[QatzelOk]

...In his book Life and Fate, Vasily Grossman notes that, when Stalin and Hitler were in power, “one of the most astonishing human traits that came to light at this time was obedience”.

The instinct to obey, he observed, was stronger than the instinct to survive.

Acting alone, seeing ourselves as consumers, fixating on MCB and mind-numbing trivia, even as systemic environmental collapse looms: these are forms of obedience. We would rather face civilisational death than the social embarrassment caused by raising awkward subjects, and the political trouble involved in resisting powerful forces. The obedience reflex is our greatest flaw, the kink in the human brain that threatens our lives...

I posted this in another thread about another subject, but then realized that this interesting quote says a lot about the civilization predicament. See, the history of civilizations is all about taming humans so that they will be easy to harness to make money for an elite.

***

It's perfectly normal for a young child to be obedient to a parent or guardian. But when adults learn to succeed through obedience, it marks the end of their very humanity. They go into auto-pilot, and learn to behave the way pets and farm animals do - with a need for the approval of the farmer or master. "My master smiled at me! I must be a good dog!"

Over time, the more *survival oriented* members of societies have been killed off in unjust wars (where they rise to the occasion), and political repressions, and only the most obedient humans have been allowed to thrive, and to have children. This is the same technique that turned wolves into house dogs, or turned running bison into stagnant cows.

Over time, this has lead to a "cattle-i-zation" of the human race. Humans today are so obedient that they have empowered psychopaths to the point of the encroaching extinction of our species and many others. And they are so obedient that they will put their own lives at risk in order to please their perceived masters to whom they are obedient. (Monbiot mentions Hitler and Stalin because he's publishing in a mainstream newspaper, but he could have mentionned how eagerly Europeans march off to their own deaths in wars ever few generations).

"It's for your health."

***

If you have a need to fear something, maybe you should fear the great numbers of human cattle out there, whose actions and votes and manipulation... will ensure that we are all reduced to human pets, or human meat sources. Or worse.

Too many cattle means that those who still retain survival instincts... will suffer the same fate, and in a much more bitter state of mind - brought down by the pet-hood of most people around them.

Obedient humans may humanity's worse problem.

[Negotiator]

Oooooh ... right.

If you live in nazi germany and you dont protest against the government, you do that because of "obedience".

Not because of, oh I dont know, the socalled "concentration camps". Where they put everyone who too openly opposed their ideology.

[Unthinking Majority]

If you aren't obedient the mobs come to cancel you for wrongspeak and then your employer fires you for not taking their medicine.

And some of the obedient believe their dear leader so much they think an election was stolen from them with no evidence.

This isn't anything new though. People spent millennia following everything their priests and bible said, and the heretics were shamed and some burnt at the stake. Some are still stoned to death.

[QatzelOk]

Oooooh ... right.

If you live in nazi germany and you dont protest against the government, you do that because of "obedience".

Not because of, oh I dont know, the socalled "concentration camps". Where they put everyone who too openly opposed their ideology.

The British really mastered concentration camp technology during the Boer Wars.


Dutch child starving to death in Concentration Camp during Second Boer War
"I was just following orders" said the guards.

Imagine a human being who is willing to lock up thousands of other humans who eventually starve to death in their isolation and targeted hatred against them. "Let's lock up a bunch of other humans and concentrate on really hating them!"

What kind of dog is obedient enough to do this to other dogs? What kind of turtle is obedient enough to do this to other turtles? What kind of whale is obedient enough to do this to other whales?

Answer: Neither pets nor naturally-wild animals... will torture thousands of members of their own species this way. Though pet dogs can be trained to lead other species to their slaughter.

1. Did the social changes of technology bring us to this sick state of morbid dog-hood?

2. Or has the behaviorism of civilization been responsible for this?

3. Or is it a combination of both (ie. technology leading to behaviorism)?

(Please answer this question quickly as we may be running out of time)

[Robert Urbanek]

Some people who question authority don't care what answer they get. They are going to break the rules anyway.

[Rancid]

Humans today are so obedient that they have empowered psychopaths to the point of the encroaching extinction of our species and many others.

You speak of this as though it is something new. This fact has been true since our pre-human ancestors decided (or were forced to) to come down from the trees in the African Rift valley.

[Godstud]

[QatzelOk]

You speak of this as though it is something new. This fact has been true since our pre-human ancestors decided (or were forced to) to come down from the trees in the African Rift valley.

You have not demonstrated that obedience levels were the same then as they are now.

In fact, what you have done is to attempt to drown out new ideas with a verbal thought-killer: "Same old, same old."

When what is true is that humanity has been slowly taming itself for 10,000 years, in much the same way that humans tamed wolves into becoming survival-ignorant dogs.

An obedient dog would write: "Dogs have been tamely chasing sticks and responded to treats for millions of years." Of course, this would be a lie, but lies like this one are part of doggy obedience.

Simple disobedience=AliceCooper

This song makes disobedience sound really scary and dangerous. Like propaganda is supposed to do - commercial media (the institution) is a huge part of what made us so tame and divorced from our survival instincts.

