[Rancid]

Americans who either explicitly or tacitly approve of Imperial policies.

Then you should have said that.

[Atlantis]

Then you should have said that.

I think there is a lot of ambiguity. Many pretend to be against Imperialism while secretly believing "right or wrong, my country."

I'm just trying to provoke a response from the closet imperialist.

[Rancid]

I'm just trying to provoke a response from the closet imperialist.

What criteria are you using to determine if the response is a so called closet imperialist?

A request for more precision in your diction?

[Torus34]

The problem with Americans is that they can't see the forest because of all the trees. That's why you need another perspective. You need an external view distant from your own to arrive at the truth by a triangulation of facts.

Trump is an end-of-empire phenomenon. Trump is a symptom of decay. He attracts the "losers and suckers" (as he puts it) who know that their best days are over. He offers them a beacon of hope to make American great again by any means whatsoever, and if the rest of humanity needs to be nuked to kingdom come, then, so be it.

Problem is, that isn't making America great again. America is a deeply dysfunctional society with domestic problems it's leaders can't even start to address, while the cost of maintaining the empire is escalating and the vassals show no inclination of wanting to foot the bill.

The answers are not to be found in a sociological or psychological analysis; the answers are not to be found in a socialism/capitalism debate as long as Americans studiously avoid the elephant in the room:

The Empire

Get rid of it, get rid of the imperial presidency and introduce a multiparty parliamentary democracy that's not beholden to the oligarchs. If need, be dissolve the Union.

There is no other way.

Wow! That's a real 'take it or leave it' prescription. That there are a number of problems which all seem to be bubbling up in the US at this time is, I think, obvious. That there are actual solutions to them, or at least means of significant amelioration, should also be a given. The Devil, as is often the case, is in the details.

One detail stands out. It's the question of which of the possible remedies can actually be put into action, given the present political climate and the poisonous cocktail of beliefs being served up by the politicians, talking heads and talk show hosts?

A single example: 'No new taxes!' There's a lot of nonsense being spewed around this talking point. One bit of it is that raising taxes will cause the wealthy to leave and the economy will collapse. A quick peek at, say, the tax structure of Finland and the state of its economy should put an end to that balderdash, but it doesn't. A derived conjecture: In a battle between Emotion and Logic, put your money on Emotion every time.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.

[Rich]

You've now alluded to something which, quite frankly, scares the bejeepers out of me. Our US republic form of constitutional government is surprisingly fragile when faced by a political party willing to ignore the norms and unwritten firewalls that are part and parcel of its stability.

Oh yeah for the good old days. The good old days like, the mass ethnic cleansing of loyalists at the end of the war of independence. Shay's rebellion. The fugitive slave clause. The civil war. The late nineteenth century Jim Crow when lots of Americans had nothing better to do on a Sunday Afternoon that go to a lynching and take a small body part home as a souvenir. Prohibition with its epidemic gangsterism and political corruption. Roosevelt and the racial incarceration of Japanese Americans in prison camps. McCarthyite witch hunts. Kent State. The Joe Biden crime bill which couldn't lock up and where possible execute people, but in particular The US's slave descendants people fast enough. The mass calls for the use of torture on suspects after 9/11.

Yes if only we could return to the lovely cuddly, safe secure norms of the past.

[Torus34]

Oh yeah for the good old days. The good old days like, the mass ethnic cleansing of loyalists at the end of the war of independence. Shay's rebellion. The fugitive slave clause. The civil war. The late nineteenth century Jim Crow when lots of Americans had nothing better to do on a Sunday Afternoon that go to a lynching and take a small body part home as a souvenir. Prohibition with its epidemic gangsterism and political corruption. Roosevelt and the racial incarceration of Japanese Americans in prison camps. McCarthyite witch hunts. Kent State. The Joe Biden crime bill which couldn't lock up and where possible execute people, but in particular The US's slave descendants people fast enough. The mass calls for the use of torture on suspects after 9/11.

Yes if only we could return to the lovely cuddly, safe secure norms of the past.

Hi!

Thank you for your post.

A child of the Great Depression, a survivor of measles, mumps, chicken pox, scarlet fever and pneumonia, I've no rose-colored glasses view of the past.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.

[Atlantis]

@Torus34, I offered you a perspective. A perspective under which all things fall into place. It's totally consistent. It explains most of the US's problems. You refuse to even consider it. What more can I say? Americans delude themselves if they think that their country's external affairs doesn't have any influence on domestic affairs. The fact is, that most domestic problems are a function of the US's role in the world.

Trump is a direct consequence of the US's bipolar system just like Brexit is a direct consequence of the UK's bipolar system, both are indispensable for maintaining an empire.

Unless you understand that, the root of the problem will forever elude you.

@Rancid, as I said, closet imperialists are those who will put their national interests above all else while denying they are supporting imperialism. What about you?

