Ok Ok , My bad
I obviously had the illusion I could have a decent discussion with purpose of knowledge in this sprecific "history" forum about some historical issues . Obviously I was wrong
It seems that non-stop almost these things cannot be discussed at least in a seperate atmosphere apart from :
So what is your point in proving that Zionism and Nazism were friends? Does it increase or decrease the crimes Israel has been commiting? To discover an alliance between South Africans and NAZIS (which, bte, I don´t know if existed) would turn apartheid worse than it really was? My point is that, when you raise this conspiracies theories with little documental support, you weakens your point, which, otherwise, is quite valid!
Why does a discussion about Zionism have to be actual ? Why does it have to deal with todays Palestinian question ? Why cant we seperate matters ? For instance , I might bring in an anthropological question of Jewish origin , what will you say then ? The same as now ? :
´Why instead don´t you tell us something about the segregation policies of Israel or about the legitimacy of the methods used by Palestinian groups (which I support to some extent-see the Topic "Meanwhile in the land of Apartheid))?
I cannot have interest for other aspects of Judaism and Zionism other than todays political actuality ? What bullshit is this ? This is history thread , your thread is rightfully NOT here , so why do you try to shift my object of study into something that its not , while its perfect where it is right now ? In HISTORY .
I dont care that you support the side I would support , that is not whats in question here . God cant I just want to find things out ? Does everything have to be todays news ?
Just mix it all up into one point of view .....thats not how it works , and it doesnt promote objectivity one bit , not even close .
I have no point in proving a Zionist-Nazi alliance other than simply for historical fact-gathering . Since when is knowing history a problem ?
This will be important, because sooner or latter you will start another topic on that question, but then your insistence in those unproven theories will make you lose credibility even among those who are opposed to Israeli policies.
Yes great well credibility is in the eyes of the beholder , and I do not depend on another mans vision . The whole point of finding something out is that its not perfectly proven yet . If one is stupid enough to link everything together and come up with his imagination of credibility , thats great , but I frankly couldnt give a fuck . All this ad hominem bullpoo is seriously sadning , its the CONTENT that you should judge not the SOURCE nor the MESSENGER .
By your judgement I should not talk to Christians like Nico because their credibility is totally screwed since they believe in some invisible space-alien that rules the world through Jesus Christ ?
So everything he now says is shit because of this ? What a bullshit man , I suggest you drop by
The Logic Cafe for a second
Let me get Ad-Hominem for a second as well then : Before even checking out that thread by what you have stated on this thread only I am really worried that a dude like yourself is defending my brothers struggle of Palestine .
So lets get back to the point :
you had some right wing Jewish thugs which tried an alliance with NAZIS, but it seems that alliance didn´t go too far.
And why exactly does it seem like that to you ? Obviously alliances have been proven that fit this trail of thought , yet they are what ....coincidence ? Please tell me exactly why not ?
Even if you had better evidence on this point (and you don´t)
we still could argued that
1)What do you consider acceptable evidence ? And how do you suppose we can get such ? The entire context is lied and pieces of puzzles are found , I want namelists to why cant I get them anywhere ? Why doesnt anybody know ANTHING ?
2)You proof your pre-position , that means it doesnt matter what I bring in on this subject to you its a closed book that you havent even read yet .
3)Arguing seems to be the only thing you are after , I dont want to argue you . I want you to think with me and find answers if you care to know , but you just want to state my incorrectness .
among all ideologies, there were elements that tried an accomodation or even an alliance with NAZIS, including Stalinist USSR and the Western democracies (remember Munich?).
Whats your point ?
Still, in the end, Nazism proved to be extremely refractory to any kind of accomodation/cooperation.
In the end it fell
Nazism had plenty cooporation with plenty of different peoples of different ideologies because thats how peoples work , even Stalin and Hitler for Gods sake . Why not Zionist and Hitler ? The logical map has been drawn , yet you deny the total relation ?
-A big diference here. Lenin´s arguments were based in reason and not in the faith of supernatural. Those religious Jews arguments were based on their faith. If you don´t follow their faith, you cannot consider those arguments true.
Did they get messages from G-D about those facts about those questions of Zionism ? What arguments are you otherwise talking about ? I dont care for their position of pro or anti zionism as an ideology (ofcourse I hold in mind bias in position) , I care for what happened in the holocaust , in relevance to this case . Your logic has gone from Turkey to Hong Kong bro , are you just plain mad ? What the hell has their faith to do with facts that happened ? Why do I have to be have the same faith to support their questioning ? What a joke
I am not arguing the legitamacy of zionism according to Jews hear , who cares about that at this point ? What has it to do with anything ?
Before and after the independence, Irgun and Stern were minority
Their quantity wasnt as relevant as their quality . And today their followers rule Israel as Likud (just to sketch an actual relevance on LEHI as well) . BTW the other zionists werent that goodie either , compare it to Hamas-Fatah ......
But how about the mani man David Ben :
In December 1938 Ben-Gurion remarked (a month after the Nazis' pogrom against Germany's Jews, know as Kristallnacht, but two years before the start of the Holocaust):
"If I knew it was possible to save all [Jewish] children of Germany by their transfer to England and only half of them by transferring them to Eretz-Yisrael, I would choose the latter----because we are faced not only with the accounting of these [Jewish] children but also with the historical accounting of the Jewish People." (Righteous Victims, p. 162)
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre ... ry638.html
Not such a goodie-goodie either
Their program for a Israeli state were not the same of the program of socialist Jews.
Man read up on it please ...... Whats the difference ? How far it stretched ? What a joke
Actually there were and still are many Jews who are against the apartheid system.
Thats great for them , yet they're still sticking around . You dont seem to understand that be it leftist be it rightist be it purple or green or orange its still Zionism in Palestine.
Right, and what would you do with Zionists?
They'd be Gulagged , and forced to rebuild Palestine .
But you know more than me that this war cannot be won.
Yes it can and it will eventually .
Israeli can win (speaking in military terms) but cannot accept the political costs of victory.
No they cant win at all , how are they gonna stop terrorism ? Never , we just found the giants groin .
The Palestinians can eventually inflict enough losses on Israelis to force them give up the occupation, but will never have the power to destroy the "Zionist entity".
You dont need that much power , the red-army conventional warfare days are over buddy , its the age of terror . Have you seen the next generation ? Zionists entity can be brought to anarchy by mass-terrorism , Israel will be left defenceless .
The common ruin seems to be the most possible outcome of such a conflict.
Thing is , its already ruined for the Palestinians .....
Btw: There was contacts and attempts to make alliances with NAZIS from Arab nationalists too, right? Does it make arab nationalism less legitimate?
Yes there was , the Mufti Al Husseini of Jerusalem dealt with some Bosnian Muslims . No it doenst make Arab nationalists less legitimate , it has no relevance and same with Zionism , but you dont seem to understand here once again that I am not trying to protrait Zionism as something illegit in this point of view , Im trying to figure out how it function within Nazism . Id love to figure out how the Mufti functioned exactly as well , I have no problem dealing with facts and history . If the Mufti would have had SS officers in Palestine holocausting everybody there and now there was a state of Palestine based on Nazi-alliance , then indeed it was very very interesting .........
sad thing is , didnt happen . Zionism did .