[| I, CWAS |]

It wouldn't be very Libertarian like to actually register for the selective service. So whats it like avoiding it and being charged with a crime by the government? I know you can't recieve federal funds, or get federal jobs, but you guys reject the federal government for the most part anyway, and would never take its money. Anyone have to do time for refusing to register for the slave state draft?

[Rex Little]

There's nothing un-libertarian about registering for the draft. You do it for the same reason you pay taxes or give your wallet to a mugger: they've got a gun on you.

[Noumenon]

Forcing people to register for the draft is the unlibertarian action, not going along with it to avoid jail. I might as well ask you if you are being un-liberal for not refusing to pay the taxes that fund the Iraq war. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with protesting something and at the same time going along with it because you are forced to. Now you might be on to something if the situation here got so bad that we were fully slaves to the state. In that case, you might call us cowards and not real libertarians for choosing to remain slaves rather than fight. As my sig says, "give me liberty or give me death!"

[| I, CWAS |]

Forcing people to register for the draft is the unlibertarian action, not going along with it to avoid jail. I might as well ask you if you are being un-liberal for not refusing to pay the taxes that fund the Iraq war. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with protesting something and at the same time going along with it because you are forced to. Now you might be on to something if the situation here got so bad that we were fully slaves to the state. In that case, you might call us cowards and not real libertarians for choosing to remain slaves rather than fight. As my sig says, "give me liberty or give me death!"

A good liberal always pays his taxes, because there is no way to know if you are causing one less cop to be on the streets. And my taxes are what gives me the upmost authority to speak on the war

[Comrade Ogilvy]

A good liberal always pays his taxes, because there is no way to know if you are causing one less cop to be on the streets. And my taxes are what gives me the upmost authority to speak on the war

Actually, free speech is what gives you the authority to speak on the war. I don't recall Germans being able to speak out against the war (WW2), despite the many taxes they paid.

When you pay your taxes, CWAS, you are helping to fund the most externally aggressive war machine in existence. How does that make you feel, Mr. High-and-Mighty taxpayer?

[| I, CWAS |]

Actually, free speech is what gives you the authority to speak on the war. I don't recall Germans being able to speak out against the war (WW2), despite the many taxes they paid.

When you pay your taxes, CWAS, you are helping to fund the most externally aggressive war machine in existence. How does that make you feel, Mr. High-and-Mighty taxpayer

We aren't nazi germany, well at least yet. You do realize that taxes go to more than the war right? I'm proud to pay police salary, oh wait policeman can be agressive and some kill people, doesn't matter I believe in the citizens duty to his fellow man, and back up my beliefs. Versus the lip service that libertarians give, actually look in the history forum, it shows the true libertarians refusing to sign up for the selective service, some got jailtime some got probation, doesn't matterm they actually stood up and fought for what they believed in, versus lip service. Praxis is the key.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

We aren't nazi germany, well at least yet. You do realize that taxes go to more than the war right? I'm proud to pay police salary, oh wait policeman can be agressive and some kill people, doesn't matter I believe in the citizens duty to his fellow man, and back up my beliefs. Versus the lip service that libertarians give, actually look in the history forum, it shows the true libertarians refusing to sign up for the selective service, some got jailtime some got probation, doesn't matterm they actually stood up and fought for what they believed in, versus lip service. Praxis is the key.

Yes, taxes go to fund far more than the war, for the leviathan state has many tentacles that need our blood to feast on. We get to subsidize special interests, send money to corrupt government, pay for junk science, ruin education, pay the terminally lazy, oppress businessmen, kill people, imprison drug users, and many other evil schemes.

For the record, CWAS, I did not register for the Selective Service. My colors don't run.

[smashthestate]

Versus the lip service that libertarians give, actually look in the history forum, it shows the true libertarians refusing to sign up for the selective service, some got jailtime some got probation, doesn't matterm they actually stood up and fought for what they believed in, versus lip service.

Well aren't liberals such as yourself also against the draft? Have you chosen not to sign into it or do you actually support the Selective Service and the draft?

[Garibaldi]

CwaS, how the hell can you call yourself liberal and support the police? Granted, they're a necessary function of government, but with all the unjust laws and the unjust actions of police, surely you must boycott taxes to prevent such things as racial profiling, police brutality, and drug laws?

And no, I'm not registering for the draft; I'm voluntering for Officer Training. Yeah, I'm against our aggressive tactics in international relations; it's still the best option for me.

[Todd D.]

So let me get this straight. It's hypocritical for Libertarians to register for the draft, despite it being against Libertarian principles, but it's not hypocritical for you, a liberal, to register for the draft, pay your taxes that at least in part fund the Iraqi war, etc?

I have half a mind to just delete this entire thread because it's based on such a stupid premise, but since the rest of the crew has shown what an idiotic statement it is, I'm going to leave it.