[Torus34]

@Torus34, I offered you a perspective. A perspective under which all things fall into place. It's totally consistent. It explains most of the US's problems. You refuse to even consider it. What more can I say? Americans delude themselves if they think that their country's external affairs doesn't have any influence on domestic affairs. The fact is, that most domestic problems are a function of the US's role in the world.

Trump is a direct consequence of the US's bipolar system just like Brexit is a direct consequence of the UK's bipolar system, both are indispensable for maintaining an empire.

Unless you understand that, the root of the problem will forever elude you.

@Rancid, as I said, closet imperialists are those who will put their national interests above all else while denying they are supporting imperialism. What about you?

Hi!

My concern's with the practicality of the solutions you propose. Given the jealousy with which our two political parties guard their political power, I can see no way in which they would willingly dilute it and agree to reform our present Constitution.

Interestingly, both Ireland and Iceland went through a process of constitutional reform, but the body which did the re-writing wasn't composed of the elected politicians but rather a group primarily composed of non-politicians. I do not see that as a real possibility here in the US.

I do agree with you that a good deal of our government's effort, as well as its expenses, are devoted to maintaining a presence, often military, in the rest of the world. I personally believe we, the US, should reduce this 'footprint', but again it's difficult to see how this could come about, taking into account the US business interests in their overseas operations and their influence upon our federal legislators.

That President of the United States of America Donald Trump is symbol rather than substance is, I feel, a 'given'. The battle between the Republicans and the Democrats [Ed.: or, if you wish, cons vs. libs,] would still go on were there a different person in the Oval Office.

The best defense the American voters have against the power of the parties is to vote in such a way that both houses of Congress are not held by the same party or, if they are, that the administration is headed by someone from the opposing party. Much mischief can obtain when a single party holds all the levers of power.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

[Rancid]

What about you?

What about me?

YOu a shrink?

[Atlantis]

@Torus34, it is obviously true that the two established parties have no interest in implementing the changes I outlined. I tried to define the cause of the problem, but as a non-American, I'm not directly concerned about how to implement these changes.

All I can do is to create awareness of the problem. Awareness is the beginning of all change. From what you are writing, you seem to be aware of the relation between the US's global hegemony and the interests of corporate America. Something that doesn't seem to be accepted by most American interlocutors on Pofo.

But short of a major crisis, it'll be hard to implement fundamental changes to the US's political setup. Maybe, if Trump were to get a 2nd term, that could lead to such a crisis?

Failing to implement fundamental changes, I think the following measures would go into the right direction:

1) limit the power of the president
2) limit political donations
3) tax the wealthy
4) introduce a comprehensive welfare system
5) give up unilateralism and support multilateral institutions including the Paris Agreement, the WTO, the WHO, the ICC, etc.

But even that will be hard to achieve considering how Americans are dyed in the wool haters of all social measures.

@Rancid, stop beating about the bush. I don't know whether you are a closet imperialist. That is something only you can answer.

[Torus34]

@Torus34, it is obviously true that the two established parties have no interest in implementing the changes I outlined. I tried to define the cause of the problem, but as a non-American, I'm not directly concerned about how to implement these changes.

All I can do is to create awareness of the problem. Awareness is the beginning of all change. From what you are writing, you seem to be aware of the relation between the US's global hegemony and the interests of corporate America. Something that doesn't seem to be accepted by most American interlocutors on Pofo.

But short of a major crisis, it'll be hard to implement fundamental changes to the US's political setup. Maybe, if Trump were to get a 2nd term, that could lead to such a crisis?

Failing to implement fundamental changes, I think the following measures would go into the right direction:

1) limit the power of the president
2) limit political donations
3) tax the wealthy
4) introduce a comprehensive welfare system
5) give up unilateralism and support multilateral institutions including the Paris Agreement, the WTO, the WHO, the ICC, etc.

But even that will be hard to achieve considering how Americans are dyed in the wool haters of all social measures.

@Rancid, stop beating about the bush. I don't know whether you are a closet imperialist. That is something only you can answer.

Hi!

Sorry to take so long to get back to you.

The 5 actions you list would certainly go a long way toward fixing what ails the US [and us.] As I noted, though, there's a difference between proscribing a remedy and getting someone -- or a country -- to accept it. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. [Ed.: you can brick a camel, though.]

Perhaps the best we can do here is to take a look at why the US seems unable to help itself. There appear to be two distinct areas to explore. One is that of the general beliefs of Americans qua Americans. The second concerns itself with groups, be they political, religious or economic. [Ed.: Torus, old boy, that's enough for several books!]

Let's start with Americans. We can go all the way back to de Tocqueville to get an outsider's view if we wish. Americans have, still, a sense of the frontier and the personal freedom it represented. If we set up a scale with concern for one's self at one end and concern for one's society at t'other, I suspect that America as a country would fall toward the 'self' end. I also suspect that most modern democracies would fall between America and the 'society' end, with Japan almost the furthest away. I've not tracked down a study on this. Perhaps you know of one or more.

