[The American Lion]

We all know what happens to nations who uses Isolationism. Just look at America in the 1930s. We let Hitler unchecked. What does the libertarians provide us to protect us agaist a future version of Hitler? That means by a forigen leader quickly building a military for offencive means only.

[Russkie]

America was not a military power during that time, it's rank wasn't even on the top 10s list.

[Todd D.]

Some madman carving up Europe is not the concern of the United States, no more than some madman carving up the Middle East is the concern of the United States.

If Americans feel very strongly about what is going on in other countries, they can doe exactly what the Americans did before Pearl Harbor, and that is sign up for the British Air Force or volunteer for another country's military, but as far as full scale American involvement, it is not American's responsibility to bail out England or France when it comes to military invasion.

[The American Lion]

So you will let your allies die? If a mad-man was going for world conquest. You have to know that he or she will come for you next. Just make it easyer and help your allies. Before the mad-man has armies on America.

[Todd D.]

Allies in what sense? Keep in mind that we reject that whole "If they invade you, we'll invade them" mentality. That's what turned a simple assassination by a criminal into a World War if you remember. Like I said, if you care so much about what's going on, then sign up for their military, they will be more than happy to have you. Then focus on National Defense, ensure that your borders are secure, and that you are prepared in case they invade you.

[The American Lion]

Thats one thing I dont like about the Libertarianism on defense. That we have to get Bitch slap by the enemy first before we do anthing about it.

[Todd D.]

Not necessarily, in the same way that you don't have to get shot to defend yourself against a robbery. There must be a clear iniation of force by someone else, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a "bitch slap". It can be an attempted attack, a clear threat of invasion, something like that.

Having weapons, being "a meanie", being Communist, selling drugs, etc. Do NOT fall under these categories.

[The American Lion]

Ok, if an foreign Army conquers Europe and England. You know there comming for you next.

[TROI]

that is sign up for the British Air Force

All ten of them?

Ok, if an foreign Army conquers Europe and England. You know there comming for you next.

Like who? Iraq?

[Todd D.]

Ok, if an foreign Army conquers Europe and England. You know there comming for you next.

Then you will have plenty of time to prepare, won't you?

[SpiderMonkey]

Some madman carving up Europe is not the concern of the United States, no more than some madman carving up the Middle East is the concern of the United States.

If Americans feel very strongly about what is going on in other countries, they can doe exactly what the Americans did before Pearl Harbor, and that is sign up for the British Air Force or volunteer for another country's military, but as far as full scale American involvement, it is not American's responsibility to bail out England or France when it comes to military invasion.

Firstly, the war in Europe would've done against the Nazis with or without American help - although American help did turn the tide against them quicker. That's another issue.

Secondly, had the Nazis overrun Britain, and then been able to concentrate their military on destorying the USSR, then Nazi Germany would've become a superpower.

So, you've got two post WW2 scenarios - one with a totalitarian superpower controlling Russia and half of Europe, and another with a totalitarian superpower controlling Russia and all of Europe. Say what you like about the Bolsheviks - the Nazis were much much worse.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Ok, if an foreign Army conquers Europe and England. You know there comming for you next.

Hence the concept of an ARMED neutrality. Also, we could turn any potential invasion force into an atomic inferno in minutes.

[Pope Perseus Peptabysmal]

Thats one thing I dont like about the Libertarianism on defence. That we have to get Bitch slap by the enemy first before we do anthing about it.

What's your point? The enemy may bitch slap you with a Pearl Harbor or a 9/11, but if you don't get involved in idiotic wars, you can swiftly pimp slap the motherf**kers back. See?

[Pope Perseus Peptabysmal]

Edit, double post. That hasn't happened before.

[Fernando]

Isolationalism is not an option.

Every time that US has wanted to isolate itself it has been involved in two WW (with about 300,000 US troops deaths each). The same for England, Spain,...

You can not avoid to get involved in what other countries are doing. US is not Switzerland. You can maintain isolated while Mexicans and Canadians don't go crazy but, at last, you will be affected. Or were you going to let Afghanistan (I think Iraq is not the same case), a country specifically dedicated to destroy you, let their way?

For the record, it is TRUE that Europeans are trusting too much in US military spending and that we should spend more and better in weapons.

[Todd D.]

Firstly, the war in Europe would've done against the Nazis with or without American help - although American help did turn the tide against them quicker. That's another issue.

Secondly, had the Nazis overrun Britain, and then been able to concentrate their military on destorying the USSR, then Nazi Germany would've become a superpower.

So, you've got two post WW2 scenarios - one with a totalitarian superpower controlling Russia and half of Europe, and another with a totalitarian superpower controlling Russia and all of Europe. Say what you like about the Bolsheviks - the Nazis were much much worse.

Im confused here Spider, what are you advocating? The fact remains that the war in Europe was not a United States matter. Americans may have been concerned, and many did end up joining the British Royal Air Force as volunteers, but that was not at American Taxpayer's expense.

England being invaded by Germany, even if it was one of the most homicidal maniacs ever, is not a matter of the United States.

[The American Lion]

What's your point? The enemy may bitch slap you with a Pearl Harbor or a 9/11, but if you don't get involved in idiotic wars, you can swiftly pimp slap the motherf**kers back. See?

Its better to cut off the head of the snake before is bites you.

[Todd D.]

Guilty until proven Innocent then?

No, unless there is a clear and present danger against the people of the United States, it's simple arrogance on Americas part. We are not liberators of foreign armies, we do not have a right to tell people that they should not be communist, we do not have a right to dictate drug laws to foreign countries.

With the exception of Afghanistan, every single war that we have been in since World War II has been complete bullshit.

[The American Lion]

You do know that Communism is a threat to our lifestye. Why dont you stop it now before its lands on our shores?

[Todd D.]

You do know that Communism is a threat to our lifestye. Why dont you stop it now before its lands on our shores?

Communism is only a threat to our lifestyle if it is on our shores. North Korea being Communist is not in any way a threat to our lifestyle, any more than Europe being Socialist is. Shit, most of the Middle East is a theocracy, and that's not our business either.

Fact is that until there is a clear and present danger to the people of the United States, it is quite simply not the United States business to meddle in, not their responsibility to pay for the invasion and subsequent rebuilding of a nation.