[akritas]

Mr President Barack Obama

I would like to express my warmest felicitations as about your win in the Presidential elections. US foreign policy during the last years has been a challenge to foes and allies since it has lost its "persuasive credibility", arbitrariness and ability to see the obvious. It has led allies to question NATO´s scope, its utility and above all its ability to impose norms of international behavior based on rigid, uncompromised principles and values. Above all it lacks the ability to devise policies formulated outside the current militarily and power-imposed ethos.

You said that "It's been a long time coming, but tonight... change has come to America"

As Macedonian native the first that concerns me is the FYROM Name Dispute, a country north of Greece that wishes to be called Macedonia. In this dispute, Greece has made every single effort to meet the other side half way. It is obvious that the Greek political elite -despite the opposition of the majority of the Greek people- is ready to accept a name with a geographical definition that leaves no space for further misunderstanding. Greece has taken a step back in its rhetoric and policy with a view to enhancing stability in the region.

As Senator you have signed the Senate Resolution SR-300 which calls on the FYROM to stop its propaganda against Greece and to diligently negotiate a mutually acceptable name that would provide long and lasting peace in the Balkans.

Irredentist behavior towards Greece has been taught in FYROM classrooms and showed in the face of Greeks for nearly two decades now in every spot of our world. Greece has a legitimate argument when it says this sort of behavior threatens peace and the often tenuous security situation in the Balkans.

The Bush administrationʼs recognition of FYROM as ʽMacedoniaʼ in 2004 (2 days after the presidential election) has put the USA in the untenable position of effectively supporting FYROMʼs irredentism against the north of Greece, an American traditional ally. FYROMʼs irredentist aims were made clear by its recent rejection of Macedonian names that describe only territory within their borders – Northern Macedonia or Upper Macedonia – and by its Prime Ministerʼs recent appearance at a ceremony standing before a map showing northern Greece annexed.

Constructiveness may be a useful, at times, approach to international relations, yet it runs the risk of over-extending into relativism, thus making any claim, whether sustainable or not, appear attractive or noble. Eventually it dramatically blurs the dividing line between facts and beliefs, something American officials should comprehend. The semantics of Skopje rejecting the covertly implied by the Greek government solution enhances suspiciousness in Athens and eventually reveals the real motives behind Macedonianism, a state ideology built on Great Idea inspiration.

Mr President we like to see from you Presidential actions that based in your words as Senator and Presidential Candidate.

Greetings from the beautiful Greek Macedonia.

[SF edit: Moved to PC since this is not North America or Euro specific.]

[Lightman]

This conflict is the definition of petty. You managed to beat up the Cypriot conflict, the Georgian War, and the Kosovo situation. Congratulations.

Nobody in the United States cares what Macedonia is called.

[Mercutio]

Uh, well, you never know, he may need something to use to test his new paper shredder.

[noemon]

Nobody in the United States cares what Macedonia is called.

Your words are indeed the definition of petty. Since when are issues measured in the level of care of the American public?

Obama has taken this subject into consideration ever since he was a senator. And yes, since we witnessed a change of policy regarding this matter from the Bush administration during the Nato conference, while a total antithesis from Obama in practice not just in words while in the Senate during the exact same period, the people who do care about this subject hope that Obama will continue on his past footsteps and change the US attitude.

This in fact is the single one foreign relations element which Obama is totally and entirely antithetic to the Bush administration.


Read here for additional info as well as here for an illustrative parallel and this subject is much older than you think, and much more complicated, note the US airgram.

And do tell me...who do you think you are to mock just to mock one mans concerns for his place of origin, especially when you are completely ignorant of the politics of the area?

[akritas]

Nobody in the United States cares what Macedonia is called.

Are you sure ?
130 Members of Congress have so far co-sponsored Resolutions H.356 and S.300, expressing the sense of the Senate / House of Representatives that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) should stop the utilization of materials that violate provisions of the United Nations-brokered Interim Agreement between the FYROM and Greece regarding ‘‘hostile activities or propaganda’’ and should work with the United Nations and Greece to achieve longstanding United States and United Nations policy goals of finding a mutually-acceptable official name for the FYROM. One of them is the new President of the United States.

