[Fouad Shoubaki]

Okay there were three parties involved in the slave trade, Christians from Europe, Black Kings, and Arab Traders. To put 75% on the whites is not true. 10's of million went to Arab traders as well. I would say 50% white, 25% black, 25% Arab.

Nono , this is pretty much reversing things incorrectly .

The Black Kings did not way make 25% of the Slave trade , not by a mile . Its not just the first hand who gets counted , its an entire system , and that entire system was White and Arab to a certain degree .

Id say 80% European , 19% Arab and 1% Black Kings .

Dont we have factual data on this ? Probably not .....seems we never have factual data on anything

Damn knowledge-revisionists .

[nico]

Well Foaud here are some numbers:

In The Slave Trade, Hugh Thomas estimates that 13M left African ports, and 11,328,000 arrived. Here are a few other numbers from Thomas:

No year-by-year stats, but by piecing together scattered decade stats, I figure that 5M slaves were shipped in the 18th Century.
Shipboard mortality among slaves:
Mercado in 1569 estimated an average shipboard mortality of 20%
Brazilian historians: 15-20% in 16th C; 10% in 19th C.
English trade:
1680s: 24%
early 18th C: 10%
1780s: 5.65%
Hugh Thomas: 9% reasonable est. for 18th C.
19th C
Cliffe: 35%
House of Commons: 9.1%
Thomson: 9%
Hotham: 5%
In the chapter on African population in the Atlas of World Population History (1978), Colin McEvedy estimates that 9.5 million African slaves were imported into the Americas between 1500 and 1880. He also suggests a 15% mortality rate on the ocean.

Rummel estimates a total death toll of 17,267,000 African slaves (1451-1870)

Among slaves going to Orient: 2,400,000 dead
Among slaves staying in Africa: 1,200,000 dead
Among slaves going to New World: 13,667,000 dead
Fredric Wertham claims that 150,000,000 Africans died of the slave trade.

My Estimate: (not mine NICO)
Looking at all the scholarship on the subject, it looks like, at the very least, 35% of those enslaved in Africa died before they were ever put to work in America. On the other hand, at least 20% of them survived. Between these extreme possibilites (35-80%), the most likely mortality rate is 62%.

In terms of absolute numbers, the lowest possible (and only barely possible at that) death toll we can put on the trans-Atlantic slave trade is 6 million. If we assume the absolute worst, a death toll as high as 60 million is at the very edge of possibility; however, the likeliest number of deaths would fall somewhere from 15 to 20 million.


Slavery in the Islamic World
Ronald Segal, in Islam's Black Slaves, estimates the total number of African slaves shipped to the Muslim world at 11.5M-14M. This breaks down as follows:

From 650-1600 CE
Citing Ralph Austen:
Trans-Saharan: 4,820,000
Red Sea: 1.6M
East Africa: 0.8M
TOTAL: 7.22M
Citing Paul Lovejoy: 3.5-10.0M
17th Century
Sahara: 0.7M
Red Sea: 0.1M
East Africa: 0.1M
TOTAL: 900,000
18th C
Sahara: 0.7M
Red Sea: 0.2M
East Africa: 0.4M
TOTAL: 1,300,000
19th C
Sahara: 1.2M
Red Sea: 0.45M
East Africa: 0.442M
TOTAL: 2,092,000
TOTAL: 11,512,000
Segal also mentions estimates by Raymond Mauvy:

7th C: 0.1M
8th C: 0.2M
9th C: 0.4M
10th-13th Cs: 2.0M
14th C: 1.0M
15th-19th Cs: 10.0M
First half 20th C.: 300,000
TOTAL: 14M
What was the mortality rate among these slaves? Here are a few estimates in Segal:

Wylde: Each eunuch in Cairo represented 200 dead Sudanese.
Hourst, 19th C: each sale represented a loss of ten in the original population, including raids.
Livingstone: 1 living = 10 dead.
British Govt Rpt: For every 10 slaves reaching 19C Cairo, 50 died on the way.
Nachtigal: on one large [typical?] Saharan caravan, 3 or 4 died for every survivor.
UK Consul in Zanzibar: 1:1 ratio
Mahadi: 20% in Saharan trade
Lovejoy, citing Martin: 9% overall in 19th C. East Africa. (Segal: safe estimate)
Death Toll
How many people died in all the slave harvesting by Moslems over the centuries? I hesitate to estimate, but I think we can safely assume that at least 3 people died for every 2 living slaves delivered (similar to the death rate in the Atlantic trade), which comes to about 19M deaths. Keep in mind that the data is so spotty and the margin of error so wide that we can't honestly or definitively accuse either the Christian or Moslem slave trade of being worse than the other.

So then look Whites 45%, Arabs 45%, and blacks 10%. Agree?

[Fouad Shoubaki]

So then look Whites 45%, Arabs 45%, and blacks 10%. Agree?

Not yet . First of all , if we are calculating simply on how many slaves went where (worked for who) , then please give me exact numbers . As far as I can tell is 19M + 14M not 45% of 150 M

So please , formulate your proposal a bit more clear (and give backup/links) .

Anywyas my first proposel dealt with not how many slaves only , but also how many peoples . Lets say for instance that 2 Black Kings profited from everything (lets say 10% of the slaves) , doesnt mean that they hold as Africans equal responsibility as for instance hundreds of Whites who held the same ammount , and all those others involved in the trade and employment .

[nico]

I think that Black kings selling out their own kind are the worst ilk on earth. I don't think we should % this thing, but let's say 40 million Blacks were transported throughout the world, 20 million whites, 19 million Arab, give or take a million.

[Fouad Shoubaki]

I think that Black kings selling out their own kind are the worst ilk on earth.

