for low-skilled labor in the Far East are only marginally higher than in northern China, and they are eaten up by the MUCH GREATER expenses of living there.

EVEN IF China invades, though of course it won't because Russia has NUKES, but let's assume it does because we are paranoid ignoramuses who don't know shit, all the infrastructure for resource extraction will be DAMAGED or DESTROYED. China will have to REBUILD all that shit. Why should it do that when Russia SELLS its Far Eastern resources to China anyway?

You know, your posts were far more enjoyable before you developed anger issues. Tolerance is key, my friend.

Igor Antunov

Russia is a major nuclear power

Nukes really make no difference. Russia isn't going to commit suicide just to "avenge" the loss of the far east. Russia has had far worse periods of its history and far worse losses - the loss of the far east would never be an existential threat, hence the nukes are irrelevant.

The official boundaries will never change.

Never say never.

[Beren]

So what if 100 million chinese end up living across Russia's far east by 2100?

Russia will be half-Chinese then, I guess. Does such a vision make you horny?

Millions live in the US and Canada and they will continue to come in droves. Once they move and settle they come under Russian jurisdiction and laws.

Neither the US nor Canada has common borders with China.

As far as I know the Chinese always keep their allegiance to China. If they ever flood Russia's far east, it will stop being Russian for sure.

[Travesty]

This is ridiculous so there are 300 thousand to 1 million Chinese in Russia (which is an estimate pulled out of someone's ass hence the massive difference) in a country of 144 million so what now all of a sudden all of Siberia is gonna be overflowing with Chinese hordes? And I love how Canada is not relevant all of a sudden. Canada's intake of Chinese immigrants is 220, thousand a year, this in a country of 35 million and those are just the official numbers. In fact China is buying Canadian energy companies like Athabasca Oil Sands Corp, Daylight Energy Ltd, Nexen oil just recently and others, China now has almost monopolized the oil sands. When China will start sending 250, thousand Chinese to Russia every year and start buying out Gazprom, Lukoil and Sibneft then it will be a cause for concern for Russia.

[Magnetonium]

This thread is literally overflowing with idiocy.

Russia has NUKES.

China DOESN'T have "hordes".

Normal Chinese would MUCH RATHER live in ethnic Chinese Heilongjiang and Jilin than eke it out illegally in the fucking Siberian taiga.

Wages for low-skilled labor in the Far East are only marginally higher than in northern China, and they are eaten up by the MUCH GREATER expenses of living there.

EVEN IF China invades, though of course it won't because Russia has NUKES, but let's assume it does because we are paranoid ignoramuses who don't know shit, all the infrastructure for resource extraction will be DAMAGED or DESTROYED. China will have to REBUILD all that shit. Why should it do that when Russia SELLS its Far Eastern resources to China anyway?

So what that Russia has nukes? I have new information for you - China has nukes too! And you know what that means? That means that neither country will use them against each other. And if Chinese army invades Siberia, I doubt that Russian army will be nuking its own territory.

Russian Far East is a demographic disaster, natural population decline among some of the worst in the country. Without Chinese or immigrant labour the economy in the region is destined for failure. 100 million Chinese across the border will eventually have a lot of economic and political power over Russia's Far East. They don't even have to send in tanks or millions of troops. They can take stranglehold of Siberia economically. And then Russians in Vladivostok will be looking towards Beijing and not Moscow.

And besides, some Chinese are looking at Primorye region as Chinese territory. It was Chinese up until the 1800's. I am sure Chinese haven't forgotten that! Just like China hasn't forgotten about its other centuries-old claims ...

[Travesty]

Russian Far East is a demographic disaster, natural population decline among some of the worst in the country. Without Chinese or immigrant labour the economy in the region is destined for failure. 100 million Chinese across the border will eventually have a lot of economic and political power over Russia's Far East. They don't even have to send in tanks or millions of troops. They can take stranglehold of Siberia economically. And then Russians in Vladivostok will be looking towards Beijing and not Moscow.

