[Baff]

If I move to Japan, I will become Japanese.

No more than my goldfish will become a dog after feeding it kibble.

What you choose to label yourself is defined by no one but yourself.

If your dog chooses to think of himself as a goldfish, then nothing you can say will prevent him.

Who I choose to identify myself with nationally is my decision. You can choose who you wish to identify yourself with nationally. But who I choose to identify myself. What I choose my nationality to be, is quite beyond your say so.

If I move to Japan I will become Japanese.
The Japanese love themselves far too much to allow me to join them with any split loyalties and I love them all the more for this.

[Far-Right Sage]

What you choose to label yourself is defined by no one but yourself.

No, this is certainly not the case, and is very much the same as arguing that a chair is a banana and that there are multiple interpretations of anything. No, in reality, the chair is a chair, the banana is a banana, my goldfish is a goldfish, and you're not Japanese.

Aside from extremely multicultural nations (disgraces), what makes one a part of a nation has far more to it than whether one moves there or not. A white or black foreigner moving to Japan will never be Japanese. Don't let Tom Cruise's "The Last Samurai" fool you.

[Baff]

While I don't expect to be considered Japanese by many Japanese people or even you.
I will still be legally Japanese and think of myself to be Japanese.

And neither you nor anyone else can take that away from me.
I consider the ease of my assimliation into that culture or any other will be greatly improved by my will to be so.

Certainly a lot less Japanese will be willing to think of me as Japanese if I go round pretending to still be English.

[Section Leader]

Almost entirely British with some Irish ancestors.

[Far-Right Sage]

While I don't expect to be considered Japanese by many Japanese people or even you.
I will still be legally Japanese and think of myself to be Japanese.

And neither you nor anyone else can take that away from me

And when you are turned away from the bath houses and social clubs marked barring gaijin (non-Japanese/foreigner/alien) perhaps they can explain to you better than I why you are not Japanese.

[Far-Right Sage]

While I don't expect to be considered Japanese by many Japanese people or even you.
I will still be legally Japanese and think of myself to be Japanese.

And neither you nor anyone else can take that away from me

And when you are turned away from the bath houses, social clubs, and other establishments marked barring gaijin (non-Japanese/foreigner/alien) perhaps they can explain to you better than I why you are not Japanese.

[Baff]

I wasn't planning on spending much time in brothels.

There is gaijin and then there is flyjin. Gaijins are liked better.

There are plenty of Japanese people who accept me. More than I need to live a happy and full life.
Given my qualifications, contacts and experience, I can actually expect my standards of living and social status to much improve for moving there.

Instead of focusing on their intolerances, I shall instead prefer to focus on other aspects of their society. The ones that appreciate me. The ones that recognise my contributions to be an asset to them.

Plus if I buy myself a farm, who cares? No one who doesn't like me will ever have to meet me.

[Far-Right Sage]

Alright Baff, I'm done with this line of discussion.

What I have been trying to convey is that there is more to nationality than learning the language and adopting the culture. Japan is one of the most ethnically homogeneous countries in the world and they'd like to keep it that way. I've heard of many areas in which other Orientals, such as Han Chinese and Koreans, are definately considered outsiders regardless of their ability to speak Japanese.

I'm sure they appreciate visitors, however.

[TruePolitics]

The Japanese think of themselves as a pure race. They believe that Amaterasu, the Sun Goddess, established the Japanese race many centuries ago. They also think they are superior to the rest of the world.

[Far-Right Sage]

I'm not sure how many Japanese actually believe that, but it has helped form a sense of fraternity, purpose, national myth, and a "secret club" mentality. A close examination of Japan's ethnic preservation quickly reveals that this has worked and associated sentiments must proliferate throughout the Japanese people to some extent, whether they are devout practitioners of Shintoism or not.

[nucklepunche]

I consider myself to be culturally an American and I am of European descent. My family has been in this country long enough that I can't remember the nearest immigrant on any side of my family. I have only traced my father's side back to great grandparents and I know my mother's side has been in this country since 1600s. In time culture evolves and I can say I feel Europeans to be culturally alien. Maybe if I came out of a more recent "immigrant experience" I would feel differently but I am a white bread American through and through. I am one of those people who put "American" on the long form census.

[Baff]

Alright Baff, I'm done with this line of discussion.

What I have been trying to convey is that there is more to nationality than learning the language and adopting the culture. Japan is one of the most ethnically homogeneous countries in the world and they'd like to keep it that way. I've heard of many areas in which other Orientals, such as Han Chinese and Koreans, are definately considered outsiders regardless of their ability to speak Japanese.

I'm sure they appreciate visitors, however.

And what I am attempting to counter your portrayal of nationality with is that it's all in the eyes of the beholder.
What nationality means to you is subjective to you.

