[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Oy!! No one told me Enver Hoxha's avatar was added.

Why do we defend Stalin?? We have already answered that question over and over. The question is...if we told you would it make a difference??? Whatever we say...you will say "ah those appartment buildings with nuclear waste on them!!". So how can we have a discussion...if your replies are such?? How can we have a discussion if after we show you evidence of the exact number of officers arrested...you simply reject them and continue to believe in some astronomically high number.

Clearly...it is you who is stuborn...not any of us.

You start with the opinion that Stalin was evil...therefore anything we say won't change that opinion.

But history isn't about being subjective...its about being objective

[Kov]

Yes, but I can be more educated on making my opinion if I would understand why people go to great lengths to hate him

Take it from my perspective, my familiy and many around mine suffered, so it is to little surprise that my opinions are such as they are. I know why everyone hates him... but know I wish to know why people like him.

It is also hard to say that since ones mind is set on one thing, he will not cahge. Take me again, I was raised communist and was until a while ago, when I finialy ralized that it was not the system for me.


So please, can you tell me? That was the only reason I started this god forsaken thread. Not to impose war, but for common opinion. I may have refered to him as a bad person... but I was not the one that did any insulting.

[Din]

this post will probably destroy my opinion in this forum, but here goes....
I am 15 years old, but for my age i am fairly mature and instead of immidatley going "commie" Bashing i decided to go and take a look at "the other side" i did the same with facist germany a year ago, at present i am looking at communism, "stalinism" etc. etc.
i shall take this moment to apologise for the slightly stupid posts i made on the communist board but neway.........
this argument i have found paticularly interesting as most of the quotes, "evidence from soviet archives" (which were opened recently and should prove interesting reading when a english text version is written) errr well "Comrade General Kov" is basing his entire argument on a BBC documentry shown earlier this year, i found this documentry fasinating and also slightly strange as it opened rather disgustingly describing Stalin's heart attack......

by the time doctors had reached him he had had his heart attack at least 12 hours ago as he lay there soaked in his own urine

or something like that
i thought well this might be "sexed up" for western propaganda so i did some investigation and found that yes one "A.I ryov" i believe it is spelt was executed, his case finally got to the board 2 weeks after his execution such is the speed of the departments in the USSR
one thing i cannot find is evidence of "death parties" to confirm or deny their existence of just going around and saying the sentence and denying the right to appeal
i find evidence of people reading out the sentence and allowing the right to appeal, which people wrote letters and requesting their right for their case to be investigated, i find evidence of the 12,000 people being released, but again i can't find evidence of radioactive waste being mixed in concrete to build houses for the poor, they have siberia for dumping radioctive waste in, god knows siberia is usefull for little else.... but if there is i am sure that the poor would prefer to be a little green than to be sleeping on russian streets.


so "Comrade General Kov" unfortuantely i do not believe you, in any way, stop using BBC documentries and their peices of information and actually start making a real argument....
but neway..... please stop using BBC documentries to argue with as eventually your argument will be torn to shreads on this forum
general comrade Kov's argument>> <<< tovarish Spetznatz's argument lol
i think i have done enough and this post will either....
1) completely destroy my opinion as i am 15
2) make my opinion a bit more worthwhile on this forum

[Din]

oh one last thing i forgot to mention Stalin was NOT your bog standard Dictator (executing his advisors left, right and centre) but first made his argument or plan then listened to other party members plans ( people knew if their plan was liked because he would sit their smoking his pipe smoothing his moustache and not interupting) then he would do either of three things....
1)use his own plan
2) use another party members plan
3) incorporate the best of the two plans creating a third that usually ended up working rather sucessfully.
you see a normal dictators advisors wouldn't speak out as they would be executed almost immediately, most of stalin's advisors survived and have since died of natural causes, because most have died during the Cold War the western propaganda machine got to work claiming that he had had them executed (a couple were, i don't deny it) but stalin was not your usual dictator, people could immediatley dismiss a dictatorship ran by a man called Iosef Stalin, but NO satlin's dictatorship has it's own catagorey "STALINISM" i think we can see that he isn't your normal dictator as he dragged a country that was 100 years behind up to the present in just 20 years, i think that really says what Stalin was like