Oh damn...I never new that Russia was invaded by 100 million Chinese?!! Holy Shit! Of course there aren't even a million Chinese in the far east and the region isnt designated (by whom?) for economic collapse. The Chinese require Visas to enter Russia and thousands are stopped by border security every year and those Visas can be revoked at any time. Like everything the Far East suffered decline after the collapse of the USSR its far from the center thus harder to develop, it is being developed now and not neglected as billions are being poured into it yearly. Vladivostok isnt a hell hole and is a developed city and the Russian govt showcases it almost every year with some international summit or another. The thing that slows down the growth and development is the corruption in government and that cannot go on forever as it is the number one issue in Russia that everybody including Putin and Medvedev talk about (even though they are thieves themselves). And the demographic decline is attributed to the disaster of the 90's, furthermore the demographics have been improving steadily since 2000 due in part to gasp* successful govt policies, Russia's current demographic situation is not worse than that of Japan or Germany and what? Are Turks set to take over Bavaria now?

[Andropov]

Short-term, the Chinese and Russians are natural allies against Western influence.

Long-term, as China's population grows and land becomes more and more densely populated and its population more and more in need of resources, it seems absurd that it would not seek to expand into Siberia, belonging currently to a declining power with a dying population. Global warming would make Siberia some of the best land on the planet.

This is made even more likely by extreme Chinese chauvinism that would put interwar German chauvinism to shame- the Chinese see themselves are the most advanced and worthy civilization, and are looking to eventually rule the world. Considering how poorly China was treated by the West in recent centuries, this is also compounded by hatred for Europe for abusing China.

[Magnetonium]

Oh damn...I never new that Russia was invaded by 100 million Chinese?!! Holy Shit! Of course there aren't even a million Chinese in the far east and the region isnt designated (by whom?) for economic collapse. The Chinese require Visas to enter Russia and thousands are stopped by border security every year and those Visas can be revoked at any time. Like everything the Far East suffered decline after the collapse of the USSR its far from the centre thus harder to develop, it is being developed now and not neglected as billions are being poured into it yearly. Vladivostok isnt a hell hole and is a developed city and the Russian govt showcases it almost every year with some international summit or another. The thing that slows down the growth and development is the corruption in government and that cannot go on forever as it is the number one issue in Russia that everybody including Putin and Medvedev talk about (even though they are thieves themselves). And the demographic decline is attributed to the disaster of the 90's, furthermore the demographics have been improving steadily since 2000 due in part to gasp* successful govt policies, Russia's current demographic situation is not worse than that of Japan or Germany and what? Are Turks set to take over Bavaria now?

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Its a bad analogy comparing Turks in Germany versus Chinese in Russia. For one, China is right beside Russia. And you haven't refuted my points apart from blaming the demographic problem on the 90's and stating that everything's fine. I never said that Vladivostok is a shitty run-down city. Its a well to-do medium-sized Russian city and important port. Tell more about those *gasp* successful government policies at reversing Russia's demographic problems. You think that by giving parents financial incentives in order for them to have more babies, that will put the end to the problem once and for all? Demographic problem is not only because of low birth rate, bud. Its also because of many other factors, including the BRAIN DRAIN and emigration, lower life expectancy, drugs abuse and higher mortality rates (alcohol poisoning, cancer rates, poor health care system, numerous vehicular accident deaths in the many thousands, and one of the highest suicide rates in the world). Until they stop the high death rate, population will not grow much. And you can't give people free money and expect things to change. A lot more work has to be done.

Short-term, the Chinese and Russians are natural allies against Western influence.

Long-term, as China's population grows and land becomes more and more densely populated and its population more and more in need of resources, it seems absurd that it would not seek to expand into Siberia, belonging currently to a declining power with a dying population. Global warming would make Siberia some of the best land on the planet.

This is made even more likely by extreme Chinese chauvinism that would put interwar German chauvinism to shame- the Chinese see themselves are the most advanced and worthy civilization, and are looking to eventually rule the world. Considering how poorly China was treated by the West in recent centuries, this is also compounded by hatred for Europe for abusing China.

Well written post. One thing for sure is chauvinism and Chinese nationalism can be a dangerous force in the future. History is the lesson here, even Soviet Union / Russian Empire have attempted to subjugate the Chinese when they were weaker. Every powerful nation becomes tempted to become egoistic and expansive, and China has every potential to become the most powerful country in the world. 1.5 billion or so Chinese people and their economic and military power is growing exponentially.

