[Rothbardian]

It is not the state you need to look to if you want to end the horrors of war; you need to look to yourself.

This is a free book from the Institute for Psychohistory and can be found here:

http://www.psychohistory.com/

From the first chapter:

KILLER MOTHERS OF TERRORISTS
Even if groups such as terrorists who do not have Motherlands to fuse with and die for, they still do have real mothers who play that role. Islamic terrorists today regularly report their mothers brought them up to be a suicide bomber, a martyr, even picking which son should die and which must remain alive to support her in her old age.18 One mother of a Palestinian suicide bomber who had blown himself to bits told the reporter “with resolutely cheerful countenance,” “I was very happy when I heard. To be a martyr, that’s something. Very few people can do it. I prayed to thank God. I know my son is close to me.”19 Since he had been about to graduate from the university—that is, about to separate from his mother, to be independent, the mother felt she was about to “lose” him and preferred that he be “with” her in memory, and he himself felt “If I blow myself up and become a martyr, I’ll finally be loved by my mother.” They consciously think suicide will finally give them love from Allah, but they unconsciously think it will give them love from Mother.20

All the other Killer Motherland devices mentioned above for warriors are paralleled in terrorists. Explosive devices to kill themselves and innocent civilians are called “Mothers of Satan.” In Gaza, a mother of three Hamas suicide bombers videotaped their paths to suicide, saying she wished she had 100 sons to sacrifice rather than three, and was made famous as “The Mother of Martyrs.”21 Mothers often dress their little children in pretend explosives to encourage their suicide. Terrorists often drag themselves after being shot to their mothers, saying, “O my mother, I have been martyred,” or “You bore me to die.”22 Witnesses report that “When at last her son is martyred, she is said to be overjoyed to hear the news and emits a zaghrada (a high-pitched wailing sound made by women on happy occasions such as the entrance of a bride and groom at their wedding), sometimes even expressing the wish that all her sons will thus be taken.”23

What kind of mothers are these who not only tell their children they should commit suicide for Allah but let them watch daily TV messages in between cartoons that say they should kill themselves and even give them suicide belts to march around to practice their suicides?24 Like mothers everywhere, when they inflict abuse on their children they are simply repeating abuse that was committed on them when they were little girls. That terrorist cultures treat females horribly is well known. When a girl baby is being born, Islamist cultures traditionally dig a hole next to the birthing bed in case it is female and might be infanticided. A large majority of all girls in Islamist cultures are raped, and are even often blamed for their rape, since it is assumed that “those who don’t ask to be raped will never be raped.”25 Most girls have their genitals painfully mutilated around 6 years of age by their mothers, who as they chop off their clitoris and labia joyfully chant: “Today I am the master, for I am a man. Look—I have the knife in my hand…Your clitoris, I will cut it off and throw it away for today I am a man.”26 Genital mutilation is practiced by Islamist families from 40 countries; a recent survey of Egyptian girls and women, for instance, showed 97 percent of uneducated families and 66 percent of educated families still practiced female genital mutilation.27 As girls grow up they are treated as polluted beings, veiled, and routinely beaten by their mothers and husbands.28 It is no wonder that Physicians for Human Rights found that 97 percent of women they surveyed in Islamic areas suffered from severe depression.29 Such life-long painful physical and sexual abuse surely does not help a woman give love to her children; she passes on her beating, burning, cutting, kicking, and stabbing to the next generation.

...

