[Fouad Shoubaki]

Demosthenes: Obviously you have made some bad assumptions and drawn some sad conclusions .

you have stated that you would like to see a secular state in Modern day Israel

I would like to see a non-zionist state , religious identity depends on the peoples to inhabit this state , as there exists religious diversity and the inhabitants are moderate in their religion (which they are on all sides in general) , a secular identity is only logical .

Do you believe then that the Arab world itself shoud become secular???

The majority of the Arab world already is . The religious identity of the state should depend on the religious identity of the inhabitants .

Meaning Saudi Arabia should become secular and a non-religious state>??

Not at all , that would contradict the identity of the Saudi peoples . The problem with Saudi is not religion it's monarchy .

Why can there be over 25 distinctly Muslim countries and no room for one Jewish one?

You can have 25 Jewish country's for all I care , have you ever considered Europe ? The problem with Israel is not religion it is colonization and ethnic cleansement .

[malachi151]

Shalom

The Jüdische Ordnungsdienst, as the Jewish police in the ghettos were called, furnished thousands of men for seizure operations. In the Warsaw ghetto alone the Jewish police numbered approximately 2500; in Lodz they were about 1200 men strong; the Lvov ghetto had an Ordnungsdienst of 500 men; and so on.

(Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, Quadrangle Books, Chicago, 1961, p. 310)

The Satanic plan of the Nazis assured that the personal fate of each Jew - whether for life or death - be exclusively left up to the decisions of the "councils of elders" [Judenrat]. The Nazis, from time to time, decided upon a general quota for the work of the camps and for extermination, but the individual selection was left up to the "council of elders", with the enforcement of kidnappings and arrests also placed in the hands of the Jewish police (kapos). By this shrewd method, the Nazis were highly successful in accomplishing mass murder and poisoning the atmosphere of the ghetto through moral degeneration and corruption.


(Reb Moshe Shonfeld, The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals, Neturei Karta of U.S.A., Brooklyn, 1977, pp. 119-120, emphasis added)


Moldetsky, a leader of the Zionist Workers Party (Poalei Zion), who was appointed head of the council of elders in Bedzin, and who, over the course of years, chose thousands of Jews for forced labor and extermination, succeeded in remaining alive. For the mass deportations, Moldetsky published a decree which was completely fraudulent and deceiving, in which he said: "Jews, dress up in your holiday clothes and march joyfully to the gathering places mentioned above. No one is to remain at home. ..." The Jews, in their innocence, obeyed him. The result was that people with large families - as well as the elderly - a total of 8,000, were sent to Auschwitz. The babies were pushed into sacks by the Nazis.

After the war, Moldetsky - by merit of Zionist activities - was understandably one of the first to receive an immigration certificate to Palestine. His collaboration in the murder of tens of thousands of Jews did not make him unfit in the eyes of the officials of the Jewish Agency, who were distributing the certificates. He went to Eretz Yisroel where, it has been reported, the revengeful hand of the Jews of Bedzin killed him while he was taking a trip in the mountains.

(Reb Moshe Shonfeld, The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals, Neturei Karta of U.S.A., Brooklyn, 1977, pp. 122-123)

It would only be very logical for a vast connection between the Kapos/Judenrat & the Zionists in Europe , and as one is aware of the follow-ups of the LEHI terrorist-militias led by Avraham Stern and later Ytizhak Shamir (PM of 86) , as for the Irgun terrorist-militias led by Vladimir Jabotinsky and later Menechim Begin (PM) , you could imagine the hard-core of what has survived the holocaust , thus one might link the ones during the holocaust and after it .

There are Jews who confront the Zionists with their Nazi-history , [url=http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/tenquestions.htm]Ten questions to the Zionists
by Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl ZT"L
Dean of Nitra Yeshiva
[/url]

I wonder if there are peoples in here who have researched the function of Zionism within the German Nazi-society before the holocaust , during and after with the Palestine groups . I am wondering how y'all feel about it .

PEACE

Well, a lot of those quotes are garbage, but here is my input on this.

#1 The Nazis had no plans origionaly to kill Jews, their plan was to force the Jews to immigrate out of Germany to Palastine. In fact many Jews did immigrate out of Germany to Palastein prior to 1939. Almost 1 million Jews immigrated from Germany to Palestein during Nazi rule.

http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/holoc ... estine.htm

#2 The majority of Jews that were killed by the Nazis were not German Jews, they were Polish and Russian Jews, the Germans were not very open to the idea of killing German Jews in fact, it created a lot of controversy and did not happen until the very end of the war.

#3 The Germans had real plans to help relocate Jews to Palastein, however since the war most people claim that those were just code words for extermination of the Jews, but this is in fact not true.

#4 The Germans decided to commit mass murder of Jews after the start of WWII because according ot them "the Jews started the war". The Germans beleived that they woudl be able to invade Poland without war. Their plan was to invade Poland and then attack Russia. Thier view was that Britain and France declared war becuase of "the influence fo the Jews". I think they honestly believed this, and in fact there are elements of truth to it, though not entirely. So, they saw extermination of Jews as revenge for causing war on Germany.

But yes, the origional plan from the start was that the Germans were pro-Zionist, sort of but not really, they were in favor of getting Jews out of Germany and to Israel and thus they supported Zionism in that way, but they still hated Jews. They didn't like Zionism, they simply thought it was a good way to get Jews out of Germany.

According to the Germans it was the Jews who were the Satanic ones; funny how they both call each other Satanic.