Everybody who profits from his own brothers like is just horrible .

don't think we should % this thing,

I think we should , because you make assertions that dont match . Im finding it hard to believe that the Arabs have been as active as you propse , equal to Europeans . They were very activ eyes , but come'on now ....... its Euro what its about here .

but let's say 40 million Blacks were transported throughout the world, 20 million whites, 19 million Arab, give or take a million.

Give or take a million , give or take a billion . This doesnt make sense

[nico]

I think we should , because you make assertions that dont match . Im finding it hard to believe that the Arabs have been as active as you propse , equal to Europeans . They were very activ eyes , but come'on now ....... its Euro what its about here .


I think that it took Arabs longer to transport those millions, and since history in that part of the world is more subdued. I mean Arab nations are not famous for their honesty. It;s not only Euro Foaud don't try to blame it on us solely. Arabs had a major role to play in the African slave trade, I believe they had a colony or something of the like in Congo.

Arab Military Territory
c.1870 Arab traders established their first trading posts. In the course
of the following years - through a network of fortified
trading posts and alliances with local leaders - they succeeded
in imposing their power in large parts of Eastern Congo. When
the Belgians arrived they were powerful enough to halt them.
1884 Agreement dividing the region between the two powers was reached.
1887 Tippo Tip recognized as "vali" (governor) of the eastern regions
of the Congo Free State.
1892 Following some local incidents, the Belgian authorities begin
conquest of the region, resulting in the temporary establishment
of the Arab Military Territory.
1894 Belgian conquest completed; fully incorporated into Congo.




Give or take a million , give or take a billion . This doesnt make sense

Of course it makes sense, we don't know the exact numbers from what I read 39 million were enslaved, so I added one million to even it out.

[Gothmog]

See this is another opinion . Why not ? There is serious evidence that there HAS BEEN an alliance in some sense political , that an alliance was desired , the only question is the actual poractice within the ghetto's that I am questioning here . When a man like Avraham Stern who played such a major role in things actually speaks of "goodwill of the Reich" according to European Jewry , I mean wtf ?

-Right, you had some right wing Jewish thugs which tried an alliance with NAZIS, but it seems that alliance didn´t go too far. Quite diferent is to say Zionism and Nazism were friends. Even if you had better evidence on this point (and you don´t), we still could argued that, among all ideologies, there were elements that tried an accomodation or even an alliance with NAZIS, including Stalinist USSR and the Western democracies (remember Munich?). Still, in the end, Nazism proved to be extremely refractory to any kind of accomodation/cooperation. So what is your point in proving that Zionism and Nazism were friends? Does it increase or decrease the crimes Israel has been commiting? To discover an alliance between South Africans and NAZIS (which, bte, I don´t know if existed) would turn apartheid worse than it really was? My point is that, when you raise this conspiracies theories with little documental support, you weakens your point, which, otherwise, is quite valid! ´Why instead don´t you tell us something about the segregation policies of Israel or about the legitimacy of the methods used by Palestinian groups (which I support to some extent-see the Topic "Meanwhile in the land of Apartheid))?

Kapos (camp-guards) arent THAT relevant (as I explained depends on where they came from) , Ordnungsdienst and Judenrat and other authorities that arranged Jewish matters were much more important . As the political parties that were allowed to ACT FREELY were Zionists shipping peoples to Palestine , and as the German-Jewish self-destruction system was created , who other then them would fit better ? What other Jew than a Zionist would become Ordnungsdients . Was the case of the man I mentioned a systematical one ? I think it was . What we need is lists of Ordnungsdienst and political activity ? Do we have those ? Do we have acces ? For as long as we dont have those , why are we assuming those peoples were NOT zionists , while only zionists in those positions from EVERY point of view you look at it brings in any logic . And then allof a sudden they were all militant ? Where did they get arms ? And why are such important questions regarding the state if Israel all being swept out of the way with the most stupid arguments ?

What ? I should be part of the source before I can use its content as motivation ? Thats the stupidest thing Ive ever heard . So if Im not Commie I cant use Lenin arguments for Imperialism ?

If the Bushmen came with good points on this I would use the Bushmens arguments , lets get a little serious here please .....

-A big diference here. Lenin´s arguments were based in reason and not in the faith of supernatural. Those religious Jews arguments were based on their faith. If you don´t follow their faith, you cannot consider those arguments true.

But they were about the most relevant part , who led the 700.000 Europeans to Israel in 47 ? They were the ones who had most impact on the militancy of the movement , nobody else . And when u say 48 , is that before or after independance ? because if its after .....it doesnt really make sense since they simply got swallowed by the system .

-Before and after the independence, Irgun and Stern were minority. Their program for a Israeli state were not the same of the program of socialist Jews. It took many years for them to reach power, so I wouldn´t argue they were so important in defining Zionist ideology. Actually there were and still are many Jews who are against the apartheid system.

Why the hell do I have to be something ? If you ask what my position is in the Palestinian question , then indeed I take the position of Palestinian nationalism , and in the Arabic question Arabic nationalism .
Thing is , all this shouldnt become involved in this issue of Nazi-Zionist alliance and the one fragment I point out specifically .

-This will be important, because sooner or latter you will start another topic on that question, but then your insistence in those unproven theories will make you lose credibility even among those who are opposed to Israeli policies.

No ..... not all Jews are Zionists , and not all Zionists are Jews .
I like Jews My best friends name is Shlomo . I think he has a funny name . I like Yiddish . I dont like fabricated ancient languages in a *modern coat* hijacked by European colonists who have brought back the shekel .

-Right, and what would you do with Zionists?

That would be my ideal as for todays situation , Im not even for sending those colonists back to their homes in Odessa and Berlin , but that means equality for ALL peoples , all who have fled . But thats not happening . So then I would even go for 2 states , as long as they provide equality . Not happening either ...... You see we leave out justice , and still nothing .