What kind of mothers are these who not only tell their children they should commit suicide for Allah but let them watch daily TV messages in between cartoons that say they should kill themselves and even give them suicide belts to march around to practice their suicides?24 Like mothers everywhere, when they inflict abuse on their children they are simply repeating abuse that was committed on them when they were little girls. That terrorist cultures treat females horribly is well known. When a girl baby is being born, Islamist cultures traditionally dig a hole next to the birthing bed in case it is female and might be infanticided. A large majority of all girls in Islamist cultures are raped, and are even often blamed for their rape, since it is assumed that “those who don’t ask to be raped will never be raped.”25 Most girls have their genitals painfully mutilated around 6 years of age by their mothers, who as they chop off their clitoris and labia joyfully chant: “Today I am the master, for I am a man. Look—I have the knife in my hand…Your clitoris, I will cut it off and throw it away for today I am a man.”26 Genital mutilation is practiced by Islamist families from 40 countries; a recent survey of Egyptian girls and women, for instance, showed 97 percent of uneducated families and 66 percent of educated families still practiced female genital mutilation.27 As girls grow up they are treated as polluted beings, veiled, and routinely beaten by their mothers and husbands.28 It is no wonder that Physicians for Human Rights found that 97 percent of women they surveyed in Islamic areas suffered from severe depression.29 Such life-long painful physical and sexual abuse surely does not help a woman give love to her children; she passes on her beating, burning, cutting, kicking, and stabbing to the next generation.

(I don't really have a point here, just found this interesting and doesn't really fall into any of the specific forum topics)

[SolarCross]

The article is more Islamophobic propaganda than anything else.

Most girls have their genitals painfully mutilated around 6 years of age by their mothers

Simply not true.

The idea that statism has its origins in poor parenting has some merit though. Stefan Molyneux talks about that quite a lot, his argument does make some sense.

[Eran]

Possibly.

As I see it, humans have an instinct for obeying legitimate authority, first biologically evolved to help infants and toddlers under the loving supervision of their parents, and later for stabilizing small hunter-gatherer bands under an internal hierarchy.

Political leaders (first local war-lords and ultimately emperors and modern-day presidents) tap to that obedience instinct (and the related group loyalty instinct) to solidify their self-interested power.

I think Molyneux may overstate the direct link between obedience to parents (and parents' occasional use of force against their children) and the later obedience that these children give to the state.

[fuser]

]The idea that statism has its origins in poor parenting has some merit though. Stefan Molyneux talks about that quite a lot, his argument does make some sense.
Image

Can you expand up on his argument, it makes no sense. When states and state like structure arose, there was no concept of parenting or family as we know it today.

[SolarCross]

Eran - Are you a parent? I am and I can tell you my son's first instinct was not to obey my 'legitimate authority' but to do as he pleased. Naturally this results in a conflict of authority and interests: I want him to go to bed before 9pm and he wants to stay up until he drops. The question then is how do we solve this conflict? Reasoned argument, bargaining or force? It is always tempting for a parent to resort to force: it is quick easy and because the physical might of a grown person utterly dwarfs that of a child practically guarantees at least a short term win for the parent. However by doing so we are teaching children that the way to get what you want is through force, and we are teaching them to surrender to superior force as a reflex. In extreme cases we may even crush their spirits entirely. From these lessons they will grow up to try to be tyrants and to be obedient to tyrants. It may interest you to know that Stalin's father was a drunken bully..

Fuser - I have no idea where you got the idea that states predate parenting but it patently wrong. Is it from some stalinist doctrine that the state is the true father of the people or some such nonsense?

[fuser]

Libertarians. They can't even answer one simple and direct question but dodge it with irrelevant shits.

When states and state like structure arose, there was no concept of parenting or family as we know it today.

You want me to make you understand a simple statement like that too? In hunter gatherers society and in early agricultural society from which state like organization emerged, raising of a child was not limited to their genetic parents, but it was a communal responsibility and humans didn't lived as "couples" with one sex partner making a clear distinction for a child, who is his/her father or mother.

So, my question still stands but I understand why you were totally unable to answer that as there is no answer, it makes no sense at all.

[SolarCross]

Fuser - Whether a child is raised by blood relatives or a pack of wolves is irrelevant to Stefan's point about parenting by means of force trains children to grow up to be either bullies or the slaves of bullies.

