[QatzelOk]

**Roman Empire (light blue)**

...

PEAK ROMAN EMPIRE: 1979

The latest (and perhaps last) incarnation of the Roman Empire had its first critical blow dealt to it in the 1979 Iranian Revolution when Iranians rose up and overthrew their coup-d'etat-installed Western puppet Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi AKA the Shah.

This was important because Iranian oil was firmly in the hands of the UK both before and after WW2, and the British navy had converted from coal to oil primarily on this cheap source of colonial oil pillaging, staffed with cheap Indian laborers.
(https://scheerpost.com/2023/04/07/iran- ... ked-coups/)

Reason for the Revolution

The Iranians had elected a communist with a PhD in Law in 1951, Mohammad Mosaddegh, who immediately nationalized Anglo-Iranian oil so that the money could be used to improve the lots of Iranians. He was almost immediately overthrown in a Western-backed coupTM a few years later, and the Shah - a monarch! - was put in place to rule over Iranian peasants. This didn't work out well for most Iranians, with the SAVAK secret police having removed many hands and feet from protestors demaning a return to democracy and better distribution of resources and more human rights.

So the revolution happened in order to get rid of a monarch who was addicted to torture - a valid reason.

***

WHY THIS IS IMPORTANT

This is important because this set the stage for late 20th Century tactics in maintaining the Roman Empire's colonialism over most of the world's surface. The late-stage capitalist model of Roman Empire neo-colonialism goes like this:

1. Overthrow popular local leader who promises to decolonialize

2. Replace him with a pompous monarch who is completely dependent on Western protection

3. Plunder the resources while providing the king with lots of gold, flashy clothing and weaponry, hoping that the peasants will learn to admire the glitz and pageantry... while they shiver in fear of the secret police.

Western-backed coups all over the world have followed this model, right up to the overthrow of Viktor Yanukovych in 2014, accomplished while Russia was preoccupied with its olympic games in Sochi. Chile also had its government overthrown in a Western-sponsored coup in 1973 (replaced by a Hitler-like Pinochet dictator), as did Haiti on several occasions in my lifetime. Juan Guaido was a failed attempt at creating another one of these Roman Empire vassals.

Eventually, these Roman Empire coups lead to civil war, refugees, and a loss of sovereignty and local resources to international capital. In the case of Haiti, this cycle of Roman Empire interference might lead to starvation and mass famine.

PERSIA STICKS OUT ITS NECK

The first shot heard around the world... was the Shah getting kicked out of Iran. And the Roman Empire will never forget or forgive this act of insubordination. Our Caesars and their ready-made gods... play the long game and have no mercy on anyone or anything that tries to block their insatiable appetite for moar.

And to this, Iranians said: Shah shah a go go!

soundtrack with lyrics

[annatar1914]

**Roman Empire (light blue)**

...

PEAK ROMAN EMPIRE: 1979

The latest (and perhaps last) incarnation of the Roman Empire had its first critical blow dealt to it in the 1979 Iranian Revolution when Iranians rose up and overthrew their coup-d'etat-installed Western puppet Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi AKA the Shah.

This was important because Iranian oil was firmly in the hands of the UK both before and after WW2, and the British navy had converted from coal to oil primarily on this cheap source of colonial oil pillaging, staffed with cheap Indian laborers.
(https://scheerpost.com/2023/04/07/iran- ... ked-coups/)

Reason for the Revolution

The Iranians had elected a communist with a PhD in Law in 1951, Mohammad Mosaddegh, who immediately nationalized Anglo-Iranian oil so that the money could be used to improve the lots of Iranians. He was almost immediately overthrown in a Western-backed coupTM a few years later, and the Shah - a monarch! - was put in place to rule over Iranian peasants. This didn't work out well for most Iranians, with the SAVAK secret police having removed many hands and feet from protestors demaning a return to democracy and better distribution of resources and more human rights.

So the revolution happened in order to get rid of a monarch who was addicted to torture - a valid reason.

***

WHY THIS IS IMPORTANT

This is important because this set the stage for late 20th Century tactics in maintaining the Roman Empire's colonialism over most of the world's surface. The late-stage capitalist model of Roman Empire neo-colonialism goes like this:

1. Overthrow popular local leader who promises to decolonialize

2. Replace him with a pompous monarch who is completely dependent on Western protection

3. Plunder the resources while providing the king with lots of gold, flashy clothing and weaponry, hoping that the peasants will learn to admire the glitz and pageantry... while they shiver in fear of the secret police.

