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Classical liberalism. The individual before the state, non-interventionist, free-market based society.
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By AFAIK
#14257133
Is the concept of duress grounds for reneging on a contract?

I lose my way in the wilderness and find myself on the verge of dehydration when a stranger appears and says the he will provide me with water, food, shelter and transportation in exchange for becoming his indentured servant. Can I argue my way to freedom if I can prove to a court that I was acting under duress at the time?

What if I agree to work on a fishing boat and sign a contract that is valid for 60 days but due to inclement weather the boat remains at sea past the expiration of this contract. The captain of the boat presents me with a contract that would tie me to a life of servitude and threatens to throw me overboard or refuses to share rations with me if I fail to sign. In this situation my oversight when signing the original contract led to my predicament.

What if instead of (my future) labour my savior wanted all my (currently existing) property?

What if an oligarch owns all the arable land for 1000 miles?
What if my employer has a monopoly on housing and many essential goods?
What if the supply of labour is so much higher than demand that people are prepared to work in any conditions for minimal enumeration?

How do anarcho- capitalist feel about wage slavery i.e do what I say or die?
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By Poelmo
#14257136
AFAIK wrote:Is the concept of duress grounds for reneging on a contract?

How do anarcho-capitalist feel about wage slavery i.e do what I say or die?


Oh man, you've opened a can of worms. Technically duress doesn't matter to anarcho-capitalism, though I suppose that IF you do make it out back into freedom you can try sueing afterwards and hope the an-cap court has a shred of humanity (meaning they don't send you back to "complete your contract"). Alternatively there's the possible deterrence of people boycotting other people who abuse people under duress.

A while ago I started a thread with a scenario where a person was locked up by someone who erected a $1 billion toll zone around the victim (who could either have walked into the trap, or be born into it) and was then starved to death or given the choice to starve or work for food inside the enclosure. That didn't end so well, an-caps were quick to deny the founding principles of their ideology to talk themselves out of this problem, or they tried to convince me that the deterrence of being known as a slaver (IF someone ever found out and IF people would care) would be enough to prevent this scenario from occurring. Naturally this didn't exactly reassure me...

You could also observe an-cap allows people to dump a child (or at least an orphan) on the streets to die and ask what would happen to a person that everyone refuses to sell food to. Oh yeah, ask yourself how an an-cap society would deal with people with alzheimer's and such...
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By Eran
#14257169
AFAIK wrote:Is the concept of duress grounds for reneging on a contract?

That depends on whether the duress was caused by the other party to the contract and on other questions such as fraud and ability to enter the contract rationally.

In many of the scenarios you presented, there are good causes to void the contract.

Further, most libertarians reject indentured servitude contracts.

Finally, and this isn't a peculiarly libertarian question, the remedies available upon violation of a contract are often limited to (reasonable) losses incurred.

Thus in your first scenario, most libertarians would reject the indentured servitude nature of the contract.

In the second scenario, the captain is clearly obliged to bring you the safe land before demanding compliance with his terms as a condition of remaining on his boat.

How did the oligarch come to own all the arable land for 1000 miles? That ownership is only considered legitimate if the oligarch purchased it "fair-and-square" from its legitimate owners. Each of the previous owners is happier (presumably) with the proceeds of the sale than he was before. If that was the case, I don't see the cause of concern.

How did your employer come to have a monopoly on housing and many essential goods? If it is because your employer owns the town into which you moved, surely that is something you knew of in advance. Further, you have the right to move away if you don't like the terms they offer.

If the supply of labour is much higher than demand, and people are prepared to work in any conditions for minimal remuneration, surely that is more just than only allowing a smaller number of labourers to work for higher wages, while committing the unemployed to total starvation, right?

Finally, keep in mind that it is just as easy (in fact much easier) to come up with similar scenarios under any system, including our own.


What if my government decided to impose a 99% property tax, thereby confiscating all my property?
What if my government decided on a 25 year conscription to "civil corps" and sent me to work in the salt mines?
What if my government decided that, due to my political opinions, affiliation with a disliked ethnic minority, or the colour of my hair, I am to be confined to concentration camps until the end of the War on Terror?

Any of those scenarios is more likely (in fact all of them actually took place in the past 100 years) than some of those you described.

