[Rei Murasame]

This is one of those things though, I think, where Akuma will inherently use different rhetoric than I would use, because me and him are approaching this from slightly different directions and his politics is also quite different from mine (although we do of course agree on many things).

If someone in Japan is a distinct ethnic minority, and does not want to be called 'Japanese', then I actually have no problem with them doing that. No one in this thread ever said that minority groups should be ignored. For example, the Ainu do exist on the basis of cultural differences in the far north. In many ways I'd encourage that in Hokkaido and the Kuril Islands and Sakhalin. However, if someone were to really encourage that in a heated way, you'll see Slavophiles start panicking (not so much the Japanese), because the Slavs would be worried that this would create a domino effect which would be more disadvantageous to Russian imperialists than to anyone else, since the Russians aren't even from that side of the planet and some courageous Ainu might ask the Russian Slav interlopers in Sakhalin, "why are you even here?"

Regarding the issue of purity, it may be that Akuma and myself have different ideas on what that actually means, but I can't be sure because he wasn't really very specific in his rhetoric. In my view, the Jomon ancestry is the thing which makes Japan unique from anything else in its vicinity, or the world, but I don't know if Akuma agrees with me on that.

[Drlee]

Koreans also have the same narrative for themselves, I assume you also think that is a dangerous Korean supremacy too?

Are only white people allowed to do this?

Anyone can do it but only white people are right. Everyone knows this. Even much earlier Japanese knew this. Kabuki dancers and singers, who invented whining (or at least perfected it) painted their faces white. And this was an homage to who?

In my view, the Jomon ancestry is the thing which makes Japan unique from anything else in its vicinity, or the world, but I don't know if Akuma agrees with me on that.

This is true. But Japan's society was invented by Walt Disney.

[Rei Murasame]

I genuinely did laugh. Sometimes I do wonder if construction company lobbyists really would like to turn the country into Disneyland though, since maintaining that state of affairs would be even more expensive than what they are presently doing (routinely repaving all roads forever - imagine if those roads were in the shape of loop the loops, perhaps over and through castles).

Such lobbyists are more attached to the LDP than to the DPJ though, meaning that in such a case it would be more Akuma's fault than mine, since he prefers the LDP whereas I prefer the DPJ.

[Akuma]

I find it amusing when some westerners debate about Japan without the simple facts.

Simple fact is, that today Japan was fromed from two groups more than 2000 years ago. After that virtually no immigration happened. And thsi happenes till today. Foreigners are excluded in Japan from social life. They stay udner themself. They have a hard time to even bound into society or rent a flat. Some Koreans live in Japan since 5 generations and are still called Korean. No matter what their passport says. And this extreme labelling of people does not stop at foreigners. The Burakumin, or low class people, how you would name them in english are labelled in private lists over generations. Imagine you study at university and even get a degree...but then evry single corporation you ask for a job denies you that job...you end up as top educated janitor and ask yourself why...because 300 years ago one of your ancestors was a butcher and your family did not own land. All this is written in the "under the table list" and corporations check those lists. Its not allowed by law but nobody can enforce it.

It is almost impossible in Japan to "blend in". Evryone is checked and sticked to his social status.

Let me tell you what people would say about a women who marries someone from china or philippines... Such a person in Japan, ceases to exist in society.

And Rei,

You talked about my concept about our people. I believe we are the result of two peoples forged together to what we are today. We are Yamato. And Yamato came into this world when Jomon and Yayoi mixed. I often think about this time and how my ancestors may have been back then. It is interesting because when i look at myself, my hair is not totally black. It looks black from far but from close you see its a very dark brownish and in very much sunlight it even can appear a little bit reddish. My family comes far from north and i assume that is based on stronger ainu genetics. While my face is pretty much yayoi.

[Pants-of-dog]

I find it amusing when some westerners debate about Japan without the simple facts.
....

Let me tell you what people would say about a women who marries someone from china or philippines... Such a person in Japan, ceases to exist in society.

I find it even more amusing that you (a Japanese person) were incorrect about the two facts that you did make: that Shinto was 40 000 years old, and that Japanese pottery is the oldest in the world.

And you still ignore my point about how the Japanese gov't doesn't keep track of ethnicity. if Koreans lived in Japan for five generations and got citizenship, the Japanese census would list them as ethnically Japanese.