Well then ONLY Justice if thats the way its gotta be which means total war on the Zionist state untill it falls or there is no more people there to hold it up . Its far to late for peace by surrendering .......

-But you know more than me that this war cannot be won. Israeli can win (speaking in military terms) but cannot accept the political costs of victory. The Palestinians can eventually inflict enough losses on Israelis to force them give up the occupation, but will never have the power to destroy the "Zionist entity". The common ruin seems to be the most possible outcome of such a conflict.
-Btw: There was contacts and attempts to make alliances with NAZIS from Arab nationalists too, right? Does it make arab nationalism less legitimate?

[Fouad Shoubaki]

Ok Ok , My bad

I obviously had the illusion I could have a decent discussion with purpose of knowledge in this sprecific "history" forum about some historical issues . Obviously I was wrong


It seems that non-stop almost these things cannot be discussed at least in a seperate atmosphere apart from :

So what is your point in proving that Zionism and Nazism were friends? Does it increase or decrease the crimes Israel has been commiting? To discover an alliance between South Africans and NAZIS (which, bte, I don´t know if existed) would turn apartheid worse than it really was? My point is that, when you raise this conspiracies theories with little documental support, you weakens your point, which, otherwise, is quite valid!


Why does a discussion about Zionism have to be actual ? Why does it have to deal with todays Palestinian question ? Why cant we seperate matters ? For instance , I might bring in an anthropological question of Jewish origin , what will you say then ? The same as now ? :

´Why instead don´t you tell us something about the segregation policies of Israel or about the legitimacy of the methods used by Palestinian groups (which I support to some extent-see the Topic "Meanwhile in the land of Apartheid))?

I cannot have interest for other aspects of Judaism and Zionism other than todays political actuality ? What bullshit is this ? This is history thread , your thread is rightfully NOT here , so why do you try to shift my object of study into something that its not , while its perfect where it is right now ? In HISTORY .

I dont care that you support the side I would support , that is not whats in question here . God cant I just want to find things out ? Does everything have to be todays news ?

Just mix it all up into one point of view .....thats not how it works , and it doesnt promote objectivity one bit , not even close .

I have no point in proving a Zionist-Nazi alliance other than simply for historical fact-gathering . Since when is knowing history a problem ?

This will be important, because sooner or latter you will start another topic on that question, but then your insistence in those unproven theories will make you lose credibility even among those who are opposed to Israeli policies.


Yes great well credibility is in the eyes of the beholder , and I do not depend on another mans vision . The whole point of finding something out is that its not perfectly proven yet . If one is stupid enough to link everything together and come up with his imagination of credibility , thats great , but I frankly couldnt give a fuck . All this ad hominem bullpoo is seriously sadning , its the CONTENT that you should judge not the SOURCE nor the MESSENGER .

By your judgement I should not talk to Christians like Nico because their credibility is totally screwed since they believe in some invisible space-alien that rules the world through Jesus Christ ? So everything he now says is shit because of this ? What a bullshit man , I suggest you drop by The Logic Cafe for a second

Let me get Ad-Hominem for a second as well then : Before even checking out that thread by what you have stated on this thread only I am really worried that a dude like yourself is defending my brothers struggle of Palestine .

So lets get back to the point :

you had some right wing Jewish thugs which tried an alliance with NAZIS, but it seems that alliance didn´t go too far.

And why exactly does it seem like that to you ? Obviously alliances have been proven that fit this trail of thought , yet they are what ....coincidence ? Please tell me exactly why not ?

Even if you had better evidence on this point (and you don´t)
we still could argued that


1)What do you consider acceptable evidence ? And how do you suppose we can get such ? The entire context is lied and pieces of puzzles are found , I want namelists to why cant I get them anywhere ? Why doesnt anybody know ANTHING ?
2)You proof your pre-position , that means it doesnt matter what I bring in on this subject to you its a closed book that you havent even read yet .
3)Arguing seems to be the only thing you are after , I dont want to argue you . I want you to think with me and find answers if you care to know , but you just want to state my incorrectness .

among all ideologies, there were elements that tried an accomodation or even an alliance with NAZIS, including Stalinist USSR and the Western democracies (remember Munich?).

Whats your point ?

Still, in the end, Nazism proved to be extremely refractory to any kind of accomodation/cooperation.

In the end it fell
Nazism had plenty cooporation with plenty of different peoples of different ideologies because thats how peoples work , even Stalin and Hitler for Gods sake . Why not Zionist and Hitler ? The logical map has been drawn , yet you deny the total relation ?

-A big diference here. Lenin´s arguments were based in reason and not in the faith of supernatural. Those religious Jews arguments were based on their faith. If you don´t follow their faith, you cannot consider those arguments true.

Did they get messages from G-D about those facts about those questions of Zionism ? What arguments are you otherwise talking about ? I dont care for their position of pro or anti zionism as an ideology (ofcourse I hold in mind bias in position) , I care for what happened in the holocaust , in relevance to this case . Your logic has gone from Turkey to Hong Kong bro , are you just plain mad ? What the hell has their faith to do with facts that happened ? Why do I have to be have the same faith to support their questioning ? What a joke I am not arguing the legitamacy of zionism according to Jews hear , who cares about that at this point ? What has it to do with anything ?

Before and after the independence, Irgun and Stern were minority

Their quantity wasnt as relevant as their quality . And today their followers rule Israel as Likud (just to sketch an actual relevance on LEHI as well) . BTW the other zionists werent that goodie either , compare it to Hamas-Fatah ......