Bush administration since 2004 has proven to be the strongest supporter of FYROM in irredentist behaviour towards Greece. Senator Snowe Olympia Snowe in a recent letter urged Condoleza Rice to “encourage FYROM to stop violating the terms of the Interim Accord and to recognize her with the name that will be agreed by both countries”.

[Falx]

Since when are issues measured in the level of care of the American public?

Since those issues are sent to the president elect of the United States of America.

[noemon]

Since those issues are sent to the president elect of the United States of America.

That means, that the public cares, not the opposite.

If you are to make a case that the level of care of a particular public defines the choice of sides in an active dispute, do that. Because that is what Lightman has done, criticized the one side by a fallacious reduction ad absurdum that nobody cares in the American public, even if the President actually does and has the opposite opinion as shown.

[Negotiator]

I hope Obama closes Guantanamo. Immediately, then, on Jan 20. It is a disgrace for mankind that such a place can even exist for so long, and even worse, if its run by a country which considers itself civilized.

I hope Obama does NOT attack Iran. We had that excuse "Oh the guy has WDMs" before. Everyone who still believes this excuse is close to the maximum level of politicial ignorance.

I hope Obama manages to speed up the removeal of the US troops from Iraq, and to reduce the extreme amounts of money the US government has to pay for the military.

I do not believe that it is Obamas task to solve all the problems in the world. I personally hope Obama concentrates on the US economy, as well as health care etc. The rest of the world would benefit from a working US economy, too. Plus, as everyone here in europe seems to copy any damn trend in the US, I hope our local governments will behave more reasonably in their economics, too.

[Doomhammer]

That means, that the public cares, not the opposite.

One necessarily couldn't derive at that conclusion. There are many valid explanations to public opinion in decision making but, ultimately, leaders, the elite and interest groups usually define agendas. Perhaps I am being prejudiced but I hardly think Macedonia or FYROM would matter for the US public even if we were to assume that Americans were conscious of the issue (or could actually spot Macedonia on a map).

[Falx]

That means, that the public cares, not the opposite.

No it means Atrikas cares enough to send the letter, I doubt more than a third of the population of the US could point out Macedonia and Greece on a map of the world. For the upteenth time, get over your self, Greece is a second world country propped up by tourism and nostalgia, in the world stage it matters very, very little to anyone.

[noemon]

One necessarily couldn't derive at that conclusion. There are many valid explanations to public opinion in decision making but, ultimately, leaders, the elite and interest groups usually define agendas. Perhaps I am being prejudiced but I hardly think Macedonia or FYROM would matter for the US public even if we were to assume that Americans were conscious of the issue (or could actually spot Macedonia on a map).

Who said that i give a fuck whether the Amnericans care or not? This is not the issue here. And i doubt that you as a Turk, Falx as a Bulgarian and Lightman as an American-Jew have any idea on whether one should care or not. Obama cares enough to sponsor 2 resolutions while in the Senate. End of.

Since those issues are sent to the president elect of the United States of America.

It follows that the Americans care about what letter should be sent to their President, and that the weight this subject has in their conscience should be weight on whether a native Macedonian can express himself or not. Ofc the stupidity of such an argument is abundant. And this is the issue here. Since Lightmans' and consecutively Falxs' post.

Falx, like yourself probably the most prejudiced and failed e-personas on the internet regarding this subject, who do care much enough to participate in this matter every single time and whine in the Basement serially, in the light that you do have no single argument to add...the remaining thing to do is to render this subject "unimportant", despite the fact that it seems to be quite important for you.

And hence why, the only thing the both of you add, is whether the Americans care or not, and that should be measure on whether a Macedonian should express his concern on his native issues. [/smacks forehead]

No it means Atrikas cares enough to send the letter, I doubt more than a third of the population of the US could point out Macedonia and Greece on a map of the world. For the upteenth time, get over your self, Greece is a second world country propped up by tourism and nostalgia, in the world stage it matters very, very little to anyone.

Grow up. You ridicule yourself. If the only thing to add in a discussion is petty nationalism and your own complexes towards your neighbor, as usual and serially, go to stormfront.

Your presence in every thread is counter-productive, do get over yourself one day. Your insults have become quite the trademark for you. Failing to sustain your argument does not give you right to demean another nation which you know nothing about. It only sustains the low-level which you have acquired. You post demeaning comments regarding the Greeks serially and you serially fail despite the fact that noone has bothered you in here or any other time, i wonder for how long will you sustain this pettyness.

