[Tainari88]

The reality is simply that DNA of ethnic groups is not 'observable' without blood analysis.

This is true. It is also true that in terms of commercially available blood analysis like the 23 and me stuff? It could be wildly inaccurate as well. Simply because there needs to be a lot more work on breaking down the purpose of each tiny protein that codes or gives instructions to genetic markers.

What is undisputed always is that variation is the foundation of all life on Earth. It is a survival mechanism for making sure a species has options to combat the natural selection process that happens in nature.

You have a group of people who live in a certain geographic environment. For a very long time. In order to make sure they have the best survival rate within that physical environment you need to have a variation of genes. But genes that also respond and or interact with the external world. Over time only the group survives and adapts, individuals within that group are going to be unable to evolve as single individuals. The group is critical for species survival.

All monoculture in nature is defective as a survival mechanism. That is why cloned food products or cloned domestic animals when faced with a spontaneously occurring disease winds up having devastating effects. Total wipe out or crop failure.

You can take the Cavendish banana story for example.

[late]

That actually is not true.

You're trying to rewrite science again...


Have you ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect?

[Rich]

Perhaps more apropos, it reminds me of what goebbles termed the 'big lie'. 'The great masses of the people will more easily believe a big lie than a small one'. This is because the masses have a difficult time believing that anyone would be so brazen that they would not merely tell a lie, they would tell a lie so radical that it becomes the polar opposite of the truth.

It comes from Hitler not Goebbels. Most people seem to have heard of Hitler's big lie but few seem to bother to examine the context. That Hitler is introducing his own big lie.

But it remained for the Jews, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, and their fighting comrades, the Marxists, to impute responsibility for the downfall precisely to the man who alone had shown a superhuman will and energy in his effort to prevent the catastrophe which he had foreseen and to save the nation from that hour of complete overthrow and shame. By placing responsibility for the loss of the world war on the shoulders of Ludendorff they took away the weapon of moral right from the only adversary dangerous enough to be likely to succeed in bringing the betrayers of the Fatherland to Justice.

All this was inspired by the principle – which is quite true within itself – that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.

It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying.

First the sheer irony of this piece. The idea that I' m going to be lectured on Judo Bolshevism by Erich sealed train Ludendorff or anyone defending sealed train Ludendorff. but his idea that (presumably) German jew's are responsible for bringing down Ludendorff is a flat out lie. Its utter drivel. Sure people of Jewish descent were massively over represented in Marxist leadership and among the left Liberal media, but so what? People of Jewish descent were massively over represented in the top levels of most spheres of intellectual life. (So called) Jews were massively over represented amongst top chess players and physics. Does that mean international Chess and modern physics are evil plots against humanity or the Aryan races? Some of what the Nazis said was just utter nonsense, utter drivel.

[late]

It comes from Hitler not Goebbels. Most people seem to have heard of Hitler's big lie but few seem to bother to examine the context. That Hitler is introducing his own big lie.


First the sheer irony of this piece. The idea that I' m going to be lectured on Judo Bolshevism by Erich sealed train Ludendorff or anyone defending sealed train Ludendorff. but his idea that (presumably) German jew's are responsible for bringing down Ludendorff is a flat out lie. Its utter drivel. Sure people of Jewish descent were massively over represented in Marxist leadership and among the left Liberal media, but so what? People of Jewish descent were massively over represented in the top levels of most spheres of intellectual life. (So called) Jews were massively over represented amongst top chess players and physics. Does that mean international Chess and modern physics are evil plots against humanity or the Aryan races? Some of what the Nazis said was just utter nonsense, utter drivel.

I've been discussing politics on the internet for about 30 years, never seen anyone dumb enough to try and bring Nazi BS back to life.

[Tainari88]

@Rich quoted and put this in:

(So called) Jews were massively over represented amongst top chess players and physics. Does that mean international Chess and modern physics are evil plots against humanity or the Aryan races? Some of what the Nazis said was just utter nonsense, utter drivel.

Hmm, not to the faithful to Nazi ideals.

Do not say they believe in utter drivel.

Even though I have asked @FiveofSwords of real physical evidence of White Genocide happening in the part of the USA he lives in. He never brings it out.

The smart thing to do is say that the White Genocide story has to be in the future. Because there are not enough white babies born to decent white families. I solved his dilemma. Just find a woman who can tolerate his bullshit and whining and loves his inaccurate takes on WWII themes, and pop out a bunch of kids. Save the White Race. After they both take a blood analysis of the purity of genes and blood compatibility.