But how about the mani man David Ben :

In December 1938 Ben-Gurion remarked (a month after the Nazis' pogrom against Germany's Jews, know as Kristallnacht, but two years before the start of the Holocaust):

"If I knew it was possible to save all [Jewish] children of Germany by their transfer to England and only half of them by transferring them to Eretz-Yisrael, I would choose the latter----because we are faced not only with the accounting of these [Jewish] children but also with the historical accounting of the Jewish People." (Righteous Victims, p. 162)


http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre ... ry638.html

Not such a goodie-goodie either

Their program for a Israeli state were not the same of the program of socialist Jews.

Man read up on it please ...... Whats the difference ? How far it stretched ? What a joke

Actually there were and still are many Jews who are against the apartheid system.


Thats great for them , yet they're still sticking around . You dont seem to understand that be it leftist be it rightist be it purple or green or orange its still Zionism in Palestine.

Right, and what would you do with Zionists?


They'd be Gulagged , and forced to rebuild Palestine .


But you know more than me that this war cannot be won.

Yes it can and it will eventually .

Israeli can win (speaking in military terms) but cannot accept the political costs of victory.

No they cant win at all , how are they gonna stop terrorism ? Never , we just found the giants groin .

The Palestinians can eventually inflict enough losses on Israelis to force them give up the occupation, but will never have the power to destroy the "Zionist entity".

You dont need that much power , the red-army conventional warfare days are over buddy , its the age of terror . Have you seen the next generation ? Zionists entity can be brought to anarchy by mass-terrorism , Israel will be left defenceless .

The common ruin seems to be the most possible outcome of such a conflict.


Thing is , its already ruined for the Palestinians .....

Btw: There was contacts and attempts to make alliances with NAZIS from Arab nationalists too, right? Does it make arab nationalism less legitimate?

Yes there was , the Mufti Al Husseini of Jerusalem dealt with some Bosnian Muslims . No it doenst make Arab nationalists less legitimate , it has no relevance and same with Zionism , but you dont seem to understand here once again that I am not trying to protrait Zionism as something illegit in this point of view , Im trying to figure out how it function within Nazism . Id love to figure out how the Mufti functioned exactly as well , I have no problem dealing with facts and history . If the Mufti would have had SS officers in Palestine holocausting everybody there and now there was a state of Palestine based on Nazi-alliance , then indeed it was very very interesting .........

sad thing is , didnt happen . Zionism did .

[Fouad Shoubaki]

I mean Arab nations are not famous for their honesty

And the West is ? lol

It;s not only Euro Foaud don't try to blame it on us solely.

No its not ONLY but its dominatly .

Arabs had a major role to play in the African slave trade

But comon now it was not equal to the Europeans , thats hilarious .

Of course it makes sense, we don't know the exact numbers from what I read 39 million were enslaved, so I added one million to even it out.


Well from what I read what you posted 150 M DIED from enslavement

[nico]

Firstly:

Fredric Wertham claims that 150,000,000 Africans died of the slave trade.


This guy was obviously on speed, or some kind of really bad acid. 150 million! That's impossible, back when the world's population was less then 1 billion, China had around 400 million, India what 200 million. Unless everyone in Africa was transported from the Slave lands then that number is impossible.

And the West is ? lol

No of course not, here in Canada we learn about the bad things as well. I think in the Americas the big "ssssssssh" is the Indian holocaust 30 million dead.

No its not ONLY but its dominatly

Not that dominant, you Arabs had us in close reach. You even had a colony in Congo, Zanzibar, all the way down to Mozambique.

But comon now it was not equal to the Europeans , thats hilarious .


The numbers speak from themselves, in Sudan they are still trading slaves. I think you may be suffering from no way... not us!

[Fouad Shoubaki]

This guy was obviously on speed, or some kind of really bad acid. 150 million! That's impossible, back when the world's population was less then 1 billion, China had around 400 million, India what 200 million. Unless everyone in Africa was transported from the Slave lands then that number is impossible.


Hey I dunno ..........

No of course not, here in Canada we learn about the bad things as well. I think in the Americas the big "ssssssssh" is the Indian holocaust 30 million dead.


In Europe its simply whine about the renaissance untill you're to tired to think about any other historical events . And the Jews are God .

Not that dominant, you Arabs had us in close reach. You even had a colony in Congo, Zanzibar, all the way down to Mozambique

Oh .....Id say Jamaica was alot nicer

The numbers speak from themselves, in Sudan they are still trading slaves.

Yes Im aware of Sudan its sickening really , but its not exactly the same slavery . So if we are bringin other types of slavery then why stop at Sudan today ? How about the rest of the world ? Thats all Euro ....

And what about the Slavic slaves ? Or others ?

I havent seen numbers speak for themselves , I have no credible total amount of victimed slaves yet , please show the calculation .

Also , thats just 1/3 of the question as I mentioned previously , the numbers of all slaves .

I think you may be suffering from no way... not us

Not really , Arabs were very evil peoples with slavery , and still are in Sudan . I have little problems with admitting that , Im not that emotional attached to such identity my friend .

[Gothmog]

Why does a discussion about Zionism have to be actual ? Why does it have to deal with todays Palestinian question ? Why cant we seperate matters ? For instance , I might bring in an anthropological question of Jewish origin , what will you say then ? The same as now ? :

-Look, when you place a thread called "How Nazism and Sionism became each other best friends" you have a clear propaganda purpose, since nothing you are placing here is clear evidence that there WAS an alliance between both ideologies.

I have no point in proving a Zionist-Nazi alliance other than simply for historical fact-gathering . Since when is knowing history a problem ?

-I don´t believe you´re interested only in fact-gathering. The very name of your thread and the symbol you use point to the opposite. You´re interested in disseminating unproven theories about Zionism, withouth clear historical evidence. It´s like Richard Pipes "proving" that communism and nazism were allied because some Bolsheviks had contacts with German reactionaries in early 1920´s or that Lenin was a German agent because the German government allowed him to return to Russia in a German train. If you´re just interesrted in history, so you need to provide us with better evidence.