[stalker]

I will take a short stint from my second self-imposed exile to address this thread.

You know, your posts were far more enjoyable before you developed anger issues. Tolerance is key, my friend.

I am no a tolerast. Learn to deal with it.

And it isn't anger. It is a well-merited and respectable attitude of self-assertive aggression, which is a reflection of my virile nature and martial values.

So what that Russia has nukes? I have new information for you - China has nukes too! And you know what that means? That means that neither country will use them against each other. And if Chinese army invades Siberia, I doubt that Russian army will be nuking its own territory.

If Russia was ruled by liberals (like yourself), then no Russia would not nuke China. That is because they hate Russia. The first thing they will do is transfer Russia's nukes into NATO ownership, sell all the pipelines to the IMF, and send patriots to reconstituted Gulags.

That is because the liberals are essentially latter-day Stalinists, without the mitigating factor of Stalin's patriotism.

Fortunately you do not control Russia. All aggressors will be repelled without mercy and maximum annihilation. That is because it is better to die on one's feet like live on one's knees. A concept of honor and national dignity that is incomprehensible to the liberal mind.

Oh and Russia has many more nukes than China anyway.

Russian Far East is a demographic disaster, natural population decline among some of the worst in the country. Without Chinese or immigrant labour the economy in the region is destined for failure.

No it is not the population is stable and the Chinese population is about 250,000 mostly made up of seasonal traders anyway.

They can take stranglehold of Siberia economically. And then Russians in Vladivostok will be looking towards Beijing and not Moscow.

In the same way that Australians are now looking towards Beijing and not Canberra.

[Travesty]

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Its a bad analogy comparing Turks in Germany versus Chinese in Russia. For one, China is right beside Russia. And you haven't refuted my points apart from blaming the demographic problem on the 90's and stating that everything's fine. I never said that Vladivostok is a shitty run-down city. Its a well to-do medium-sized Russian city and important port. Tell more about those *gasp* successful government policies at reversing Russia's demographic problems. You think that by giving parents financial incentives in order for them to have more babies, that will put the end to the problem once and for all? Demographic problem is not only because of low birth rate, bud. Its also because of many other factors, including the BRAIN DRAIN and emigration, lower life expectancy, drugs abuse and higher mortality rates (alcohol poisoning, cancer rates, poor health care system, numerous vehicular accident deaths in the many thousands, and one of the highest suicide rates in the world). Until they stop the high death rate, population will not grow much. And you can't give people free money and expect things to change. A lot more work has to be done.
.

You are preaching to the choir here. Im fully aware of the list of problems you mentioned. And giving subsidies to women is a start, increased wages, increased employment, increased security might have also contributed wouldnt you say. The fertility rate has been improving steadily. And I really cant attribute the demographic collapse to anything other than the 90's maybe you know something I dont.

If Russia was ruled by liberals

Russia IS ruled by liberals. Look at the economic policy. Who do you think Medvedev, Kudrin, the Fursenko's, Shuvalov are? Even Putin crawled out of the same cespool spawned by Eltsin and the familly. Mind you the recent cabinet changes surpised me as many Patriotic minded people where selected but still, the current regime is Liberal. It serves primarily the Russian kombrador elite bourgeoisie and works for global financial interests.

[pikachu]

I am no a tolerast. Learn to deal with it.

Which is a real shame because I honestly think you were just generally more enjoyable to read when you were more of a tolerast, regardless of even my agreement or disagreement with you. Now you just always come across as extremely bitter/angry even if you may not be. I think Dave has overall similar opinions as yourself but I never see him acting this way. I don't mean to lecture you, i'm just stating my personal preference, which you are free, as i'm sure you will, disregard.

which is a reflection of my virile nature and martial values.

I'm convinced.

[Istanbuller]

In 100 years the declining Russian population will have moved out of that region almost entirely. Meanwhile the rising Chinese population will have moved into it to escape overpopulated, poisoned China in search of better wages.

I highly doubt that this will happen, maybe partly. I read somewhere that Chinese population is going to be one of the world's elderly populations in in a few decades, because of the one child policy and other reasons. There will be labor shortage and China's large population will go to be trouble for itself.