Pop out the kids. And he goes and lives in an all-white segregated community with like-minded believers and waits for their opportunity to seize power for the unity of the White Race. Problem solved.

The other alternative is to do what? What is the plan?

[Rich]

I've been discussing politics on the internet for about 30 years, never seen anyone dumb enough to try and bring Nazi BS back to life.

in the old days it was far leftists and devout Christians that were into banning things right and left and centre. The Soviet Union turned banning ideas into a mass industry. I guess it was good for keeping people on their toes. What was the party line last week, could get you sent to Siberia next week. And the line that was denounced last week could become the new party line next week. And yes @Potemkin I did pick up "your giddy with success" Stalin reference in the other thread.

But it strikes me that banning any idea we didn't like really took off in the mainstream after 9/11. I didn't believe that 9/11 was an inside job, but why we can't we talk about it. This was a key stage in my total alienation from the establishment. I want to listen to extremists. I want extremists to be given a platform. I actually want their voices to be amplified, because although the extremists may only be a small even insignificant minority, they normally represent ideas that have a much wider currency in a more diluted, less thought out and coherent way. Personally I'd love it if we could get some real ISIS or Al Qaeda members on the forum, but of course the Liberal's immediate response would not just be to close down the individual but get the whole forum shut down.

[Wellsy]

So the crux is that nationalism based on some racial identity is benign and not about some hierarchal evaluation but just some sort of pride in an aspect that one does not choose while those who coalesce around beliefs and values are intolerant and antagonistic because they choose such views and naturally claim a superior status to their values than another opposing values.
But something that sticks out to me is that while our biology itself is not chosen, just as much of our identity is one already socially determined, there is a choice in the extent to one chooses to valorize aspects of ones socially given identity. Is it not a choice to be so nationalistic on the basis of race? And how is that essentially benign where we see racial antagonism. The point seems to be the ability to valorize without denigrating in some sort of postmodern we just like this but its no better as we can’t compare values. But that is yet to be shown that valuing one thing is merely indifference to others. Does it lead to arguments about what undermines ones group domestically and the need for defend against another. Or what is one arguing for than just individual feelings.

Because why is race significant if not for the need to distinguish some as belonging to one part of society as in the colonies. To designate roles in society and relations of power.
Ideologies like communism do have their antagonists but one has to argue as a capitalist then. Not just that one has opposition. Liberalisk itself opposes nonliberalism. To value something is to exclude others and defend against. Bot indifferent tolerance.

I’m at least surprised by even the soft emphasis on race rather than a more obscured take common to modern far right intellectuals and parties.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_racism
Where culture is used as a proxy for race.
I wonder what one makes of multiculturalism and whether one inverts the emphasis on having pride in racial identity but there is an asserted inconsistency when it comes to pride in being white and white people are denied the same avenue to taking pride. Although one might emphasize how white and black are not ethnic identities even and are inherently based in colonial systems when relying on slave labor to build up infrastructure and economy.

[FiveofSwords]

And most people would be wrong.

Paleoanthropologists and geneticists point to Africa as the origin of our species.

Well no, life began in the oceans before the continents existed.

[ingliz]

@FiveofSwords

How is that relevant?

[Rich]

I've been discussing politics on the internet for about 30 years, never seen anyone dumb enough to try and bring Nazi BS back to life.

Yes and before 2022, I never thought I would see such extreme hypocrisy towards Nazism by Liberals again.

The truth is the liberals loved the Nazis. The Liberals loved the Nazis when they were fighting on the Eastern Front after the 1918 armistice, allowing the Baltic countries to keep their independence. The Liberals loved the Nazis when they eliminated Rosa Luxembourg and Karl Libernecht, leaving the German far left without their most capable leaders. The Liberals loved the Nazis when they put an end to the Bavarian Soviet Republic.

From 2014 we saw the emergence of a real Nazi movement again in Ukraine. The Azov formation and other right wing groups were the real deal Nazis, people genuinely committed to militarism. They weren't just some internet blow hards. The Neo Nazi military formations were absolutely pivotal in Ukraine's successes both in 2014-15 and 2022. And after the no where near full scale invasion of February 2022, the Liberals tried to gas light us into believing that they weren't real Nazis.

Wagner PMC were not real Nazis. They couldn't be just for the simple reasons that Russia waa too authoritarian. The Nazis were only able to become what they became, because of the semi anarchic conditions of central and Eastern Europe after the armistice and the semi anarchic conditions of much of the Weimar Republic. Similarly it was the semi anarchic conditions of Ukraine after the Donbas uprising in 2014 that allowed a new Nazi movement to arise. A serious Nazi movement that wasn't just a joke, just a parody of the original.