[Kov]

"BBC documentry shown earlier this year"

""Comrade General Kov" unfortuantely i do not believe you, in any way, stop using BBC documentries and their peices of information and actually start making a real argument.... but neway..... please stop using BBC documentries to argue with as eventually your argument will be torn to shreads on this forum"

You "believeing" me is of no consern to me, what so ever, and is irelivant to this topic.

Firstly, thanks for finding the source of my "reserch", which I randomly found on the web. I scanned over me old posts and saw some points to your argument, but I saw others which contridicted you. I studied in Russian schools, I do not how much Russian you know, but I would think it would be damn hard for you to read any of those texts.

Simply put, it is not practical to post them here.

Secondly, most of the time I used one specific object in my argument that should in all respects go for more than just whispered word. Comrade, did you by chance live in the USSR during Stalins Perges? Of all the people here, none of us did. The differance between me and those? The fact that I have people that lived through that time, people I talk to, speak to, visit, and see.

Every time I talk of this, I am thrown some verbal fact or some un suported pledge, but in the end the question remains... if the USA's propaganda is so bad about the USSR... then in theory the same is true in the USSR about the USA.

So everyone there hated the US, and where taught to hate it, etc... How then, can people that lived during stalins time, hate him so much, talk of all the things they witnessed and heard about, and not be respected for what they lived through? I have come to the conclusion that this is simply the way peopel are... non respectfull of the past and careless to look back upon other examples, thus causing horrible things... ie WW2, Vietnam etc...

That has been the center of my argument, and no matter what you call those people, and no matter how "perfect" the evidance anyone digs up is, it is arogant to consider those people not a source. Also, keep in mind that many of the same Stalin suporters get their information from the same BBC translation... simple because it is there.

" i think we can see that he isn't your normal dictator as he dragged a country that was 100 years behind up to the present in just 20 years, i think that really says what Stalin was like"

There is a term in Russia "Ustroiena na Castah"... or "Built on Bones" Many places in Russia are that way... Lenningrad... those oddly named Locks connecting the Volga and something elce...

[The Cactuarian Emperor]

stalin expanded russia. And thats good. Even if it cost millions of lives......

[Comrade Juanito]

i agree with the emperor, he also modernize it.


Though it did cost a lot of lives..........

[Freedom]

stalin expanded russia. And thats good. Even if it cost millions of lives......

Woah thats super really super, so was Hitler justified for killing all those people even though he helped modernise germany and make it a super power? Jesus at least Tovarish Spetnaz attempts to cover up all the shit Stalin did or didnt do, whatever, admitting to the successful slaughter of millions of people not in Wartime and sayings its cool because "he modernised the country" is the most disgusting thing i've ever heard. So was Pol Pots justified because he put Cambodia on the Map? Was Idi Amin justified because people around thought he was a good guy? Were the Japanese Justified in all their slaughters because they stuck it to the American pig dogs? Gawd will you grow up...Genocide is not a good thing...if you are pro-Stalin at least attempt to cover it up...not trying to justify it by saying "well he modernised the country and umm expanded the borders...ummm...that was worth a few millions lives...right?" Gawd.

I have no comment on whether or not Stalin was a good guy, my position is know on this i'm sure, but admitting to the murders and then trying to justify by whatever ignorant crap about "modernising" makes me sick...

End Rant

[Nox]

The best thing Uncle Joe ever did was to hide during WW II and let Zukov et al defeat Germany. Unfortunately, after the war, Uncle took all the bows. Too bad he didn't take the bullets.

Nox

[Kov]

"stalin expanded russia. And thats good. Even if it cost millions of lives......"