There are specific elements of my own nationality that I do not fit neatly into either.
I don't have to go to Japan to feel like an outcast. I can do that right here or indeed anywhere in the world should I choose to focus on those parts only or in exclusion of all others.

My nationality is not dependant on me seeing eye to eye with everyone of the same nationality on every issue or being made welcome at every social event.
You take the good with the bad.

You don't get to be another nationality just because you empathise with them or their histories more on certain issues or share certain tastes and geneologies. However romantic.
I could trace my lineage all around the world and my doing so does not make me more or less English.
It is my current circumstance that defines my nationality only. I am who I am.

It is quite within my ability to change this and if I emigrate, I fully expect to.
Who I choose to throw my lot in with will be my own choice.
Will there be racist elements that I shall have to deal if I do so. Of course.
Will I be willing to, I expect so.
And if not, a Japanese national is about as welcomed everywhere as a British one.

[polethics]

My background is a mix of 4 different descend. My father's father is from Spain while his mom hails from Japan. My mother's father hails from China while her mother is born in the Philippines. I cannot declare what could be my middle nationality.

[Lexington]

I Am A Real American...Fight for the rights of every man

But every now and then, I call upon my Norwegian ancestors that raided the nations of Europe a thousand years ago and inflicted lutefisk on humanity and also my Finnish ancestors who...uh...well there was that thing with the Russians and now they make cell phones.

[Smertios]

I identify myself not in terms of nationality but in terms of RACE, and I'll tell you why. My background is a mix of 5 or 6 different European countries, so what sense would it make for me to label myself 6 different things? I'm German, Swedish, Polish, Russian, and Austria-Hungarian. Thus, I'm just about as white as you can get. I'm proud to be of such pure, white heritage.

This is something that really bothers me about Americans. They are always saying stuff like that, as if they had any cultural connections to those ancestries at all.

I mean, seriously, have you ever set up a maypole and dance around it for midsummer, like Swedes do? Have you ever dressed properly for an Oktoberfest, like Germans? Or paint real chicken eggs for Christmas, like Poles do?

Being proud simply because you have those ancestries in your family tree is a bit weird, since most of the shared culture your family might have had with those peoples has been lost with time. What you are is American. You say there isn't such thing as an American identity, because the culture is too diverse, but that is a lie. I mean, haven't you ever celebrated the 4th of July with fireworks, for example? Or went to a baseball match. Or haven't you ever watched the Super Bowl? Eat a hotdog or hamburger? Do you not like American musical styles, such as jazz, country, rock, etc?

So there is a nation-wide shared American identity. The only difference between the US (or Brazil, or China, or India, or Russia, or Australia, or Canada or any other country that is too big) and European countries is the fact that it is a huge country, so regional identities will also exist.

Now, I have to agree with you that you should be proud to be a White American. But it should also be important that you should be proud to be from a white heritage in that country. I mean, would you seriously say you are culturally closer to a white in Brazil or South Africa than to another American? That sounds crazy. If the only thing you are proud of is your whiteness, then that means you are more proud to have had ancestors in Europe a long time ago than having being raised in a family in America. Those ancestors probably had cultures that are completely different from yours. They spoke different languages, they were raised with different ideals in mind. Your country even went to war with some of them. If the US was to declare war on Russia, Austria, Hungary, Germany, Sweden and Poland, what side would you take, really?

There will be a time when Americans will have to realize that the fact that some of them are 1/128 Cherokee doesn't mean he is a Cherokee... Most of my ancestors come directly from Portugal. I also have a few ancestors in West Africa and probably in other Southern European states. And that is besides the obvious amerind (Tupian) heritage I probably have. But seriously, those ancestors lived so long ago, in such distant places, it is really hard for me to connect to any of them. And, when seeing amerinds or african cultures wherever I can see them, I find them to be completely alien to me. Even Portugal, which is probably the closest country to Brazil, culturally, is completely different from here. Their language has evolved so differently than ours, for example, that sometimes it is a lot easier for me to understand an Argentinian speaking Spanish than a Portuguese speaking European Portuguese.

Of course, that doesn't mean I shouldn't be proud of my heritage. But, before that, I have to be proud of being Brazilian, since it is that identity I was raised in...

Aside from extremely multicultural nations (disgraces), what makes one a part of a nation has far more to it than whether one moves there or not.

Hmm, why do you live in a multicultural nation, if you hate it so much?

A white or black foreigner moving to Japan will never be Japanese.

This is true. Brazilians of Japanese descent that went back to Japan after a while suffer a lot of prejudice within the society, despite being of Japanese origin. And lots of them are purely Japanese, ethnically. And even then they consider them to be complete aliens...