Western-backed coups all over the world have followed this model, right up to the overthrow of Viktor Yanukovych in 2014, accomplished while Russia was preoccupied with its olympic games in Sochi. Chile also had its government overthrown in a Western-sponsored coup in 1973 (replaced by a Hitler-like Pinochet dictator), as did Haiti on several occasions in my lifetime. Juan Guaido was a failed attempt at creating another one of these Roman Empire vassals.

Eventually, these Roman Empire coups lead to civil war, refugees, and a loss of sovereignty and local resources to international capital. In the case of Haiti, this cycle of Roman Empire interference might lead to starvation and mass famine.

PERSIA STICKS OUT ITS NECK

The first shot heard around the world... was the Shah getting kicked out of Iran. And the Roman Empire will never forget or forgive this act of insubordination. Our Caesars and their ready-made gods... play the long game and have no mercy on anyone or anything that tries to block their insatiable appetite for moar.

And to this, Iranians said: Shah shah a go go!

soundtrack with lyrics

@QatzelOk

I appreciate what you are saying and I concur to a significant degree. But I feel that that model was put into test mode with Tsar Peter , to end in 1917.

But yes, the Roman Empire.

[late]

But yes, the Roman Empire.

This is what Qatz thinks he is:

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/5bb4658d-0340-4c0d-b17e-fb5bf37dcc48

Qatz keeps ignoring Putin's imperial ambitions. But unlike Obi Wan Kenobi, he's not trying to avoid this imperial entanglement.

[QatzelOk]

Qatz keeps ignoring Putin's imperial ambitions.

I haven't seen them anywhere, so it's like ignoring an invisible entity.

Perhaps you can provide a video of an Putin oration that proves this to be true, Latus Posterius.

Or: A papyrus scroll that Putin wrote expressing a desire to take over the entire world and put military bases all over it.

[late]

I haven't seen them anywhere, so it's like ignoring an invisible entity.

Perhaps you can provide a video of an Putin oration that proves this to be true, Latus Posterius.

Or: A papyrus scroll that Putin wrote expressing a desire to take over the entire world and put military bases all over it.

Ukraine is the fifth time... how many do you need.

You can also look at what he's said and written, or even the statues he likes.

Ain't rocket science.

[QatzelOk]

Ukraine is the fifth time... how many do you need.

You can also look at what he's said and written, or even the statues he likes.

Ain't rocket science.

In the Late Roman Empire, you can make a claim like the one above without having to back it up at all.

This makes lying very easy and very effective. Much more effective than the truth would be.

The Roman helots are so dumbed down, so obese, and so isolated from what used to be their communities, that they don't even know how to recognize wisdom anymore. They just watch and obey and will continue to dumbly do so right up until the entire house of cards collapses. They will now know why this happened when it does. They will look idiotically at the media "for answers" (scapegoats) which their mafia-controlled media will happily provide... again.

***



Traditional values like patriotism, religion and community have plunged dramatically among Americans: poll

***

I have watched many of Putin's speeches of the last few years, and he has never claimed to want to take over the world. It is the media of the nation with 800 bases and non-stop wars for world control... that accuses him of this... based on thin air.

The Iranians saw through this in the late 70s when disco was peaking. Iranians gathered in groups and told the Great Satan to burn baby burn.

[late]

I have watched many of Putin's speeches of the last few years, and he has never claimed to want to take over the world. It is the media of the nation with 800 bases and non-stop wars for world control... that accuses him of this... based on thin air.

It's based on reality.

I've gone over all this before, you keep repeating that propaganda because it suits your cartoonish view of the world.

[QatzelOk]

It's based on reality.

Can you provide a quote by him that indicates "wanting to take over the world"-ishness?

Because the last ten leaders of the USA have all spoken like world dictators, threatening virutally every country on earth with sanctions or war... if they don't "do what they're told."

So it's important to back up any claim that "those other leaders" are the ones who want to control the world.

By the way, after all the (mostly) European attempts to "control the world" over the last 2 millennia... the world is more fragile than ever and might not be able to sustain human life much longer. And it all started with the burning to the ground of Carthage by the Romans... soon to be followed by the land-mining of massive areas of land and sea, the poisonning of ecosystems with chemical and biological weapons (in Korea, Vietnam, etc.), the use of depleted uranium to give the children of Iraq birth defects forever... etc.

The Western empire (Rome, part XX) is so toxic and lost in its hubris and simulacra and lies... that it will bring itself down eventually, even if no other world power intervenes to stop it. Thing is, "stopping Rome" is the only way to protect the earth from the decadence that Rome represents.