Poelmo wrote:Technically duress doesn't matter to anarcho-capitalism

You are showing a remarkable combination of confidence and ignorance. Anarcho-capitalist legal theory is a complex (and evolving) body of thought, certainly not susceptible to knee-jerk responses.

Naturally this didn't exactly reassure me...

Can you reassure me regarding the scenarios I listed above on government action (given the actual record of governments engaging in precisely those kinds of actions, if not worse)?

If not, why should anybody expect to find absolute reassurances in any type of human society?

You could also observe an-cap allows people to dump a child (or at least an orphan) on the streets to die and ask what would happen to a person that everyone refuses to sell food to. Oh yeah, ask yourself how an an-cap society would deal with people with alzheimer's and such...

What if government decided, due to fiscal problems or otherwise, to stop funding all government orphanages?

Why would such a scenario, given that there is a single decision-maker controlling funding, is deemed less likely than the scenario in which no voluntary organisation is available to care for orphans, despite a history of centuries of precisely such organisations?
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By AFAIK
#14257210
Eran wrote:In many of the scenarios you presented, there are good causes to void the contract.

Further, most libertarians reject indentured servitude contracts.


What if he offered to sell the water to me for $1mn then lent me $1mn as I only had $5 on my person? Would the contract be legitimate if 2 people found me and 1 loaned me the money and the other made the sale?

In the second scenario, the captain is clearly obliged to bring you the safe land before demanding compliance with his terms as a condition of remaining on his boat.


What if a storm blows us out to sea and we run out of fuel? Is the captain obliged to share any rations he packed with me or am I going hungry due to my own neglect? Can he sell me rations at extortionate prices?

How did the oligarch come to own all the arable land for 1000 miles? That ownership is only considered legitimate if the oligarch purchased it "fair-and-square" from its legitimate owners. Each of the previous owners is happier (presumably) with the proceeds of the sale than he was before. If that was the case, I don't see the cause of concern.


Lets say a group conspires to form a cartel. Price fixing tolls, potentially at prices so high that I am imprisoned or....

Perhaps land owner A sells to land owner B this has an effect on other land owners in the locality. Land owner K may wake up one morning to find his property completely enclosed by landowner B. K has a right of way established on this land as he regularly transports his goods to market on horseback. Overtime technology advancements make it more profitable to transport goods using vehicles powered by internal combustion engines. K wishes to use an ICE to transport his crops but B objects on the grounds that the larger heavier vehicle would cause greater damage to her crops and top soil. She also objects to the noise and smoke produced by the vehicle. If K continues using horses as transportation he will be put out of business as his competitors will undercut his prices. Do you recognize the position of power that B now holds over K?

How did your employer come to have a monopoly on housing and many essential goods? If it is because your employer owns the town into which you moved, surely that is something you knew of in advance. Further, you have the right to move away if you don't like the terms they offer.


Do I have any homesteading rights if I was born there?

If the supply of labour is much higher than demand, and people are prepared to work in any conditions for minimal remuneration, surely that is more just than only allowing a smaller number of labourers to work for higher wages, while committing the unemployed to total starvation, right?


What if a global solidarity movements made up of labour and consumer groups pressured the company to improve wages and working conditions at the expense of shareholder dividends?

If you wish to live in an an-cap world you need to make it sustainable. If the majority of the population is suffering destitution and (in their view) injustice then they are likely to abandon NAP and forcefully redistribute property by way of land reform and taxation. I can see an-cap going 1 of 2 ways;

1- The capitalists make voluntary arrangements to redistribute wealth so as to appease the impoverished majority and engage in intense propaganda campaigns in an attempt to scare people away from statism, socialim, communism, etc.

2- Capitalists abandon NAP and terrorize and oppress the poor with extreme violence. Also a propaganda campaign claiming that they are protecting freedom, not their class interests.

Finally, keep in mind that it is just as easy (in fact much easier) to come up with similar scenarios under any system, including our own.


I didn't mean to suggest that inequality and injustice are unique to an-cap. I want to explore what, if any, checks and balances exist to prevent or redress them.
User avatar
By Eran
#14257219
What if he offered to sell the water to me for $1mn then lent me $1mn as I only had $5 on my person? Would the contract be legitimate if 2 people found me and 1 loaned me the money and the other made the sale?

...