[carmabl]

It's cousin, of course" is the "you consume government services therefore you are a hypocrite argument" against libertarianism. Apart from the fact that these are strictly ad hominem attacks, the problem with they logically lead to the unseemly outcome that anyone who obeys the government's rules or consumes it services automatically loses the right to criticize the government. That philosophy, in turn, implies that the government can silence criticism simply by expanding its power.

The government is constantly trying to expand the size of the political class in order to consolidate its own power. Arguments such as these merely confirm that kind of speculation.

[| I, CWAS |]

It's cousin, of course" is the "you consume government services therefore you are a hypocrite argument" against libertarianism. Apart from the fact that these are strictly ad hominem attacks, the problem with they logically lead to the unseemly outcome that anyone who obeys the government's rules or consumes it services automatically loses the right to criticize the government. That philosophy, in turn, implies that the government can silence criticism simply by expanding its power.

The government is constantly trying to expand the size of the political class in order to consolidate its own power. Arguments such as these merely confirm that kind of speculation.

Lets see you argue against federal government
yet you get benifits of it
now its easy to deduce the fact that thats illogical, you can criticize all you want, but it still makes you a hypocrite, as I said before I know REAL Libertarians who don't use city water, nor the police, and they bitch and moan about the roads, but that one is understandable. Its common sense, and you need to double check your definition of ad-hominem, it can't be ad-hominem if it is pointing out logic errors in an ideology

[Noumenon]

Lets see you argue against federal government
yet you get benifits of it
now its easy to deduce the fact that thats illogical, you can criticize all you want, but it still makes you a hypocrite, as I said before I know REAL Libertarians who don't use city water, nor the police, and they bitch and moan about the roads, but that one is understandable. Its common sense, and you need to double check your definition of ad-hominem, it can't be ad-hominem if it is pointing out logic errors in an ideology

Any accusation of hypocrisy is ad hominem, CWAS. You are attacking the person, not the idealogy. Showing that followers of an ideology are hypocrites does not have any relavence to whether the ideology is logical or not. If all followers of that idealogy were hypocrites because it is not logically possible to follow it completely, then you might have a point. But that is obviously not the case here, since you pointed out "real" libertarians who follow your idea of what libertarianism should be completely.

Now whether we are hypocrites is still an important question, even if it is ad hominem. Most libertarians use government services, pay taxes, and protest against both. Where is the hypocrisy? Say a thief steals $500 from you and gives you a $100 bike in return. You believe theft is wrong. You could have risked your life by trying to kill the thief, who may have been armed, but you didn't. You could have refused the bike on principle, but you didn't. You figured that you might as well get what you "paid" for, even if the money was stolen from you and you could have gotten a lot better bike if you spent the $500 yourself. Where, in any of this, did you contradict your belief that theft is wrong by your actions? You never did. One can not resist a mugger for fear of his life and still believe stealing is wrong. One can accept a service from a thief which was paid for with his own money and still believe theft is wrong. Simply replace "thief" with "government," "bike" with "city water, roads, etc.," and "theft is wrong" with "taxes are theft, which is wrong." Libertarians are not hypocrites either.

[Todd D.]

Lets see you argue against federal government yet you get benifits of it

Benefits that we argue could be better, cheaper, and more efficiently provided by the private sector. I have no choice but to use public water and roads, since I am paying for it anyway. Consumer and Fiscal responsibility is the center of the Libertarian system, who unlike Welfare Staters don't think that just throwing the government and other peoples' money at a problem is the sollution. I have no choice but to listen to the Police. A bullet to the head doesn't provide me much to the choice. Your argument is goofy as fuck.

now its easy to deduce the fact that thats illogical, you can criticize all you want, but it still makes you a hypocrite, as I said before I know REAL Libertarians who don't use city water, nor the police, and they bitch and moan about the roads, but that one is understandable.

Again, an argument that is goofy as fuck. If I had the choice to choose between paying for public services or paying for private ones, then you'd have a point, but no such choice exists.

And as Noumenon said, you calling someone a hypocrite is Ad-Hom. Not that I care, coming from the king of them, but don't deny what you say. Then again, you are a liberal, consistency and logic never really was your strong suit.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

I believe in fighting for one's country and would gladly go to war anyway, so if there ever is a draft it's simply a tug on an otherwise choice I'd already make but am too lazy to put into action.

I think you can oppose beliefs you fight for, alot of nazi soldiers were like that back in world war 2. It is up to you as a person to find the moral dignity to stand-up to your supiriors for the sake of what you believe in. You may be put in jail, you may die, maybe even worse. But that is a risk you'd be willing to take to support your dreams. And that rule applies to everyone, not just libertarians.

That's what America is all about.

[Todd D.]

Big Evil, that's one theory, but I tend to support the theory that says that you should work within the system. I support Animal Right's activists having the right to say what they do, but no matter what justification they come up with, it's not OK when they spike trees or burn down buildings. It's illegal and they deserve to be punished.

I register for the draft because essentially there is a gun to my head otherwise. Bottom line. Same reason that I pay taxes and same reason that I don't do Cocaine (well, no that's a different reason, but you get the idea).