[Tainari88]

You're trying to rewrite science again...


Have you ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect?

He has been told that due to his 'race,' he is ahead of the curve already from all the other lower-intelligence people who are not about unifying the race.

He is trying to find a forum on the internet that tolerates his ideology without violating forum rules about spreading hate speech or hate crime propaganda.

Again, it is back to his claim that my only reason for existence is to hate white people. I am White Genocide and White Genocide is happening in his neck of the woods. But he can't bring proof.

This means he is using a political tactic to 'shake things up' on the internet that has attacked his group's freedom of speech, to assemble, and to be against the democratic narrative that is innate to the US Constitution. He needs to help pivot the talking points to something that might make people join his group with the banner of if you are white you need to drop the multicultural stuff from the liberals and join under race as one.

That it is not working is why he thinks White people are the most brainwashed people on Earth. He really has a hard time accepting that white is a fictional way of dealing with historically specific ethnicities like Irish, Huguenots, Amish, Bavarians, Flemish, Scottish, Welsh, Basque, Norman, etc. too complex. Stick to something easy to rally around and make happen.

It is doomed to fail because it is unrealistic. But he will find out. Meanwhile, he can save his white race again by having tons of kids. A lot. To make sure he contributes to a wide net in the genetic material pool and saves himself the fear of being wiped out by all these brown people, yellow people, black people, red people, color-coded shit people.

See? Easily explained.

In the process of raising kids he is going to realize how much work it takes to raise them. A lot of money, time and community support from like-minded people in his own ideological group. If they go to war with the rest of the world the possibility of them coming out victorious is nearly zero. Most of the entire planet is not white. And never will be. If they stay in their own land in some compound in Idaho, etc. and raise his kids according to his beliefs? He secures a future for his ideology. The percentages do not look good for his group though. The math says at least one out of ten of his kids will either be bisexual or gay. That one or more of his kids will marry someone outside of their race or ethnic group. And that if they stay in the USA will wind up interacting with people from different races. They might decide to rebel against Dad and disappoint him. Raising kids is risky. Some obey the patriarch and others do not. So the best they can do is try to take over the USA and maybe expel or deport or slaughter almost half of the USA to purify it. By that time? China or some other country would have stepped into the power vacuum caused by too many internal or external wars by the US...and his group would become the kings of nowhere. Unfortunately, that is also a real option if for some weird reason, his group is successful in seizing power in the US.

[FiveofSwords]

So the crux is that nationalism based on some racial identity is benign and not about some hierarchal evaluation but just some sort of pride in an aspect that one does not choose while those who coalesce around beliefs and values are intolerant and antagonistic because they choose such views and naturally claim a superior status to their values than another opposing values.
But something that sticks out to me is that while our biology itself is not chosen, just as much of our identity is one already socially determined, there is a choice in the extent to one chooses to valorize aspects of ones socially given identity. Is it not a choice to be so nationalistic on the basis of race? And how os that essentially benign where we see racial antagonism. Because why is race significant if not for the need to distinguish some as belonging to one part of society as in the colonies. To designate roles in society and relations of power.
Ideologies like communism do have their antagonists but one has to argue as a capitalist then. Not just that one has opposition.

I’m at least surprised by even the soft emphasis on race rather than a more obscured take common to modern far right intellectuals and parties.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_racism
Where culture is used as a proxy for race.
I wonder what one makes of multiculturalism and whether one inverts the emphasis on having pride in racial identity but there is an asserted inconsistency when it comes to pride in being white and white people are denied the same avenue to taking pride. Although one might emphasize how white and black are not ethnic identities even and are inherently based in colonial systems when relying on slave labor to build up infrastructure and economy.

Having loyalty to your race is just an innate biological instinct and I think thay only the most psychotic people lack it. It isn't even about 'pride' or anything it is just an innate bond a person feels with members of their own race. For example, a non psychotic person feels a bond with their mother and this is simply on the basis of genetic similarity. On the other hand, sane people do not feel some innate bond with a potato that they eat and it is because the genetics are so different...not because you feel 'pride' in being human or 'superior' to a potato...those concepts don't even exist or seem relevant to a normal person just eating a potato. Altruism is linked to genetic similarity in all life forms (not merely humans) because it is beneficial for survival. You yourself would not need to reproduce if some life form close to you reproduces...the genes would still survive.