What if a storm blows us out to sea and we run out of fuel? Is the captain obliged to share any rations he packed with me or am I going hungry due to my own neglect? Can he sell me rations at extortionate prices?

Reasonable legal processes have evolved for centuries under the Common Law. I see no reason why, in a libertarian anarchy, we won't continue that tradition of reasonableness.

Exactly where the boundary lies in particular, unlikely, extreme cases, may well be a difficult question to answer. Under any system.

Perhaps land owner A sells to land owner B this has an effect on other land owners in the locality. Land owner K may wake up one morning to find his property completely enclosed by landowner B. K has a right of way established on this land as he regularly transports his goods to market on horseback. Overtime technology advancements make it more profitable to transport goods using vehicles powered by internal combustion engines. K wishes to use an ICE to transport his crops but B objects on the grounds that the larger heavier vehicle would cause greater damage to her crops and top soil. She also objects to the noise and smoke produced by the vehicle. If K continues using horses as transportation he will be put out of business as his competitors will undercut his prices. Do you recognize the position of power that B now holds over K?

Sure. K may be better off either selling his property, or negotiating terms with B.

I must stress, though, that such scenarios can easily be constructed under any legal system. The question isn't whether any legal system will perfectly render intuitively-just results under any and all scenarios, but rather which legal system as applied in practice by reasonable people under common conditions, is more likely to result in just outcomes.

Further, every society and every legal system are ever-evolving. Even governments evolve and often improve their performance over time. Motivated individuals and for-profit corporations tend to be much more responsive. So while it is easy to paint an isolated instance of potential injustice, it is much more difficult to extrapolate from that to a sustainable long-term pattern of injustice.

Thus if the problem you describe above is at all common, people will quickly learn of the need to negotiate flexible, "technology-proof" rights of way. Perhaps agree on common, democratic control over critical arterial roads. Or strong preference to relocate to places served by multiple, competing, reputable road operators.

Do I have any homesteading rights if I was born there?

Homesteading is the process of acquiring property rights in previously-unowned resources. Nobody has "homesteading rights" over resources that are already owned. Everybody has "homesteading rights" over unowned resources.

What if a global solidarity movements made up of labour and consumer groups pressured the company to improve wages and working conditions at the expense of shareholder dividends?

As long as the pressure doesn't involve force, but merely threats of boycott and the like, it is perfectly legitimate. It seems to me, however, to be counterproductive.

The pressure will have the inevitable effect of raising prices or lowering wages for other workers. It is an illusion to believe that above-market wages can sustainably be paid by reducing dividends. Explaining why would require a divergence (albeit an interesting one) into economics.

Since the consumers would have to pay for their pressure through higher prices, they may as well contribute money directly to the needy workers, rather than rely on the indirect and unreliable process you describe.

If you wish to live in an an-cap world you need to make it sustainable. If the majority of the population is suffering destitution and (in their view) injustice then they are likely to abandon NAP and forcefully redistribute property by way of land reform and taxation.

I agree. However, I don't think the scenario you paint is likely. Much more likely is that economic freedom will (as it has always) result in unprecedented growth and prosperity.

1- The capitalists make voluntary arrangements to redistribute wealth so as to appease the impoverished majority and engage in intense propaganda campaigns in an attempt to scare people away from statism, socialim, communism, etc.

2- Capitalists abandon NAP and terrorize and oppress the poor with extreme violence. Also a propaganda campaign claiming that they are protecting freedom, not their class interests.

You are making the mistake of implicitly accepting socialist propaganda. In a free market it is much more difficult to acquire, and even more difficult to maintain, high levels of wealth.

To make excess returns, a capitalist needs to continually innovate, or else face inevitable competition that tends to drive prices down to the cost of production, and wages up to the marginal productivity.

Without protective government regulation (including intellectual monopolies), a free society will see a much more vital, dynamic, competitive market. A few people may come with great ideas that create great wealth, a small part of which they retain. More typically, however, capitalists will find life much more difficult, constantly facing new entrants that force them to "squeeze down" any excess profits.

I didn't mean to suggest that inequality and injustice are unique to an-cap. I want to explore what, if any, checks and balances exist to prevent or redress them.

The best ones, namely the resolute and unwavering protection of private property rights.