How very pure.

[Akuma]

I was not wrong. You simply can´t follow my mind. Shinto did not fall out of the sky. Shinto is not bound on pottery. On some old places basic rituals that we perfom till today could be seen being done as early as 30.000 years ago. Shinto is based in Shamanism. It is known that Shinto started developing its earliest ceremonies with first settlements of our lands and propably even before that on the contient.

The japanese society keeps track of ethnicity. Koreans living in Japan since 5 generations can only marry other koreans and are koreans for the people. They don´t mix. Thats what you don´t get. As i said, thats a concept you would never understand.

Our culture is absolute alien for you. We had the very same discussion before. I deeply believe that our culture can never be understood from any westerner.

We had this debate when i said that our emperor has unlimited power. You guys said: but your constitution...bla bla figurhead...and so on.

Its the same thing. You take your standards and can´t imagine that in Japan a large part of society places the emperor above any other national institution. There are many people who would kill for the smallest word of the emperor. Thats what this extremly strict protocol is for. To contain this danger.

So this debate with you is senseless. Its like talking about the sun with a blind person.

[Dagoth Ur]

Dude we've been using things, practices even, from ancient euro shaminism too (everybody everywhere does this). To try and paint some ancient liniage out of this is absurd. Besides even if your notion was correct, which it isn't, it would mean nothing in regards to the qualitative value of Japan. For instance your supposedly 30,000 year old culture was crushed underfoot by a 200 year old culture and a shaming of your emperor never before experienced.

And let's not forget about the simple fact that the Japanese way had to be ruthlessly exterminated by the Meiji court so that Japan would stop being embarrassingly backwards. When Commodore Perry showed up your Samurai were either refusing to use guns at all or using shitty 1500's era flintlock Belgian guns. That's just one good example. The best way to counter this argument is to display Japan's advances from before westernization (ie Meiji restoration).

[Akuma]

You can call your mother dude but not me. You show no respect and i wont comment this nonsense.

[Dagoth Ur]

Dude. Dude? Dude!

You're making me feel bad for trying to build a dialogue with you. I even gave you an excellent way to counterpoint my second argument.

Furthermore my respect for the Meiji, and their ability to read the writing on wall, cannot be underscored. Many nations in their same position chose to be obstinate instead (and Japan had her share as seen in the Boshin War).

[Pants-of-dog]

I was not wrong. You simply can´t follow my mind.

Lol.

Shinto did not fall out of the sky. Shinto is not bound on pottery. On some old places basic rituals that we perfom till today could be seen being done as early as 30.000 years ago. Shinto is based in Shamanism. It is known that Shinto started developing its earliest ceremonies with first settlements of our lands and propably even before that on the contient.

Not according to the evidence, which gives a date of 15 000 years ago at the earliest.

The japanese society keeps track of ethnicity. Koreans living in Japan since 5 generations can only marry other koreans and are koreans for the people. They don´t mix. Thats what you don´t get. As i said, thats a concept you would never understand.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2 ... 7HYvLHK11s

However, one thing is still unfortunately being overlooked in the census: Japan’s ethnic diversity.

Postwar Japan has officially maintained (justified in part by the feel-good pseudoscience of nihonjinron) that Japan is a monocultural, monoethnic and homogeneous society.

It wasn’t until 1997 that the government officially recognized that any kind of minority even exists in Japan (the Ainu), and it took until 2008 before the Diet passed a resolution recognizing the Ainu as an indigenous people “with a distinct language, religion and culture.”

Nevertheless, this time around Japan’s census does not measure for ethnicity (minzoku). It still measures only for nationality (kokuseki). In other words, on the form you indicate that you are Japanese or that you are miscellaneous (indicate nationality).

So what does that mean for the Ainu? They are Japanese citizens, of course, but their indigenous status remains unaccounted for.

Then how about naturalized citizens? I of course wrote down “Japanese” for my nationality on the census. But I would also have liked to indicate that I am a hyphenated Japanese — a Japanese with American roots, an Amerika-kei Nihonjin.

Our culture is absolute alien for you. We had the very same discussion before. I deeply believe that our culture can never be understood from any westerner.