So this is all just an unchosen biological fact more than it is some choice. And it is only framed as a choice, and demonized, for people of European ancestry.

[FiveofSwords]

@FiveofSwords

How is that relevant?

Uh...how is it not? You arbitrarily want to speak of the ancestors of Taylor swift 200k years ago. Why not her ancestors 3.5 billion years ago? What's the difference?

[Wellsy]

Having loyalty to your race is just an innate biological instinct and I think thay only the most psychotic people lack it. It isn't even about 'pride' or anything it is just an innate bond a person feels with members of their own race. For example, a non psychotic person feels a bond with their mother and this is simply on the basis of genetic similarity. On the other hand, sane people do not feel some innate bond with a potato that they eat and it is because the genetics are so different...not because you feel 'pride' in being human or 'superior' to a potato...those concepts don't even exist or seem relevant to a normal person just eating a potato. Altruism is linked to genetic similarity in all life forms (not merely humans) because it is beneficial for survival. You yourself would not need to reproduce if some life form close to you reproduces...the genes would still survive.

So this is all just an unchosen biological fact more than it is some choice. And it is only framed as a choice, and demonized, for people of European ancestry.

Loyalty to race being some innate fact makes it sound natural but its doing some heavy lifting here. There are innate reflexes in babies but how does one contend some notion of loyalty to race as distinct from just a cultural affinity where one values things one is raised to value.

You’re framing it like a baby’s bond to their mother. These are strong assertions that aren’t self evident.It asserts an analogy without really fleshing out how they are the same. This would be more interesting with greater detail than vagueness.

[Tainari88]

Having loyalty to your race is just an innate biological instinct and I think thay only the most psychotic people lack it. It isn't even about 'pride' or anything it is just an innate bond a person feels with members of their own race. For example, a non psychotic person feels a bond with their mother and this is simply on the basis of genetic similarity. On the other hand, sane people do not feel some innate bond with a potato that they eat and it is because the genetics are so different...not because you feel 'pride' in being human or 'superior' to a potato...those concepts don't even exist or seem relevant to a normal person just eating a potato. Altruism is linked to genetic similarity in all life forms (not merely humans) because it is beneficial for survival. You yourself would not need to reproduce if some life form close to you reproduces...the genes would still survive.

So this is all just an unchosen biological fact more than it is some choice. And it is only framed as a choice, and demonized, for people of European ancestry.

Unfortunately that utopian world you paint here to Wellsy Sword? Is false.

In the sense that you put two twins born to the same mother and father and who share genetics completely? Will and do fight, disagree and disappoint each other.

Even genetic blood families can and do kill each other and disagree violently. The race unifying is not enough for even families of the same blood. Look at the Mormon church. They came from the same religious affiliation leader, were mostly of European origins and for a long time never accepted Black members. But they had blood feuds and vendettas that were gory and ugly.

Why? If Race is the unifying altruistic factor in human behavior?

That European are denied by other races self acceptance and peace and the ability to unite? Is also false. There are wars between people of the same race all over the world. In Africa, Asia, the Americas, Oceania, Europe.

So that is false. Do you have anything better than that?

[Tainari88]

Loyalty to race being some innate fact makes it sound natural but its doing some heavy lifting here. There are innate reflexes in babies but how does one contend some notion of loyalty to race as distinct from just a cultural affinity where one values things one is raised to value.

You’re framing it like a baby’s bond to their mother. These are strong assertions that aren’t self evident.It asserts an analogy without really fleshing out how they are the same. This would be more interesting with greater detail than vagueness.

Vagueness is what the the ideology is about. Unify as one because our race is under attack. By who and by what means? If he would say specifics then you might have a valid argument.

But he avoids specifics. What he likes to do is say that his race is under attack because?

They are not upfront and truthful. That is very interesting. They have to not be open because what they truly believe is not very appealing to most people who think they need to get along with a lot of other ethnic groups. religious groups, etc and find having to keep purity in thought and action in terms of race? Tiring and unnecessary. Got to make it natural. Like a mother with her infant.

It obviously is not natural. For many reasons. Mainly because there is no specific traits he is talking about as white. White how? Speaking German? Polish? Russian? Welsh? Being raised Roman Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Agnostic? he has to define it in groups. Once he does that it gets hard to unify.

It is hard. Convincing people in vague terms.

[FiveofSwords]

It comes from Hitler not Goebbels. Most people seem to have heard of Hitler's big lie but few seem to bother to examine the context. That Hitler is introducing his own big lie.