As soon as society institutionalises and legitimises violations of property rights, it becomes very easy to excuse, rationalise and popularise such violations. The effective control over the institutions legitimised in robbing others (the political sphere) quickly passes to the most powerful elements in society (whether by wealth or social popularity). Even when, as is common today, there is broad sentiment that such powers ought to be used to benefit the weak, the practical combination of self-interest, economic ignorance, hidden costs, political demagoguery, rational ignorance (by voters) and the inherent knowledge problems of central planning all conspire to frustrate even the best of intentions.
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By Poelmo
#14257364
Eran wrote:You are showing a remarkable combination of confidence and ignorance. Anarcho-capitalist legal theory is a complex (and evolving) body of thought, certainly not susceptible to knee-jerk responses.


100 anarcho-capitalists, 100 opinions... Anarcho capitalism was meant to be simple and be self-consistent, even if some of its outcomes would be at odds with conventional morality, there's no room for all kinds of exceptions. An-cap has always been willing to accept starving orphans as the price of freedom.

Eran wrote:Can you reassure me regarding the scenarios I listed above on government action (given the actual record of governments engaging in precisely those kinds of actions, if not worse)?


No, but the burden of proof isn't one me. I'm not claiming to have some simple one-rule-fits-all solution.

Eran wrote:Why would such a scenario, given that there is a single decision-maker controlling funding, is deemed less likely than the scenario in which no voluntary organisation is available to care for orphans, despite a history of centuries of precisely such organisations?


Again, I'm not claiming other systems are perfect or that simple rules can solve all problems. But I can answer your question: a government eliminates free rider problems and tragedy of the commons type of problems.
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By Eran
#14257390
100 anarcho-capitalists, 100 opinions... Anarcho capitalism was meant to be simple and be self-consistent, even if some of its outcomes would be at odds with conventional morality, there's no room for all kinds of exceptions. An-cap has always been willing to accept starving orphans as the price of freedom.

Staving orphans are no more an inevitable part of anarcho-capitalism than they are an inevitable part of constitutional democracy.

There is wide difference of opinion amongst constitutional democrats about what their constitution implies. That's ok, as long as there is an acceptable dispute resolution mechanism.

Within an an-cap society there may well be differences of opinion as well. But as long as we agree on how disputes ought to be resolved, that's not a big problem.

No, but the burden of proof isn't one me. I'm not claiming to have some simple one-rule-fits-all solution.

Sure you do. I assume you support the US Constitution, don't you?

And who ever said anarcho-capitalist legal order is "simple"? The basic rule is simple, but the real world isn't.

Consider the First Amendment. "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech". Sounds simple, yet hundreds of court cases and countless legal briefs have argued over its exact meaning and implementation.

The NAP is like the constitution of an an-cap society. It is simple, just is the US Constitution. However, as applied to real-world cases, especially convoluted, borderline, problematic and hypothetical cases, its interpretation ceases to be simple.

a government eliminates free rider problems and tragedy of the commons type of problems.

No, it doesn't. At best, it may eliminate those problems. Or it may not. There is no certainty.

I could just as easily say "charity eliminates social problems over the elimination of which the need to eliminate there is broad consensus".
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By SecretSquirrel
#14261460
In the fishing boat example, you probably had a clause in the first contract which stipulated that the captain must return you safely to land as soon as possible after the contract is complete.

If you didn't have such a clause and you stepped onboard his ship, you are a moron. Just saying...
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By Eran
#14261615
I believe in a legal practice that uses reason and convention to "fill in the blanks" in written, explicit contracts.

Thus unless the contract between you and the captain explicitly stipulated that you would be liable to arbitrary costs should the boat not return to port in time, and you could reasonably be expected to understand that, and you explicitly agreed to such terms (in which case you really are an idiot...), any reasonable judge would conclude that such term is implied, and proceed as if the term was there.

Again, libertarianism is radically different from current legal practice in that it doesn't rely on legislation.

It isn't radically different in the rules, processes and procedures associated with arriving at legal conclusions.

Libertarian judges aren't going to be robots, mechanically applying the NAP to every situation. They are going to be (hopefully) wise and sensible people, using the NAP as a broad guidance, but otherwise taking into account reasonableness, community standards and conventions, established legal precedence, and all the other factors that judges today take into account.

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