And a question for both of you, why do you care so much on whether a native Macedonian expresses himself in writing regarding his regional politics?

And to even say that any of you touched any part of his writing, you didnt. You didnt question one single thing he wrote. You shout and shout that nobody cares, yet you Doomhammer care enough to whine(in the basement for deletion or removal through leaps of logic), and you Falx to insult and demean.

You would want these(Macedonia related) threads to be deleted or non-existant yet you activelly sustain them.

But, yes indeed we do feel nostalgic, nostalgic for Dukakis losing the Presidential election for having the audacity[/sarcasm] to pursue the removal of the capital punishment.

[Falx]

Grow up. You ridicule yourself.

Noemon, again, get over yourself. Greece is a second wheel in the international order firmly behind Turkey. The length of your posts only demonstrates the inferiority of the country and your personal inferiority complex that anyone can think badly of Greece, or in my case not care at all apart from cluttering up the forum with useless posts, must be silenced.

Oh and as per usual I would like to remark that I didn't read your post after you pulled your usual tactic of "winning" a debate by exhaustion and incoherent arguments.

[noemon]

Noemon, again, get over yourself. Greece is a second wheel in the international order firmly behind Turkey. The length of your posts only demonstrates the inferiority of the country and your personal inferiority complex that anyone can think badly of Greece, or in my case not care at all apart from cluttering up the forum with useless posts, must be silenced.

The fact that you serially demean my nation, does not illustrate my inferiority complexes, even more so when i ignore your insults and merely illusatrtes why you insult.

But it illustrates your inferiority complexes.

Since you have proven yourself low and low again, you serially insult since you have nothing to lose in order to receive a reply, and make a case that i am complexed for responding to the insult and reduce me to your level. You tried this one the other time as well and failed, just imagine the pettyness.

This is pathetic. And i am very much aware of it, and that is why i do not address your insults, but only point out the fact of the lowliness and the seriality of your insultive behavior, .ie "people ignore him, the only thing he does is to inslt the Greeks", becasue that is exactly what you do. I dont care about your insults, and hence i do not address them, and hence i do not have the inferiority to actually address and vinidcate your opinion.

And since you continue, as ive told you before, i will not allow your pathetic attitude stand.

And do not have the misconception that i will fall inside the trap at some point.

You might as well get over it. And focus to stand back again, because continuing this serial attitude you shall render yourself an inadequate poster to the newbies even.

[Falx]

i will not allow your pathetic attitude stand.

Because:

your personal inferiority complex [demands] that anyone that think badly of Greece[...]must be silenced.

[noemon]

Me pointing out the fact that you are a serial hater towards the Greeks as a whole, does not illustrate my inferiority complexes, nor does it silence anybody as your case aptly illustrates. It is a mere statement of fact. I let your insulting comments stand, and do not touch them, to your apparent dismay.

And every time you will do it, i will point out this fact, as ive told you time and time again.

Your crusade to reduce other people to your level is another fact which reduces you even further -and which is like all the rest a failure as well- since you have lost all kind of decency and self-respect.

[Abood]

The letter definitely needs some proof-reading if you were to send it to the President of the United States.

[Doomhammer]

Who said that i give a fuck whether the Amnericans care or not?

I don't care that you don't care about the Americans not caring about an issue only a fraction of the world's population actually cares about. I found your reasoning to be incorrect and I pointed it out to you and explained why it is not feasible to think of the Macedonia Naming Dispute as important for Americans. What I think about the topic is inconsequential.

In general, popular opinion usually influences decision making in times or war or other emergencies. In very pluralistic democracies the public can sometimes influence leaders during election times but these would only reflect issues vital to the nation's and society's interests. Important matters are dictated solely by academics, interest groups and the state elite (civilian and military bureaucracy, and politicians). Foreign policy issues that are not related to the interests of a country (vital or not), are usually dictated by diplomats or the foreign ministry, and these usually don't lead to clear policy decisions.