The Japanese are much more nationalistic than most peoples on this planet...

[Far-Right Sage]

Hmm, why do you live in a multicultural nation, if you hate it so much?

I built a life here over the course of generations and gravitated toward the place of my birth despite my family's origins. It is multiculturalism as it is pushed today which I despise, not any nation. People can quote the words of America's founders, whom I disagree with on much, but I would also argue that white men of a certain age with property and membership in the church were the only ones voting when they were around, and immigration meant a few Germans or Irishmen. None ever envisioned an open border with Mexico or a steady stream of people pouring in from East Asia, India, and Latin America.

[Smertios]

I built a life here over the course of generations and gravitated toward the place of my birth despite my family's origins. It is multiculturalism as it is pushed today which I despise, not any nation. People can quote the words of America's founders, whom I disagree with on much, but I would also argue that white men of a certain age with property and membership in the church were the only ones voting when they were around, and immigration meant a few Germans or Irishmen. None ever envisioned an open border with Mexico or a steady stream of people pouring in from East Asia, India, and Latin America.

But a society composed by Irish, English, Germans, Italians etc is also multicultural, just not multiracial. Unlike most of Europe, the US never really had one single majority church, for example. Are you sure you are against multicultiralism, not just multiracialism?

And, well, this is kind of unrelated to the subject, but I'm curious, what do you think about Hawaii? That state never really had a white majority. After the US conquered the kingdom, Japanese and Filipino immigrants came and now it is the multicultural mess it is today...

[Far-Right Sage]

But a society composed by Irish, English, Germans, Italians etc is also multicultural, just not multiracial. Unlike most of Europe, the US never really had one single majority church, for example. Are you sure you are against multicultiralism, not just multiracialism?

Multiracialism of course comes part and parcel, but I would say multiculturalism, moreso in ethnic states, but in the United States as well. Although I wouldn't set about deporting or delegitimizing ethnic Poles or Italians in 21st century America, I always have maintained that the preservation of an Anglo-Saxon nation was desirable.

And, well, this is kind of unrelated to the subject, but I'm curious, what do you think about Hawaii? That state never really had a white majority. After the US conquered the kingdom, Japanese and Filipino immigrants came and now it is the multicultural mess it is today...

Hawaii might have worked better as U.S. property without a definitive say in U.S. governance, as in the cases of Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands. When I was in Hawaii, in the late 70's, I recall hearing more Japanese than any native Hawaiian language. As it stands now, it's a healthy source of premium coffee and pineapples (although the U.S., to the chagrin of many, is importing more and more pineapples from China), it has a tourism industry which is only challenged by a few states (CA, FL, NY), and has a novelty as a unique destination, providing a tropical place for mainland Americans to escape to without getting a passport. So as it stands, it's not a major grievance for me.

[Smertios]

Multiracialism of course comes part and parcel, but I would say multiculturalism, moreso in ethnic states, but in the United States as well. Although I wouldn't set about deporting or delegitimizing ethnic Poles or Italians in 21st century America, I always have maintained that the preservation of an Anglo-Saxon nation was desirable.

Yes, but what if all those immigrants (be it from Southern And Eastern Europe, Latin America or Asia) are actually assimilated into the mainstream Anglo-Celtic culture of the US? I mean, that is what is happening, anyway. It won't be really multiculturalism after a few generations, when the original immigrant population will be completely assimilated.

My main problem with immigration is when it comes in massive scales. The outsiders form large population blocks that won't be assimilated and eventually form a different culture.

The US will not lose their Anglo-Celtic identity just because there are some Italian and Polish genes within the population. Just like Brazil will never lose its Latin/Romanic identity just because there are some Germanic, African and Amerindian genes floating around....

Hawaii might have worked better as U.S. property without a definitive say in U.S. governance, as in the cases of Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands. When I was in Hawaii, in the late 70's, I recall hearing more Japanese than any native Hawaiian language. As it stands now, it's a healthy source of premium coffee and pineapples (although the U.S., to the chagrin of many, is importing more and more pineapples from China), it has a tourism industry which is only challenged by a few states (CA, FL, NY), and has a novelty as a unique destination, providing a tropical place for mainland Americans to escape to without getting a passport. So as it stands, it's not a major grievance for me.

Yes, but what would your reaction be in case Hawaii decided to become independent based on the fact that they were never really "American", from a cultural point of view?

[CounterChaos]

My main problem with immigration is when it comes in massive scales. The outsiders form large population blocks that won't be assimilated and eventually form a different culture.

There are some very interesting theories about this floating out there as to why this started and persists in the United States - I agree though - slow assimilation (natural assimilation) in my opinion is not detrimental to the integrity of a nation.

Irish/French