Q: "Dear Roman Empire thread, did the Romans really salt the soil of Carthage?"

A: No, they did not. But centures of Roman agricultural practices DID destroy the fertility of vast swaths of the Medittaranean region, including much of North Africa.

[Rich]

And it all started with the burning to the ground of Carthage by the Romans....

While the defeat of Carthage was an extremely notable event in the rise of the west-West, I don't think it was very notable in terms of pyrotechnics. I suspect humans have been burning down cities for as long as we've had cities, and I'm pretty sure the systematic use of large scale fire has been utilised by humans way before the Neolithic.

I have perhaps been somewhat imprecise in my use of the term West and have not been alert enough to the liberals sleight of hand. Leaving aside the Minoans as our knowledge of them is so limited. The West begins with the Greek city states. It was later led by Alexander the Great and succeeded by the Hellenistic Alexandrian successor states. Ptolemaic Egypt being something of a hybrid. Now the acute observer might have noticed that Carthage actually lies to the west of Rome, however Carthage was an Eastern Semitic culture not a Western one. Rome reunited the West and then split into the west-West and east-West. Byzantium and of course Russia are just as much western successors to Homer, Athens, Sparta, Alexander, the Diadochi and imperial Rome as are Britain, France and the United States.

[Tainari88]

While the defeat of Carthage was an extremely notable event in the rise of the west-West, I don't think it was very notable in terms of pyrotechnics. I suspect humans have been burning down cities for as long as we've had cities, and I'm pretty sure the systematic use of large scale fire has been utilised by humans way before the Neolithic.

I have perhaps been somewhat imprecise in my use of the term West and have not been alert enough to the liberals sleight of hand. Leaving aside the Minoans as our knowledge of them is so limited. The West begins with the Greek city states. It was later led by Alexander the Great and succeeded by the Hellenistic Alexandrian successor states. Ptolemaic Egypt being something of a hybrid. Now the acute observer might have noticed that Carthage actually lies to the west of Rome, however Carthage was an Eastern Semitic culture not a Western one. Rome reunited the West and then split into the west-West and east-West. Byzantium and of course Russia are just as much western successors to Homer, Athens, Sparta, Alexander, the Diadochi and imperial Rome as are Britain, France and the United States.

Imperial Rome and Greece and France are not culturally Anglo Rich. They never will be. They are Western Civilizations but they are not Anglo. Anglos are Germania and considered Barbarian hordes in general. Lol. You are really off the rails thinking Europe is not more diverse than it is. Italians and Spaniards and French people are not Anglo Saxons in any shape or form. Way too boring you guys are. Lol.

Tell me what the British do that is a lot more fun than the other groups? Come on Rich. What exactly makes the British the inheritors of the Greeks and the Romans? Not even your language is a Romance language. It is based on German.

Do you like the Germans more than the Romans? Why?

https://youtube.com/shorts/jshvu4zvXjs?feature=share

Great cultures are mainly multicultural. Think about that one....purity and racist shitty thoughts are always wrong.

[Steve_American]

In the Late Roman Empire, you can make a claim like the one above without having to back it up at all.

This makes lying very easy and very effective. Much more effective than the truth would be.

The Roman helots are so dumbed down, so obese, and so isolated from what used to be their communities, that they don't even know how to recognize wisdom anymore. They just watch and obey and will continue to dumbly do so right up until the entire house of cards collapses. They will now know why this happened when it does. They will look idiotically at the media "for answers" (scapegoats) which their mafia-controlled media will happily provide... again.

***



Traditional values like patriotism, religion and community have plunged dramatically among Americans: poll

***

I have watched many of Putin's speeches of the last few years, and he has never claimed to want to take over the world. It is the media of the nation with 800 bases and non-stop wars for world control... that accuses him of this... based on thin air.

The Iranians saw through this in the late 70s when disco was peaking. Iranians gathered in groups and told the Great Satan to burn baby burn.

Did the real Roman Empire ever say it wanted to take over the entire world.

Since when is it necessary for a Empire to say it wants to take over the world for it to be considered a real Empire. In 1850 did the French "Enpire" say it wanted to take over the world, or did the British Empire ever say that.

AFAIK, IMHO, Putin has said he wants to grow Russia to at least the old USSR's borders.

Peter Zeiham says Putin wants to expand the control all 9 open gaps that are flat lines of attack to attack Russia. This means he needs the old USSR and at least Poland and Rumania.