Yes great well credibility is in the eyes of the beholder , and I do not depend on another mans vision . The whole point of finding something out is that its not perfectly proven yet . If one is stupid enough to link everything together and come up with his imagination of credibility , thats great , but I frankly couldnt give a fuck . All this ad hominem bullpoo is seriously sadning , its the CONTENT that you should judge not the SOURCE nor the MESSENGER .

-Actually the source and the messenger are very important when we are talking about history. We can find all kinds of charlatains here, who are unable to select reliable information. We have people like Rummel, who "proves" that the USSR killed 60 million people, while evidence from the Soviet Archives tell us the opposite. So, when I´m confronted with information from Hummell vs., Getty, who made extensive research on the topic, using the Soviet archives, I will discard the first and believe in the second.

By your judgement I should not talk to Christians like Nico because their credibility is totally screwed since they believe in some invisible space-alien that rules the world through Jesus Christ ? So everything he now says is shit because of this ? What a bullshit man , I suggest you drop by The Logic Cafe for a second

-You are distorting my words. My point is that you shouldn´t use religious arguments in what you don´t believe, to prove a historical point.

And why exactly does it seem like that to you ? Obviously alliances have been proven that fit this trail of thought , yet they are what ....coincidence ? Please tell me exactly why not ?

-These prove simply that people from many ideologies attempted to establish alliance with Nazism, or at least avoid confrontation with them. This is not coincidence, but also don´t imply in identity between that ideologies an Nazism. The very title of your thread is deeply biased.

1)What do you consider acceptable evidence ? And how do you suppose we can get such ? The entire context is lied and pieces of puzzles are found , I want namelists to why cant I get them anywhere ? Why doesnt anybody know ANTHING ?
2)You proof your pre-position , that means it doesnt matter what I bring in on this subject to you its a closed book that you havent even read yet .
3)Arguing seems to be the only thing you are after , I dont want to argue you . I want you to think with me and find answers if you care to know , but you just want to state my incorrectness .

-Archival sources must prove that there were LARGE scale cooperation between the main Zionist factions and not only isolated attempts of contacts between Zionist and Nazism, or some convenient agreements to allow the transfer of some Jews to Palestine.

Whats your point ?

-That there is a large way from a little cooperation to "being the best friens each other"

In the end it fell
Nazism had plenty cooporation with plenty of different peoples of different ideologies because thats how peoples work , even Stalin and Hitler for Gods sake . Why not Zionist and Hitler ? The logical map has been drawn , yet you deny the total relation ?

-Nazism never fulfilled the agreements, they were always wanting more and more. That´s why accomodatoin eventually became impossible.

Their quantity wasnt as relevant as their quality . And today their followers rule Israel as Likud (just to sketch an actual relevance on LEHI as well) . BTW the other zionists werent that goodie either , compare it to Hamas-Fatah ......

-They were in small numbers, which implies in that their proto fascist ideology was weak by 1948 and they had relatively small influence over Israeli politics. They eventually became stronger, because the building of an apartheid like society led the center of Israeli politics closer to their positions. And I do now that the other Zionists were also responsible by the ethnic cleansing of 1948 and also to the dispossession of Arabs after 1967. But in 1948, Irgun and Zionism weren´t the same thing.

Man read up on it please ...... Whats the difference ? How far it stretched ? What a joke

-What is your point now?

Thats great for them , yet they're still sticking around . You dont seem to understand that be it leftist be it rightist be it purple or green or orange its still Zionism in Palestine.

-On this point I agree with you, there is relatively little diference between mainstream left and right in Palestina, but the far left (The communist party and some small groups like Gush Shalom) is diferent, since they defend a two states solutiion as an intermediate step for a unified secular state. That is what you want, right?

They'd be Gulagged , and forced to rebuild Palestine .

-And how will you separate Zionists from non Zionists? DNA test?

No they cant win at all , how are they gonna stop terrorism ? Never , we just found the giants groin .

-They can win if they launch an all out campaign of ethnical cleasing and murdering, using the full power of their armed forces.

You dont need that much power , the red-army conventional warfare days are over buddy , its the age of terror . Have you seen the next generation ? Zionists entity can be brought to anarchy by mass-terrorism , Israel will be left defenceless .

-Hmmmm.....2500 losses for Palestinians and 700 for Israelis...both economies in deep crisis, seems to be a stalemate (or a defeat for both sides?)

Thing is , its already ruined for the Palestinians .....

-That´s a point we agree....

[Fouad Shoubaki]

Well Afelon , we seem to be getting somewhere finally :

Look, when you place a thread called "How Nazism and Sionism became each other best friends" you have a clear propaganda purpose, since nothing you are placing here is clear evidence that there WAS an alliance between both ideologies.

Believe it or not I had little intention of propaganda , but to prove an alliance . I have provided as much facts as I have gathered , and provided a theory that is logically sound surrounding this facts , fitting in the context of zionism . You do not seem to bother to point out how the circumstancial evidance has nothing to do with a system yet to be discovered , you simply dismiss it as un-proved . Hey in the end Im not seeing 6 Million corpses either , but I know millions were there , those couple werent "accidental" .

It´s like Richard Pipes "proving" that communism and nazism were allied because some Bolsheviks had contacts with German reactionaries in early 1920´s or that Lenin was a German agent because the German government allowed him to return to Russia in a German train.

Dude I am a man of dialectics dont compare what Ive put out here as some conspiracy theory , it does not match what went on in the holocaust one bit . It isnt an individuals case , nor do I have a clue who this Richard Pipes is .