[fuser]

I didn't knew about Stefan's point and I wasn't countering his point and that's why I asked you to expand on it but you went berserk and refused to answer.

I googled the man and his points are just bollocks (which I don't wish to argue here) but I still couldn't find anyplace where he is arguing that statism has its origin in bad parenting which is again bollocks.

[SolarCross]

Fuser - Okay I did expand on it in the section addressing Eran but fair enough I didn't make that clear in my address to you.
This is going off topic but are you one of those people that subscribe to the theory that mothers and fathers are a bourgeois conspiracy?

[fuser]

conspiracy? Mothers and Fathers came long before the advent of capitalism ergo "Bourgeoisie", which socialist books are you reading? no doubt the ones written by your libertarian friends.

[SolarCross]

I have heard from people claiming to be socialists of various stripes on internet forums (like this one) various ideas that the bourgoisie invented marriage, motherhood, fatherhood, normal reproductive sex in a conspiracy to exploit the workers. Apparently there are some of them even seem to actually believe it too. There was something about odd way you phrased your request for an expansion that suggested to me you might subscribe to some variant of that theory

Can you expand up on his argument, it makes no sense. When states and state like structure arose, there was no concept of parenting or family as we know it today.

Then when you said this:-

but it was a communal responsibility and humans didn't lived as "couples" with one sex partner making a clear distinction for a child, who is his/her father or mother.

it looks pretty clear you do subscribe that theory. So who trained you to believe such nonsense?

[fuser]

I have heard from people claiming to be socialists of various stripes on internet forums (like this one) various ideas that the bourgoisie invented marriage, motherhood, fatherhood, normal reproductive sex in a conspiracy to exploit the workers

So you have heard? Please quote any communist saying that concept of mothers fathers was a bourgeoisie conspiracy or its nothing but a pathetic strawman.

Sexual relations indeed changed in capitalistic society but the change is not what you are describing and I don't think you have any idea what it is but I won't go further in it as it is completely off topic.

it looks pretty clear you do subscribe that theory.

What theory? That humans didn't always had the concept of "married couples"?

So who trained you to believe such nonsense?

Anthropologist, historians, social scientists but who cares, right? I must take training from lolbertarians.

[SolarCross]

Okay fine I must have just run into some wackos then that don't represent mainstream socialism.

[Eran]

Eran - Are you a parent? I am and I can tell you my son's first instinct was not to obey my 'legitimate authority' but to do as he pleased.

I am a parent (at least twice over), and I agree that a child's first instinct isn't obedience. However, the instinct is there, competing (with varying degrees of strength) with independence.

[Rothbardian]

The article is more Islamophobic propaganda than anything else. Simply not true.

The idea that statism has its origins in poor parenting has some merit though. Stefan Molyneux talks about that quite a lot, his argument does make some sense.

Seems legit to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation

Can you expand up on his argument, it makes no sense. When states and state like structure arose, there was no concept of parenting or family as we know it today.

I don't believe that's his argument for the origin of statism, but it is a big reason we are still living with statism today. I would say the same goes for religion.

I am a parent (at least twice over), and I agree that a child's first instinct isn't obedience. However, the instinct is there, competing (with varying degrees of strength) with independence.

Also a parent. My son is now being placed in an accelerated learning program, his teachers every year absolutely adore the way he behaves and interacts with other kids, and he's great here at home. Just the other day he pulled my seat out for me as I sat down for dinner....he just does random stuff like that all the time without me ever having to tell him to.

I've never raised my voiced to him, or hit him, or made him feel threatened. I treat him with at least as much respect as I'd treat any adult. He's the only child I've raised, but in my own experience children don't go out of their way to behave or misbehave, what they do is they copy your behavior. So if you're aggressive and disrespectful, you can expect something similar in return.

My limited experience doesn't necessarily mean anything, there could be a number of other factors, but the research done on child psychology is pretty conclusive that raising a child in this way will achieve similar results.