IMO, If he got that far, it would be fair to call it an Empire.

.

[Rich]

Did the real Roman Empire ever say it wanted to take over the entire world.

Since when is it necessary for a Empire to say it wants to take over the world for it to be considered a real Empire.

America has sought to take over the world since FDR. Roosevelt created the United Nations as a vehicle through which it would rule the world. Obviously that didn't quite work out the way he hoped but that was its intention.

But what is America's justification for ruling the world? What gives America the right to the rule world? America must rule the world in order to stop someone else ruling the world. As time has gone on we have become very exercised about Hitler's genocide and slavery, but at the time the primary accusation against Hitler was not slavery or genocide, but the claim that he wanted to take over the world. America's claim is that it had no interest in ruling the world till Hitler forced it out of isolation to stop him taking over the world.

The story goes that it was all about dominoes. That the remilitarisation of the Rhineland, the breaking of Versailles treaty rules on rearmament, the Anschluss, the Sudetenland, etc were just falling dominoes on the way to world conquest. That anyone who didn't reject all negotiations with Hitler, that didn't demand the Nazis destruction was either a traitor or a fool.

Hence the big debate in the Cold War between doves and hawks, were Korea, Vietnam, Lao, Afghanistan etc dominoes on the road to world domination. (Forgive my mixing of metaphors). As I've said before, no one cares about genocide, no one cares about slavery. This is why Pol Pot was innocent. This why Pol Pot was a worthy ally of the Liberal Democracies, because no one could seriously accuse him of being on the path to world conquest.

[Steve_American]

America has sought to take over the world since FDR. Roosevelt created the United Nations as a vehicle through which it would rule the world. Obviously that didn't quite work out the way he hoped but that was its intention.

But what is America's justification for ruling the world? What gives America the right to the rule world? America must rule the world in order to stop someone else ruling the world. As time has gone on we have become very exercised about Hitler's genocide and slavery, but at the time the primary accusation against Hitler was not slavery or genocide, but the claim that he wanted to take over the world. America's claim is that it had no interest in ruling the world till Hitler forced it out of isolation to stop him taking over the world.

The story goes that it was all about dominoes. That the remilitarisation of the Rhineland, the breaking of Versailles treaty rules on rearmament, the Anschluss, the Sudetenland, etc were just falling dominoes on the way to world conquest. That anyone who didn't reject all negotiations with Hitler, that didn't demand the Nazis destruction was either a traitor or a fool.

Hence the big debate in the Cold War between doves and hawks, were Korea, Vietnam, Lao, Afghanistan etc dominoes on the road to world domination. (Forgive my mixing of metaphors). As I've said before, no one cares about genocide, no one cares about slavery. This is why Pol Pot was innocent. This why Pol Pot was a worthy ally of the Liberal Democracies, because no one could seriously accuse him of being on the path to world conquest.

WTF, Rich.
He was talking about Putin and Russia, and not the US. I replied about Putin and Russia.

You didn't ask me about the US, but I'll tell you anyway.

IMHO, Yes, the US acts as if it is an Empire. Like the Romans, the US often uses local rulers to manage their client states for it. The US often kills the local rulers if they get out of line.

I'm opposed to all this, but the US Gov. doesn't care what the bottom 90% think, need, or want. The Gov. only cares about what the top 20% and especially the top 1% want.

.

[Steve_American]

People, I have a theory. I created it decades ago.

I think that after WWI, WWII, and the the atom bomb, people changed their thinkng about how moral it is for nations to invade their neighbors.

Before WWI there was no international law agaainst doing it. No advaced nation thought twice about another invading a poor dark skinned nation. It was totally normal.
After WWI had shown 2 things, a new attitude grew in some nations against invading advanced nations. The 2 things were, 1] the massive cost of war in blood and treasure, and 2] the apparent lack of decisive battlefield victories. So, Mr. Kellogg was able to get a conferance going in 1927 at which most advanced nation signed a "pact," the Kellogg Briand Pact (spelling?). It outlawed aggressive wars.

Obviously some nations (Italy, Japan, and Germany) signed, but new leaders didn't get the memo.

They started WWII. WWII totally confirmed the 2 lessons of WWI. It was longer and 4 times as bloody IIRC, and maybe over10 times as much treasure was spent. Those who started it lost. So, it was more clear that aggressive wars were not a paying plan.

And then, the atom bombs were dropped on Japan. This made it more obvious that aggressive wars were not a good plan.