First the sheer irony of this piece. The idea that I' m going to be lectured on Judo Bolshevism by Erich sealed train Ludendorff or anyone defending sealed train Ludendorff. but his idea that (presumably) German jew's are responsible for bringing down Ludendorff is a flat out lie. Its utter drivel. Sure people of Jewish descent were massively over represented in Marxist leadership and among the left Liberal media, but so what? People of Jewish descent were massively over represented in the top levels of most spheres of intellectual life. (So called) Jews were massively over represented amongst top chess players and physics. Does that mean international Chess and modern physics are evil plots against humanity or the Aryan races? Some of what the Nazis said was just utter nonsense, utter drivel.

Well believe it or not, many of the national socialists were not idiots and they could respond to your question quite easily. In fact Hitler went into a great deal of depth about why he opposed the jews and it actually is not even fundamentally because the bolsheviks were disproportionately jewish. Anyway I don't think jews are even disproportionate in physics...but it's irrelevant to the general issue

[Tainari88]

@ingliz notice how @FiveofSwords is getting defensive and saying to others here that his ideological group is not composed of idiots? That they have valid points.

Again, he is avoiding the points.

Again, that makes him not a strong debater.

I think he needs to break out the kleenex again.

Self flagellation is a serious problem there.

Here are some Filipinos who want to experience the suffering of Christ on the Cross. Being persecuted by the world.

Sword wants to be persecuted by unknown and unnamed people out to get him. On the internet and in the real world. But he needs to step out of the vagueness stuff. it is not working.

[ingliz]

Why not her ancestors 3.5 billion years ago?

Cyanobacteria are not human.

[FiveofSwords]

Loyalty to race being some innate fact makes it sound natural but its doing some heavy lifting here. There are innate reflexes in babies but how does one contend some notion of loyalty to race as distinct from just a cultural affinity where one values things one is raised to value.

You’re framing it like a baby’s bond to their mother. These are strong assertions that aren’t self evident.It asserts an analogy without really fleshing out how they are the same. This would be more interesting with greater detail than vagueness.

Kin selection simply is a universal law among life forms on earth. In fact, this is a central theme among Richard Dawkins' book 'the selfish gene'. And the reason kin selection is so prevalent is simply because it is the ideal survival strategy. People have literally simulated different altruism strategies in computers using game theory and the one they label 'ethnocentrism' scores the best. https://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/16/3/7.html

Naturally, biological scientists are happy to admit such things for life in general but they tend to become timid and whisper when anyone suggests what this implies for humans. Because of course it means out politicians are all wrong: diversity is absolutely not our 'greatest strength'. This has also been confirmed by the Putnam study https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10. ... 07.00176.x ...but because this sort of research contradicts assumptions made by current policies in the western world, people are terrified of pursuing such a line of reasoning because they will trash their career https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Watson and even could wind up in prison https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-herit ... ldren.html . The very idea that diversity may have some downside is considered hateful and even indicative of terroristic violence in most western countries. https://www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/updated ... ed-through ...this person was recently thrown in prison for distribution of stickers critical of mass immigration into the uk, despite the court admitting that none of what he did was technically illegal and none of the content on the stickers was even false.

Well...this is how draconian a state has to be when it tries to force people to behave in a manner contrary to their innate nature.

Anyway, culture does not come from a vacuum and it is not completely arbitrary. People forged for many centuries in one environment are going to have a different psychology and way of life to people forged in an entirely different environment. Thus Carl jung suggested to Sigmund Freud that his version of psychoanalysis was really only appropriate for jews, while jungs was more appropriate for aryans. https://jewishcurrents.org/carl-jung-an ... i-semitism ...if you approach this whole subject eith a more open mind I think it should be clear that much about our culture and our psyche exists somehow in our blood and is informed by our ancestry and natural history. The evidence for this is overwhelming and is experienced by pretty much everyone in their personal life experience consciously or unconsciously. Humans simply are not born as perfect blank slates as 18th century liberal political philosophy would insist...but rather we are all born with some propensity one way or another that comes from our blood memory...just like sea turtles know how to run to the sea immediately after they hatch. This is a nuanced and complex subject since of course there does exist a surprising amount of malleability...which we can especially see in the current era where an impossible % of the young identify as LGBT...but it still cannot be that you can simply imprint some culture on any human equally easy regardless of their race. The genetic influence over behavior and values was established as far back as Francis galton's twin studies.