, yet you Doomhammer care enough to whine(in the basement for deletion or removal through leaps of logic)

I asked for it's "deportation" because:

i) It does not belong in the North America forum.
ii) It is a new chain in the series of the dispute.
iii) There is nothing in it that is debate material, which defeats the purpose of having threads in the on-topic forums. If this thread was about the issue itself or maybe even something like "Public Agenda Setting and the Macedonian Naming Dispute", then there wouldn't be any problems.
iv) I have a vendetta against you. Actually no. Not true...
v) ...regardless, I foresaw that there would be a lot of flaming in this thread and once again I stand corrected.

If you don't agree, then take it to the Big Man.

You would want these(Macedonia related) threads to be deleted or non-existant yet you activelly sustain them.

These threads are loads of fun.

The letter definitely needs some proof-reading if you were to send it to the President of the United States.

Yeah. I heard that Harvard boys are real Grammar-Nazis.

[noemon]

I don't care that you don't care about the Americans not caring about an issue only a fraction of the world's population actually cares about. I found your reasoning to be incorrect and I pointed it out to you and explained why it is not feasible to think of the Macedonia Naming Dispute as important for Americans.

You did not find anything incorrect, at best you misunderstood my line perhaps because you misunderstood Falx's line that i quoted. Your line though was parroting the same crap argument as Lightman and Falx so.... An argument thas was alredy shown to be incorrect and pretty much rediculous.

i) It does not belong in the North America forum.
ii) It is a new chain in the series of the dispute.
iii) There is nothing in it that is debate material, which defeats the purpose of having threads in the on-topic forums. If this thread was about the issue itself or maybe even something like "Public Agenda Setting and the Macedonian Naming Dispute", then there wouldn't be any problems.
iv) I have a vendetta against you. Actually no. Not true...
v) ...regardless, I foresaw that there would be a lot of flaming in this thread and once again I stand corrected.

If you don't agree, then take it to the Big Man.

I do not care where this thread is, wherever it is, it is the same thing. And am not the one who posted it anyway, so quite literally i do not give a crap.

I am merely pointing out the fact that every time a Macedonia thread appears you whine in the Basement. And you actually do every single time for whatever "reason" you can come up with.

[Doomhammer]

You did not find anything incorrect, at best you misunderstood my line perhaps because you misunderstood Falx's line that i quoted.

I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility. I think we both agree that public opinion is largely irrelevant and inconsequential. Perhaps the response I objected to would make sense for other more general issues, although the text also gives the impression that people are conscious about the trivial things (for them) their leaders face.

Since when are issues measured in the level of care of the American public?

Since those issues are sent to the president elect of the United States of America.

That means, that the public cares, not the opposite.

I do not care where this thread is

We know. You would be alright with "anywhere/everywhere". On a more serious note, I think you'll appreciate that there is a reason why this forum is divided under so many different headings. There has to be coherence and some degree of uniformity in sub-forums so as to foster more efficient browsing and more efficient management by the forum hierarchy. Opening up a thread about Macedonia is not appropriate in the North America forum and letters to president-elects and similar texts addressing politicians would be more appropriate in this current sub-forum.

And you actually do every single time for whatever "reason" you can come up with.

I am not trying to suppress your agenda. I am merely trying to help people channel it in the correct place.

[noemon]

We know. You would be alright with "anywhere/everywhere". On a more serious note, I think you'll appreciate that there is a reason why this forum is divided under so many different headings. There has to be coherence and some degree of uniformity in sub-forums so as to foster more efficient browsing and more efficient management by the forum hierarchy. Opening up a thread about Macedonia is not appropriate in the North America forum and letters to president-elects and similar texts addressing politicians would be more appropriate in this current sub-forum.

False, you explicitly said that this thread will degenerate against "the evil Fyromians", sarcastically, and alluded that reducing it would be appropriate, deleting it would not be a problem either but since you knew there was no provision for that, you were uable to make the request that you 've made time and time again. Ofc the thread did degenerate but not according to your prediction but exactly due to the antithetic side.

I am not trying to suppress your agenda. I am merely trying to help people channel it in the correct place.

I do not have an agenda, i did not post this thread, nor do i care where it is. You do have an agenda though because your basement whining and requests for deletion are serial every single time. This has nothing to do with you channeling threads to the correct places. You might as well pretend to, but we know each other better than this, for good or for bad. The fact that the whining is serial and always includes the terms: "please delete it" or "please reduce it to Gorkiy"..is abundant and clear enough.