It seems that Putin din't get the memo. He can point at the US, but the US did get some sort of permission from the UN before it invaded most of the nations it invaded.

So, people today have a holier than thou attitude toward leaders and populations in the past who invaded neighbors. IMHO, people today would be doing the same things if wars had not become like WWI and WWII proved they are, and if the atom bomb didn't work. That is, the conditions changed so the morality changed. In Roman times, wars and battles didn't destroy much stuff. Metal was collected from the battlefield, only sunken ships were lost forever. Young men were expendable, and the food they ate would have been eated anyway. So, the cost was less, and was actually less than the gain, if you won. So, aggressive wars were a good idea in many cases.

I read a book in the 60s about the wars between 1850 and 1950. It pointed out that in almost all cases the attacker lost the war. The Russo-Japanese being the main exception. So, the cost was very high after 1910 and the attacker lost even before that. Totally differnt from times past.

I also think that it is possible that slavery fell out of favor only becasue of the steam engine could replace slave labor. Again, changed conditions changed the morality.

So, the US has adapted to this new moral reality and Putin has not. The US mostly works with money and not rifles and tanks. It doesn't occupy nations, it leaves.
So, yes the US is an Empire, it just uses different methods. This doesn't make it OK IMO.

.

[late]

I read a book in the 60s about the wars between 1850 and 1950. It pointed out that in almost all cases the attacker lost the war. The Russo-Japanese being the main exception. So, the cost was very high after 1910 and the attacker lost even before that. Totally different from times past.

I also think that it is possible that slavery fell out of favor only because of the steam engine could replace slave labor. Again, changed conditions changed the morality.

So, the US has adapted to this new moral reality and Putin has not. The US mostly works with money and not rifles and tanks. It doesn't occupy nations, it leaves.
So, yes the US is an Empire, it just uses different methods. This doesn't make it OK IMO.

Russia is a poor country. Russia ships weren't very good, and their sailors were poorly trained. As everyone knows, when the Japanese set their mind to something, things happen. That war doesn't contradict your idea.

I like your idea, but it needs to be expanded. I think there were 5 empires at the beginning of WW1, they all perished, except Britain. And the Brits were dead men walking, the next war would end their empire, and cripple the economy.

What we are is complicated. Tanari, for example, has a point. But so do you. The system we built created immense wealth, and relative peace. But we also did a lot of bad sh*t.

The thing that keeps Western military leaders awake at night is the thought they might have to fight Putin. We could roll him up like a rug. At that point, he launches nukes.

At the same time, he's trapped himself. Admitting a mistake can get a dictator killed. There's a theory he is going to control part of the Donbass, and declare victory. The problem with that is Ukraine is really, really, really pissed.

[QatzelOk]

Did the real Roman Empire ever say it wanted to take over the entire world.

"Behold them, conquerors of the world, the toga-clad race of Romans!"
-Augustus Caesar. https://kidadl.com/quotes/top-augustus- ... or-of-rome

"It is the right of war for conquerors to treat those whom they have conquered according to their pleasure."
- Julius Caesar. https://www.azquotes.com/quote/1164904
(and there's lots more if you look)


Here's one from a more recent empire

AFAIK, IMHO, Putin has said he wants to grow Russia to at least the old USSR's borders.

Can you please find a quote from his mouth, rather than a vague "it seems to me that..."?
We are living in yet another time of intense anti-Russian propaganda, so actual quotes matter.

The US often kills the local rulers if they get out of line.

And it was the USA that installed the current Ukraine regime, so this vassalhood is important in understanding why Russia would feel threatened by a hostile, vassal-killing hegemon next door.

Roosevelt created the United Nations as a vehicle through which it would rule the world.

In much the same way that Rome created the Roman Catholic Church for the same reason. To offer a fake "univeralism" to Roman interests.



The Roman Catholic Church only recently recinded the Doctrine of Discovery that allowed European Catholics to kill any First Nations who didn't buy into the Catholic Church's rules. IE. that 15% of your land and 10% of your weekly income "belongs to" to the Pope and his minions.

This tacit approval of genocide was a world-controlling strategy of "the moral authority of Rome." Like a mafia boss saying "If they don't pay up and let us control all the casinos and hotels, whack them!"

And the UN - with its pals at the World Bank and IMF... have followed through with very similar programs to the Doctrine of Discovery. I think you could call the UN's campaigns *the Doctrine of Austerity* but it amounts to similarly genocidal policies from Empire Central.


.