Actually the source and the messenger are very important when we are talking about history. We can find all kinds of charlatains here, who are unable to select reliable information. We have people like Rummel, who "proves" that the USSR killed 60 million people, while evidence from the Soviet Archives tell us the opposite. So, when I´m confronted with information from Hummell vs., Getty, who made extensive research on the topic, using the Soviet archives, I will discard the first and believe in the second.


Actually you are not getting the point here , the fact that Rummel lies about USSR deaths has little to do with maybe his opinions on nana's chocolate cakes , or how he feels about the burping in public , nor does it have anything to do with his deity-worshipping in the weekends in church .

The content may be led by a messenger , it may be from a specific source , but its validity never depends on either of them . That is called ad hominem and in whatever science you work , if you do not apply such basic rules as this one , this is considered a joke .

-You are distorting my words. My point is that you shouldn´t use religious arguments in what you don´t believe, to prove a historical point.

What are the religious arguments ? And how is MY specific position in whatever involved in this ? I point out zionists questionings dealing with NAZI cooperation not with religious conviction . I also point out zionist psychological struggle and origin of ideology . What you accuse me of I do not do .

-These prove simply that people from many ideologies attempted to establish alliance with Nazism, or at least avoid confrontation with them. This is not coincidence, but also don´t imply in identity between that ideologies an Nazism. The very title of your thread is deeply biased.


My title is biased in what way ? That I assume alliance ? Duh , that is my entire point . Thing is however , that I dont see you how you are refuting a zionist system that is ideologically allied in interests . Come on now do I have to repeat what has been quoted here ? They agreed on the most important things , the existance of a Jewish race , the naturality of anti-semitism and that there was no place for Jews in Europe .

the
Hitler government vigorously supported Zionism and Jewish emigration to
Palestine from 1933 until 1940-1941

Before the war there WAS serious cooperation , and there was reason of mutual interest to do so . Nazi Germany didnt start with the holocaust , and things started turning in 42 . Before that period there IS proof(Mildenstein for instance) and logical possibility and motivation .

-Archival sources must prove that there were LARGE scale cooperation between the main Zionist factions and not only isolated attempts of contacts between Zionist and Nazism, or some convenient agreements to allow the transfer of some Jews to Palestine.

And who's got Archival acces into such things ? Are there even archives ? I dont think so .

Anyways , like I said ...the question that is really to be researched is within the holocaust itself , again I repeat it is very , very obvious what happened prior to it (alkthough additional info is always welcomed ofcourse) and after it . Please read some things I have already posted here : http://www.freearabvoice.org/naziZionistCooperation.htm . Like I said Im trying to figure things out , help and opinion is appreciated , but only if its actually based on something . Not just denyal because you cant have for it to be so .


That there is a large way from a little cooperation to "being the best friens each other"


Yes well before the holocaust the coorporation wasnt quite little .

But in 1948, Irgun and Zionism weren´t the same thing.


In relation to Zionism as having been established they were the very same relevantly to the point of Zionism essentially in Ideology .

What is your point now?


That nit doesnt matter since all of them were hardcore zionists one way or the other , all of them ethnic cleansed , that one wanting this much and land and another that much is totally not relevant .

Nazism never fulfilled the agreements, they were always wanting more and more. That´s why accomodatoin eventually became impossible.


As far as Zionism goes , does it need to be till the end ? Obviously the zionists lost out on Hitler since Hitler destroyed them as much as possible , things changed after 42 , but before that ?

That is what you want, right?


Yes but its not possible ever , its gonna holocaust the Israeli's eventually .
Far to idealistic for Zionists to go for , and it goes against Zionism itself since Zionism is Jewish state .

-And how will you separate Zionists from non Zionists? DNA test?


U obviously point to Jews not Zionists , also you should know DNA tests wouldnt work as you think since a German Jew and German Gentile are quite identical racially , for a large part . There aint even an Ashkenazim race , lets not even start on a Jewish one .

No as far as Zionism goes we have 2 kinds , internal and external . Internal is very easy to detect , you can find them here :



Hey the IDF does even the identification-job for you , since non-Zionist religious Jews arent included , neither are children nor Arabs . Rest is all IDF

As for the ones in USA , just check their bankaccounts . Sure the line will fade between zionist and capitalist but hey in the end ....... who cares

-They can win if they launch an all out campaign of ethnical cleasing and murdering, using the full power of their armed forces.


Not really because the more Palestinians they genocide the more become militant and also the more Arabs in general become involved . Even if they would kill all Palestinians , then there Arabs left who assault them , they cant kill us all . We're just toomuch

Hmmmm.....2500 losses for Palestinians and 700 for Israelis...both economies in deep crisis, seems to be a stalemate (or a defeat for both sides?)


Thats the best sofar , I dont call that defeat thats pay-back time . Sure there is loosing , but when you're used to have diaspora's and genocides 700 Israeli deads is amazing and 2500 losses isnt that bad .

Also what you said on both economies ........ you were joking right ? Israeli economy isnt quite national , and Palestinian economy isnt really existent . What , national product Al Aqsa scarfs and militant muzikvideos ?

Nah man ........ Palestine cannot loose , not anymore . It has nothing left to loose , the kids are gone crazy in 10 years Israel is in serious trouble you remember my words . And in 20 years shit will get ugly in NYC , times change empires fall ........ thats just the way it goes .

[Fouad Shoubaki]

In 1983 Lenni Brenner wrote the book Zionism in the Age of the Dictators

If any of you like myself care for understanding Zionism in historcal context including their Nazi-history , this book is a MUST read .

Also check out : http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html

There are six selections re Zionism's relationship to anti-Semitism and racism prior to Hitler. The 51 documents, including 35 letters, memos, articles, and reports by Zionists, are from the Hitler era and after. Seven are by Nazis, most notably Eichmann's memoir, written in Argentina, on Hungarian collaborator RA<<zso Kasztner. Five of the six and 43 of the 51 are complete. The rest are extensive excerpts from important reports

[/b]

[Gothmog]

In 1983 Lenni Brenner wrote the book Zionism in the Age of the Dictators

If any of you like myself care for understanding Zionism in historcal context including their Nazi-history , this book is a MUST read .