We had this debate when i said that our emperor has unlimited power. You guys said: but your constitution...bla bla figurhead...and so on.

Its the same thing. You take your standards and can´t imagine that in Japan a large part of society places the emperor above any other national institution. There are many people who would kill for the smallest word of the emperor. Thats what this extremly strict protocol is for. To contain this danger.

So this debate with you is senseless. Its like talking about the sun with a blind person.

We have never discussed this before. Please try to tell us apart.

[Akuma]

Dude. Dude? Dude!

You're making me feel bad for trying to build a dialogue with you. I even gave you an excellent way to counterpoint my second argument.

Furthermore my respect for the Meiji, and their ability to read the writing on wall, cannot be underscored. Many nations in their same position chose to be obstinate instead (and Japan had her share as seen in the Boshin War).

You cant build up a dialogue when your first sentence already contains an insult and deragotary words.

Japan iis and was always able to incorporate useful things without giving up its own roots. thats a strength.ä

and pants of whatever. you are all same for me.

[Pants-of-dog]

and pants of whatever. you are all same for me.

At least you are proud of your inability to tell people apart.

And you are still wrong about the pottery and the age of Shinto, and you still have no idea how impure your race is.

[Akuma]

What exactly is impure about me? Tell me. And i'm not wrong about shinto nor am i about our pottery.

[Dagoth Ur]

In what sense is dude an insult? Are you insulted that I would presume we are on some kind of equal footing and can use the terms of acquaintanceship?

[Pants-of-dog]

What exactly is impure about me? Tell me.

I am referring to "you" in the plural sense. By that I mean that you, the Japanese nation, have an unknown amount of people of non-Japanese ethnicity living in your country, but since your census does not track that, you don't know how many.

Read this text quoted from the linked study:

Among the immigrants, Japan accepts a steady flow of 15,000 new Japanese citizens by naturalization (帰化) per year. [9] Indeed, the concept of the ethnic groups by the Japanese statistics is different from the ethnicity census of North American or some Western European statistics. For example, the United Kingdom Census asks ethnic or racial background which composites the population of the United Kingdom, regardless of their nationalities. [10] The
Japanese Statistics Bureau, however, does not have this question yet. Since the Japanese population census asks the
people's nationality rather than their ethnic background, naturalized Japanese citizens and Japanese nationals with
multi-ethnic background are considered to be ethnically Japanese in the population census of Japan. [7] Thus, in spite
of the widespread belief that Japan is ethnically homogeneous, it is probably more accurate to describe it as a
multiethnic society. [11]

In the 1990s and early 2000s, Japanese diplomats signed agreements with South Asian officials to obtain an estimated 50,000 temporary "guest workers" to work in Japan (e.g., Bangladesh, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India). Similar guest-worker agreements with Latin American countries, such as Brazil, Uruguay, Chile, Mexico and Peru have brought another 20,000 foreigners to Japan, including Latin Americans of Japanese descent who might culturally assimilate into the Japanese population.

And i'm not wrong about shinto nor am i about our pottery.

Yes, you are. In fact, anyone who bothered to read the first page of this thread has seen how the evidence shows that you are wrong.

[Akuma]

Im not wrong since jomon pottery is comsidered oldest in the world. Beside that i wont comment your insults against my people anymore. We are not genetic trash like you claim here. We are not impure.

[Pants-of-dog]

Im not wrong since jomon pottery is comsidered oldest in the world.

No. It is only 15 000 years old. The clay Venus figurines from Dolní Věstonice are 26 000 years old.

Beside that i wont comment your insults against my people anymore. We are not genetic trash like you claim here. We are not impure.

It is no insult to be impure.

[Akuma]

It is an insult and you certainly don't decide what others see as an insult or what not.

[AFAIK]

It's hilarious that someone who has been red carded half a dozen times finds empirical facts and the term 'dude' insulting.

[Pants-of-dog]

It is an insult and you certainly don't decide what others see as an insult or what not.

I understand that you (the specific you, Akuma) are insulted when someone says you (the general you, the Japanese people) are impure.

But you should try to understand that those of us who live in the Americas live in "impure" countries. We do not find it insulting. On the contrary, we actually find it to be a source of strength. We are proud of it.