[Godstud]

Disobedience isn't scary, but it is always risky. You're going to piss someone off. You also are going against what is thought of as "safe". Sometimes, though, this is the only way to discover new things.

[Rancid]

You have not demonstrated that obedience levels were the same then as they are now.

Can you prove that they are different between then and now?

What metrics are you using to measure this?

[QatzelOk]

Can you prove that they are different between then and now?

What metrics are you using to measure this?

1. I have studied First Nations history, and it compares favorably to European cultures in terms of being "less obedient."

Example: Under the vote system in First Nations, if three out of ten people vote AGAINST going to war, they don't have to go.

In Europe, the modern way was to force everyone to "go along" with the majority vote. This creates a deep social obedience.

2. Likewise, traffic lights, stop signs, and all the other additional laws that we need to OBEY... have only increased over time and with each new technology.

3. LIkewise, the way our school system is geared up to produce the same type of human by forcing young kids to be obedient and passive....

4. LIkewise, mass media consumption has risen every generation for the last 100 years....

5. Likewise, the suburban destruction of "the community" took away most people's ability to develop a "community spirit" in order to combat the orders of a corrupt elite....

► Show Spoiler

You are asking for "metrics" because philosophy and social discussions are pretty well dead in rich Western nations. Without philosophy or a well-developed social network... we are all slaves (ultra-obedient). And that has been the unstated plan of every civilization all along.

[QatzelOk]

United we stand - divided we serve others without any concern for our own well-being


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_unions_in_the_United_States

We are told - on commercial media - that having unions is bad, that the job-creators prefer a "low organization" environment. And this is what we are providing them, more and more. Our only desire is to serve.

[QatzelOk]

What news is suppressed? That the USA is worse than dead broke. That the people were poisoned, apparently on-purpose. That the spectral “Joe Biden” sold out our country. That the war we started in Ukraine, on purpose, for no good reason, is about to be lost, and with it our standing around world...

Being passive cattle means that the farmers that own you (the 1%) can do whatever they like to you and to the world around you.

The 1% like this power that they have, and they maintain our obedience partially through a very censored media apparatus.

The information above that James Kunstler reveals is extremely important, and yet cattle are just eating grass and staring at the ground.... (consuming products and watching commercial entertainment).

[ingliz]

@QatzelOk

"Capitalism is killing the planet"

For most people - You included, I expect - if they were left without the many modern conveniences afforded by capitalism, conveniences so ubiquitous that we now take them for granted, the planet would be killing them.

A famous example:

Alone in the wild - Ed Wardle (2009)

You see a man start to starve and break down both physically and mentally.

UK's C4 got into serious trouble for it.

[QatzelOk]

For most people - You included, I expect - if they were left without the many modern conveniences afforded by capitalism, conveniences so ubiquitous that we now take them for granted, the planet would be killing them...

Yes, humans are now so addicted to technology that they have no choice but to commit suicide through ecosystem collapse.

I just like to pretend that we could change and survive, but you're probably right about they're being no hope for our species.

Like dogs, pigs, cows or chickens, all we can do is multiply until we die of environmental degradation.... it seems.

Which is why I am not a Realist when it comes to domestic policy.

[Rancid]

@QatzelOk, perhaps we need to start teaching philosophy in elementary schools.

[Negotiator]

The comforts of modern society come from technology, not from capitalism.

[Godstud]

@Negotiator It comes from both technology and Capitalism. Capitalism spurs innovation.

Lesson 4: How Incentives Affect Innovation
Under capitalism, innovation has become one of the key strategies firms adopt in order to survive in the competitive environment of the market. The result is that innovative activity in capitalist economies is much more pervasive and innovations spread more quickly than in non-market economies.
https://www.fte.org/teachers/teacher-re ... 0economies.

[Rancid]

@Negotiator It comes from both technology and Capitalism. Capitalism spurs innovation.

Lesson 4: How Incentives Affect Innovation
Under capitalism, innovation has become one of the key strategies firms adopt in order to survive in the competitive environment of the market. The result is that innovative activity in capitalist economies is much more pervasive and innovations spread more quickly than in non-market economies.
https://www.fte.org/teachers/teacher-re ... 0economies.

Indeed.

Technology is when you take science and capitalism and put them together. You need both.

In a sense capitalism is the operator that acts on science to turn it into technology. The current neoliberalist culture doesn't value science, but it values technology because of it's economic output.

What the fuck.... why do I sound like a commie?

[JohnRawls]

You speak of this as though it is something new. This fact has been true since our pre-human ancestors decided (or were forced to) to come down from the trees in the African Rift valley.

I will actually argue that this is necessary. A lot of the high level decisions are not good for all/bad for all. If you make a choice then it will hurt one group and make it better for the other. This is not related to capitalism or liberal democracy or anything really, just hierarchy. Liberal democracy created a more humane framework for it but the underlying problems are still there and this either will make you numb to it(psychopathy) or ,in general, leads to people which are more psycopathic to rise to top as an advantage since they can make more rational decisions on average.