Also check out : http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html

There are six selections re Zionism's relationship to anti-Semitism and racism prior to Hitler. The 51 documents, including 35 letters, memos, articles, and reports by Zionists, are from the Hitler era and after. Seven are by Nazis, most notably Eichmann's memoir, written in Argentina, on Hungarian collaborator RA<<zso Kasztner. Five of the six and 43 of the 51 are complete. The rest are extensive excerpts from important reports

[/b]

-Now you start to make sense, instead of a crazy Orthodox rabbi you´re placing here a reference from a serious historian and journalist who is adamantly opposed to Holocaust revisionism. I will shut up my mouth until I read this book. Had you placed this link in your first post, many troubles would heve been avoided!

[Fouad Shoubaki]

This proves your misjudgement on relevance of the Orthodoxy of those Jews .

Good thing you've decided to read his book as it shows your interest . But please , this isnt the first non-religious link that has been placed here .

Anyways , all this exactly proves that you should never judge something by its source nor messenger .

In the meantime , I wanted to mention something on the following link that I have posted previously :

http://www.iyp.org/polish/history/antyp ... n_101.html

Zionist Federation of Germany sent a memorandum of support to the Nazi Party on 21.06.1933. In it the Federation noted:

I wonder about a few things :

*On the foundation of the new [Nazi] state which has established the principle of race, we wish so to fit our community into the total structure, so that for us, too, in the sphere assigned to us, fruitful activity for the Fatherland is possible....

This proves acceptance of Nazism on an international level by Zionism in purpose of fullfillment of Zionist ideals . The acceptance of Nazism is an Ideological one based on the anti-semitical understanding of race as imposed by Himmler .

*World Zionist Organization Congress in 1933 defeated a resolution calling for action against Hitler by a vote of 240 to 43 .

This proves the acceptance of the previous point , and therefor the peacefull dealing with the Nazi's , not otherwise possible then through collaboration .

*Mussolini set up squadrons of the Revisionist Zionist youth movement, Betar, in black shirts in emulation of his own Fascist bands.

So the movement actually had fascist uniforms ? Yes ? Also proved by Jabotinsky ? Is it denyable that the movement IN EUROPE before 1948 had major influence in Zionism ? Who were the fighters ?

*When Menachem Begin became chief of Betar, he preferred the brown shirts of the Hitler gangs, a uniform Begin and Betar members wore to all meetings and rallies - at which they greeted each other, opened and closed meetings with the fascist salute.

Dit Begin wore Nazi Uniforms and perfomed Fascist salutes ? Can we find picture on this ? Menechim Begin was Israeli PM and chief of Irgun , his history is highly relevant . If we can capture Begin in a Nazi-Uniform , I say we have a winner . (not that it would be necesarry for the entire package , but that would be an even nicer one than Vlady's fascist uniform)

*Consequently, the Zionists brought Baron Von Mildenstein of the S.S. Security Service to Palestine for a six-month visit in support of Zionism. This visit led to a twelve-part report by Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's Minister of Propaganda, in Der Angriff (The Assault) in 1934 praising Zionism

Clearly Goebbels had alot of influence on the masses , and its the masses who have been victimized by the holocaust . Zionism ofcourse would have been propagated (as I already much suspected because what other Jewish things would the propagate ? And the Ewige Jude was a YID not a Hebrew) , and ofcourse it shows the Nazi-Zionist good relationship , and a different turn on the final solution , I want to understand the flip between collaboration and resistance , as I suspect was in 1942 with the Great Deportation .

*Goebbels ordered a medallion struck with the Swastika on one side, and on the other, the Zionist Star of David.

Obviously this is seriously disgusting , do we have those somewhere ? Where ? I hope that there are more peoples like me who want to find out and can help me look for evidence , for whatever motives one might have , political religious scientific or whatever .

*In May 1935, Reinhardt Heydrich, the chief of the S.S. Security Service, wrote an article in which he separated Jews into "two categories." The Jews he favored were the Zionists: "Our good wishes together with our official good will go with them."

This would prove my theory on 2 seperate Jewish classes within the anti-semitical system of the Nazi's that had its end in holocaust .

*In 1937, the Labor "socialist" Zionist militia, the Haganah (founded by Jabotinsky) sent an agent (Feivel Polkes) to Berlin offering to spy for the S.S. Security Service in exchange for the release of Jewish wealth for Zionist colonization. Adolf Eichmann was invited to Palestine as the guest of the Haganah.

*[i]In 1937, the Labor "socialist" Zionist militia, the Haganah (founded by Jabotinsky) sent an agent (Feivel Polkes) to Berlin offering to spy for the S.S. Security Service in exchange for the release of Jewish wealth for Zionist colonization. Adolf Eichmann was invited to Palestine as the guest of the Haganah.

Ok first of all what has Vlady Jabo to do with Labor ? He surely didnt found it , he found Irgun . So what exactly was this between Irgun and Labor ? I know the differences would be highly irellevant ideologically (since they're both militant zionist) , but where they on more fields identical , as for instance structural ? Who knows more about this ?

Obviously Eichman (the DEPORTATION-MAN) being a Haganah guest is completely prooving the attitude toward Non-Zionist Jewry Davide Ben proposes . Jewish wealth release would also be a point you cant take lightly , it would emphasize the relation . I always assumed the rich escaped with their money , but those who didnt could get their action going this way .

*Polkes informed Eichmann:
"Jewish nationalist circles were very pleased with the radical German policy, since the strength of the Jewish population in Palestine would be so far increased thereby that in the foreseeable future the Jews could reckon upon numerical superiority over the Arabs."