I respect your opinion, but I am quite shure that most families in Russia will say otherwise . Even for you, how would you like your life for such a cause...

"The best thing Uncle Joe ever did was to hide during WW II and let Zukov et al defeat Germany. Unfortunately, after the war, Uncle took all the bows. Too bad he didn't take the bullets."

Thanks for the comment, but do not try and start a flame war. Your opinion is off topic in this debate. Also, my aplauds to Freedom for a good post, my side or not. Finaly... I am still at a loss to my original question...

[Siberian Fox]

[Test post, (was getting "no posts exist for this topic" error).]

[Nox]

"The best thing Uncle Joe ever did was to hide during WW II and let Zukov et al defeat Germany. Unfortunately, after the war, Uncle took all the bows. Too bad he didn't take the bullets."

Thanks for the comment, but do not try and start a flame war. Your opinion is off topic in this debate.

I'm not trying to start a flame war. I gave Uncle Joe credit for what I thought he did right. I also gave Uncle Joe credit for what I thought he did wrong. You, my friend, are too willing to give one of history's greatest mass murderers a free pass and at the same time extol a bunch of non-existant virtues that you are ascribing to him. Then you try to hide behind a cheap cop-out by accusing me of trying to start a flame war.

This is false.

Joe Stalin was a thug. A murdering, self-centered thug who destroyed millions. Russia was drug along at an astronomically huge price in terms of misery, suffering, and death.

Off topic? Hardly.

You appear to only want to hear wonderful and opulent things about your hero. This I will not do. Historical objectivity prevents this.

Now if you want to flame ... be my guest. I will ignore it however. If you want intelligent intercourse ... come on down (as they say on The Price is Right).

Nox

[Kov]

"I'm not trying to start a flame war. I gave Uncle Joe credit for what I thought he did right. I also gave Uncle Joe credit for what I thought he did wrong. You, my friend, are too willing to give one of history's greatest mass murderers a free pass and at the same time extol a bunch of non-existant virtues that you are ascribing to him. Then you try to hide behind a cheap cop-out by accusing me of trying to start a flame war."

Neg., that is your asumption. You say that the best thing Uncle Joe ever did was hide during WW2. Cowrdace, in many peoples books is a sign of weekness, and thus pointing it out would impy an insult. This is my logic behind this. Also, you are targeting an American patriot with that reply, thus asking for a more heartful reply... now is this not a way for bushing for heated comments?

"Joe Stalin was a thug. A murdering, self-centered thug who destroyed millions. Russia was drug along at an astronomically huge price in terms of misery, suffering, and death.

Off topic? Hardly.

You appear to only want to hear wonderful and opulent things about your hero. This I will not do. Historical objectivity prevents this."

Whoa whoa! Comrade! If what you write is true, I am on your bloody side! I had no idea you where Anti Stalin... or so I think. Read the majority of my posts from the start etc... I am against him. I am quite shure we simply miss took one another, it is a shame we had to debate over sides we actualy are both on...

"Now if you want to flame ... be my guest. I will ignore it however. If you want intelligent intercourse ... come on down (as they say on The Price is Right)."

Amusing request... I would accept your trial of greevance, but it seems we are on the same side now... I supose there is no need to fight if we have actualy been in agreeance all along. Please, I am no fraud, read my posts, I am no Stalinist.

[Ocker]

I just read all this, and I can see no visible truth, only personal bias...

Let's for a rhetorical question say Stalin was this great and glorious leader some make hime out to be, even so, was he really that good?

Even if I beleived he was good, it still sounds like an ordinary leader, not the genius he is made out to be...

In my opinion, the people deserve the credit, not Stalin.

[Kov]

Agreed! As in all places of the world, it is the people that need to be rewarded and aknoladged in time, not the leaders. It is always open to debate, Stalin and all. But in all respects it was the people that did the work.

It was also the people that built the Great Wall and also the people that killed off some million or so Jews. For better we people are, or for worse...