Demosthenes : To conclude trolling from not posting is not logical because there are a variety of reasons one can have not to post and the exact relevance of non-posting is lacking in the definition of a troll .
malachi151 wrote:Well, a lot of those quotes are garbage
I was hoping you could tell me which ones exactly and how they are to be considered garbage .
First it is important to know 2 things that , of which one I did not realize myself completely when I started this thread months ago . Zionism was not a co-herent movement , ideologically speaking all it has in common is the creation of a zionist state . Apart from this the politics revolving zionism adapt to the identity of the zionist host , this offered zionism the opportunity to maximize it's common goal .
Secondly what should be remembered is that zionism was never a peoples movement , that it became after the holocaust . Oftenly zionism tended (and still does) to speak for the Jewish peoples , reality is that not even now , let alone then , there is talk of correct representation .
The majority of Jews that were killed by the Nazis were not German Jews, they were Polish and Russian Jews, the Germans were not very open to the idea of killing German Jews in fact, it created a lot of controversy and did not happen until the very end of the war.
In 1942 Himmler presented the Final Solution , interestingly enough the Jewish Zionist "resistance" did not exist
within the Reich untill after the great deportation in that same year , followed by the Warsaw uprising .
I do not see what you are trying to say by mentioning that most victimized Jews were not German . They were on new German territory were they not ?
The Germans had real plans to help relocate Jews to Palastein, however since the war most people claim that those were just code words for extermination of the Jews, but this is in fact not true.
Indeed it is not true , they had very genuine plans for Zionists , even though Hitler himself never liked them since he felt they would not truly become a new peoples but just have a head-quater in their new state , make them more powerfull globally . If we would replace the word "Jew" with "Zionist" we see that Hitler was absolutely right on this one since Paul Wolfowitz , Richard Perle & Douglas Feith aren't Tel Aviv residents yet .
But there was a genuine support within the nazi-system especially with the SS for this transition the Jew
would make and made in Israel . Zionism is a psychological proces , and the result of it made the Jews look as re-born in the eyes of many nazi's . Nationalism was somuch more important to nazi's than actual race , this was not different for the Jewish question .
The Germans decided to commit mass murder of Jews after the start of WWII because according ot them "the Jews started the war". Thier view was that Britain and France declared war becuase of "the influence fo the Jews". I think they honestly believed this, and in fact there are elements of truth to it, though not entirely.
Perhaps in the far distant they might have had a point , certainly as far as Zionism goes . Did Brittish "Judea" not declare war on Germany in 1933 , did Vladimir Jabotinsky not call for the complete destruction of Germany in the same period of time ? Zionism outside of the Reich fought the Reich by all means that it could , and may have had quite an influence on the decleration of war on Germany . But perhaps that deserves it's own thread .
But yes, the origional plan from the start was that the Germans were pro-Zionist, sort of but not really, they were in favor of getting Jews out of Germany and to Israel and thus they supported Zionism in that way, but they still hated Jews. They didn't like Zionism, they simply thought it was a good way to get Jews out of Germany.
No I think this is where you are wrong , common share of interest (Jewish migration away to Palestine) there are other grounds on which Zionists and Nazis
within the Reich allied . Both grounds reflect in the position of LEHI as they offered military collaboration in 1941 .
1) Nationalism
2) Anti-semitism
One more or less follows from the other , I will elaborate my arguments elsewhere later on , but important to understand is the fact that zionism originally was pure anti-semitism , but from a self-critic perspective . The zionist desired a Jewish homeland because they considered the Jewish peoples in Europe a dispicable peoples , which resulted in their
agreement on anti-semitism with the anti-semites . Their idea was that through nationalization (which involved cultural revival , Hebrew etc) the Jew would be cured , and that was something the nazi's admired . The Aryan and the Hebrew were of the same kind , and this share brought many nazi's and zionists on an ideological level , which as I mentioned reflects perfectly in Stern's proposal to Hitler.
Cooperation between the new Germany and a renewed folkish-national Hebraium
This attitude shows as well with the head of the SS Jewish Department Von Mildenstein , as he speaks of the zionists :
The soil has reformed him and his kind in a decade. This new Jew will be a new people.
The common hate for the Yid and the common love for the Hebrew have played an important role in their collaboration , along the shared interests of a Jew-free Germany .
According to the Germans it was the Jews who were the Satanic ones; funny how they both call each other Satanic.
I think everything would have turned out just fine if the Nazis did not claim representation of the German peoples and the Zionists of the Jewish peoples .