And Polkes was Haganah , this prooves at least logical and reasonable points for Haganah approval of German anti-semitism .

*Chaim Weizmann, the Zionist leader who had arranged the Balfour Declaration and was to become the first president of Israel, made this Zionist policy very explicit:
"The hopes of Europe's six million Jews are cantered on emigration. I was asked: 'Can you bring six million Jews to Palestine?' I replied, 'No.' ... From the depths of the tragedy I want to save ... young people [for Palestine]. The old ones will pass. They will bear their fate or they will not. They are dust, economic and moral dust in a cruel world. ... Only the branch of the young shall survive. They have to accept it."[Chaim Weizmann reporting to the Zionist Congress in 1937 on his testimony before the Peel Commission in London, July 1937. Cited in Yahya, p. 55.]

This proves the consciousness of the natural selection proces I proposed . OMG this thinking is so fatalistic , and from a psychological/philosophical point of view I can link it with todays struggle for Palestine . I gues its our turn now .......

Yitzhak Gruenbaum, the chairperson of the committee set up by the Zionists, nominally to investigate the condition of European Jews, said:

"When they come to us with two plans - the rescue of the masses of Jews in Europe or the redemption of the land - I vote, without a second thought, for the redemption of the land. The more said about the slaughter of our people, the greater the minimization of our efforts to strengthen and promote the Hebraisation of the land. If there would be a possibility today of buying packages of food with the money of the Karen Hayesod [United Jewish Appeal] to send it through Lisbon, would we do such a thing? No. And once again no!" [Yitzhak Gruenbaum was chairperson of the Jewish Agency's Rescue Committee. Excerpted from a speech made in 1943. Ibid., p. 56.]


Proving the ideological underlining that was obvious , land is worth more than people .

I think all this pretty much lays out exactly as my theory proposed , my deepest question lies in the practical-ghetto action . What did happen in the Ghetto's ............. ?

[Gothmog]

U obviously point to Jews not Zionists , also you should know DNA tests wouldnt work as you think since a German Jew and German Gentile are quite identical racially , for a large part . There aint even an Ashkenazim race , lets not even start on a Jewish one .

-I was kidding about DNA tests....since all Jew who lives in Israel is Zionist, you will send all to Gulag? Do you want an end to Apartheid or Apartheid mirrored?

As for the ones in USA , just check their bankaccounts . Sure the line will fade between zionist and capitalist but hey in the end ....... who cares

-Now it seems YOU are kidding.....

Not really because the more Palestinians they genocide the more become militant and also the more Arabs in general become involved . Even if they would kill all Palestinians , then there Arabs left who assault them , they cant kill us all . We're just toomuch

-Do you think Arab governments have the power or the will to move only one finger to stop Israel?

[Fouad Shoubaki]

since all Jew who lives in Israel is Zionist, you will send all to Gulag? Do you want an end to Apartheid or Apartheid mirrored?


Not every Jew who lives in israel is a Zionists , there are Jews who have lived in Israel before Zionism and untill today do not acknowledge the state of Israel (they dont have to go into IDF either ) .

Basically the deal is simple , everybody who is willing to live peacefully in a non-zionist state , is welcome to support society and become an honorable citizen of an horonable state .

Unfortunatly this is never happening , and if I have to choose beteween 2 aparheids Id go with the new one . That is why I would support a Hamas-state rather than a zionist state , in todays actuality . Im sure Im changing my mind after such is established and we are 50 years further , If Im not dead yet . Its a matter of a moral comitment with the oppressed in the dialectical context .

-Now it seems YOU are kidding.....

Not really I would happily put 99% of every Amerikan citizen who has more than 1M $ as personal wealth in a Gulag and let them work till they die

So really ........ who cares ? zionist , capitalist , imperialist > Gulag for them .

Do you think Arab governments have the power or the will to move only one finger to stop Israel?

In my point , it was not the Arab governments that would provide for guerilla warfare , especially not on the foreground through conventional public methods .

Israel can ethnic cleanse what they want nobody can stop them , and the Arab governments wouldnt really cry over the peoples dont worry .
Thing is however , that as long as they dont have a super big-brother Stalinistic police state with only 1 recognizable (racially) peoples who are considered legitimate , they cant stop terrorism .

Nowadays the resistance dresses up like Jews , they can never stop Arabs or any Muslims or Christians or whatever trying to sabotage and terrorize their society , not even if they kill all Palestinians . We have 300 M Arabs worldwide and 1.3B Muslims , every dead Palestinian is replaced by 2 non-Palestinian Muslims . The harder the struggle , the more untity . We have seen the evidence for this amongst the Jews themselves , it doesnt work any different for the Palestinian struggle .

Anyways Im not saying they can conquer Israel , and conventionally they cant even be bothered . But they sure as hell can be brought to anarchy into a guerilla-war , and that can be one war that can seriously bring down their power in sofar that they are no longer viewed as a nation , but as rebel-groups . The Palestinians are ready for this , the Israeli arent by far . They would be if it was still LEHI and IRGUN , now we got our own little LEHI and IRGUN . 100 bombs a day makes the Zionist go away

[ihavenoname]

Mr. Fouad Shoubaki-


you have stated that you would like to see a secular state in Modern day Israel-....


Do you believe then that the Arab world itself shoud become secular???

Meaning Saudi Arabia should become secular and a non-religious state>??


Why can there be over 25 distinctly Muslim countries and no room for one Jewish one?

[Demosthenes]

Dont waste your time noname, he showed up trolled for a little while then left, I'm not even sure if he posted anywhere else...??

Anyway like all trolls, when left high and dry, he seemed to fade into the Middle Eastern sunset...