OK. That's it for now. Over to you.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

[Atlantis]

@Torus34, that you are still looking for a cause of the problem suggests that you are not convinced that the Empire is the cause.

There are obviously historical factors determining today's mindset. The sense of freedom, the frontier spirit, American exceptionalism, the inability to come to terms with the consequences of slavery and the genocide of the natives, ..., all of this contributes to making what is the America of today; however, today's interpretation of history always serves to determine future policy.

There are numerous ways in which the Empire determines domestic politics.

Political Consequences

The need to dispatch troops at short notice requires a strong central decision-making body such as the "imperial presidency" (US) and/or the two-party system (UK) leading to majority governments, because minority governments or coalition governments typical of multi-party systems clearly can't serve that purpose.

The disadvantage of the two-party system is that it excludes new political movements and leads to a political establishment seen rightly or wrongly as corrupt (the swamp). The discontent with the establishment leads to anti-establishment movements (Trump in the US, Brexit in the UK) which enter the political stage through the backdoor. Without political experience, these populist movements are incapable of dealing with the real problems of government. In a multi-party system, new political movements typically emerge gradually and before they take on government responsibility, they usually acquire enough political experience and a sense of realism.

Economic Consequences

From an economic point of view, the Empire has hollowed out the US’s industrial base and deprived qualified workers of the means to earn a decent income, which adds to the popular discontent. While manufacturing was off-shored, corporate America has focused on financial and other services. That makes a few people very rich, but impoverishes many others who survive on precarious employment in low-wage service jobs. American oligarchs rely on the US administration to maintain the Empire just like the East India Company relied on the British crown to send gunboats whenever necessary. The result is increasing economic inequality.

Social Consequences

The violence used to maintain the Empire abroad has a way of returning back home. It’s not just disturbed US soldiers who run havoc when returning home, more than that, a society condoning such violence cannot help but become violent.

Thus, the requirement for maintaining an empire has serious political, economic, social and other consequences at home.

[Sivad]

pro-Trumpers are pretty simple to figure out. They don't want to be dominated by the party of Davos technocrats, they don't want to be demographically displaced by a more compliant serf population imported from the various shitholes around the globe, they don't want to be forced into economic competition with those shitholes in a race to the bottom, and they don't want culture imposed on them from above by decadent coastal elites. That's it, that's what motivates the MAGA crowd.

[Sivad]

Things coalesced quite recently thanks to a quote attributed to the late Mahatma Mohandas Gandhi. It goes, 'What you do for me but without me, you do to me.'

"If you're not at the table, you're on the menu."

[Torus34]

@Atlantis:

Hi again.

I must admit to having initially given short shrift to your major premise -- empire. With time and your additional comments, though, it certainly bears further thought. Being part of an empire, even if one doesn't necessarily share in the spoils, does affect one's mindset. The proud boast, 'The sun never sets on the British Empire,' has probably helped many Brits muddle through all manner of troubles.

Great Britain, I would think, is a good example of life after empire. The mess of Brexit aside, the average subject [It's still a monarchy, nu?] is still on the right side of the door with respect to the wolf. There are other examples of nations whose empire collapsed where the wolf came into the kitchen and had pups.

A goodly part of our [The US] empire is bound up with the needs of the military and the multi-national corporations based, or with a major presence in, the US. Given the dependence of our two major political parties and their dependent politicians for 'campaign contributions', I see little chance of significant change in the near future.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

[Torus34]

"If you're not at the table, you're on the menu."

Hi!

A cute flip o' the phrase. Thanks for sharing.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.

[skinster]

pro-Trumpers are pretty simple to figure out. They don't want to be dominated by the party of Davos technocrats, they don't want to be demographically displaced by a more compliant serf population imported from the various shitholes around the globe, they don't want to be forced into economic competition with those shitholes in a race to the bottom, and they don't want culture imposed on them from above by decadent coastal elites. That's it, that's what motivates the MAGA crowd.

What has Trump done for working class Americans these last four years?

[skinster]

Still curious about the above @Sivad

[Sivad]

What has Trump done for working class Americans these last four years?

He pulled out of the Paris agreement, he put the kibosh on the TPP, he pulled out of Syria, he didn't start a war with Iran, he's done a bunch of shit but the biggest thing he's done is shit all over elitist institutions. There is no progress for the working class as long as elistst power structures hold sway over society. You fake socialists just want to take over those power structures, real socialists want them totally demolished.

[Sivad]

It's funny but if Trump did manage to shut down all immigration from Central America and shut off that pressure release safety valve, it would trigger massive uprisings throughout the region making Trump the greatest liberator since Bolivar.

The uprisings would no doubt be instantly hijacked by the gulagists but still, Trump would be responsible for causing the greatest mass revolt probably in all of human history.