[Demosthenes]

Demosthenes: Obviously you have made some bad assumptions and drawn some sad conclusions .

Hmmm...obviusly not, your last post before your triumphant return was on June 26th. Today is October 31...what is that nearly four months? My assumption may have been incorrect but was hardly illogical.

Nonetheless if you say you're no troll then fine by me.

[Fouad Shoubaki]

Demosthenes : To conclude trolling from not posting is not logical because there are a variety of reasons one can have not to post and the exact relevance of non-posting is lacking in the definition of a troll .

Well, a lot of those quotes are garbage

I was hoping you could tell me which ones exactly and how they are to be considered garbage .

First it is important to know 2 things that , of which one I did not realize myself completely when I started this thread months ago . Zionism was not a co-herent movement , ideologically speaking all it has in common is the creation of a zionist state . Apart from this the politics revolving zionism adapt to the identity of the zionist host , this offered zionism the opportunity to maximize it's common goal .

Secondly what should be remembered is that zionism was never a peoples movement , that it became after the holocaust . Oftenly zionism tended (and still does) to speak for the Jewish peoples , reality is that not even now , let alone then , there is talk of correct representation .

The majority of Jews that were killed by the Nazis were not German Jews, they were Polish and Russian Jews, the Germans were not very open to the idea of killing German Jews in fact, it created a lot of controversy and did not happen until the very end of the war.

In 1942 Himmler presented the Final Solution , interestingly enough the Jewish Zionist "resistance" did not exist within the Reich untill after the great deportation in that same year , followed by the Warsaw uprising .

I do not see what you are trying to say by mentioning that most victimized Jews were not German . They were on new German territory were they not ?

The Germans had real plans to help relocate Jews to Palastein, however since the war most people claim that those were just code words for extermination of the Jews, but this is in fact not true.

Indeed it is not true , they had very genuine plans for Zionists , even though Hitler himself never liked them since he felt they would not truly become a new peoples but just have a head-quater in their new state , make them more powerfull globally . If we would replace the word "Jew" with "Zionist" we see that Hitler was absolutely right on this one since Paul Wolfowitz , Richard Perle & Douglas Feith aren't Tel Aviv residents yet .

But there was a genuine support within the nazi-system especially with the SS for this transition the Jew would make and made in Israel . Zionism is a psychological proces , and the result of it made the Jews look as re-born in the eyes of many nazi's . Nationalism was somuch more important to nazi's than actual race , this was not different for the Jewish question .

The Germans decided to commit mass murder of Jews after the start of WWII because according ot them "the Jews started the war". Thier view was that Britain and France declared war becuase of "the influence fo the Jews". I think they honestly believed this, and in fact there are elements of truth to it, though not entirely.

Perhaps in the far distant they might have had a point , certainly as far as Zionism goes . Did Brittish "Judea" not declare war on Germany in 1933 , did Vladimir Jabotinsky not call for the complete destruction of Germany in the same period of time ? Zionism outside of the Reich fought the Reich by all means that it could , and may have had quite an influence on the decleration of war on Germany . But perhaps that deserves it's own thread .

But yes, the origional plan from the start was that the Germans were pro-Zionist, sort of but not really, they were in favor of getting Jews out of Germany and to Israel and thus they supported Zionism in that way, but they still hated Jews. They didn't like Zionism, they simply thought it was a good way to get Jews out of Germany.

No I think this is where you are wrong , common share of interest (Jewish migration away to Palestine) there are other grounds on which Zionists and Nazis within the Reich allied . Both grounds reflect in the position of LEHI as they offered military collaboration in 1941 .

1) Nationalism
2) Anti-semitism

One more or less follows from the other , I will elaborate my arguments elsewhere later on , but important to understand is the fact that zionism originally was pure anti-semitism , but from a self-critic perspective . The zionist desired a Jewish homeland because they considered the Jewish peoples in Europe a dispicable peoples , which resulted in their agreement on anti-semitism with the anti-semites . Their idea was that through nationalization (which involved cultural revival , Hebrew etc) the Jew would be cured , and that was something the nazi's admired . The Aryan and the Hebrew were of the same kind , and this share brought many nazi's and zionists on an ideological level , which as I mentioned reflects perfectly in Stern's proposal to Hitler.

Cooperation between the new Germany and a renewed folkish-national Hebraium

This attitude shows as well with the head of the SS Jewish Department Von Mildenstein , as he speaks of the zionists :

The soil has reformed him and his kind in a decade. This new Jew will be a new people.

The common hate for the Yid and the common love for the Hebrew have played an important role in their collaboration , along the shared interests of a Jew-free Germany .

According to the Germans it was the Jews who were the Satanic ones; funny how they both call each other Satanic.

I think everything would have turned out just fine if the Nazis did not claim representation of the German peoples and the Zionists of the Jewish peoples .

[treat2]

Unfortunately, I didn't have to read more than a paragrazh..

I knew what was going to be said and the argument's behind it.

Even more unfortunately, is that short of gas chambers, actual concentration camps, and a very few other things, ...

There are in fact many similarities between Israel today, and Germany, after the Brown Shirts acquired real power in the late 30's.

The list of differences, between how an Israeli Arab, and Israeli Jew are treated are so long, and extensive, it desrves a book. And that is truely unfortunate, and ultimately, why Israel will eventually have to undergo a radical transition, or completely disappear, due to the injustices that exist within it.

I would make this one remark, though... which I do firmly believe has merit.....

There is absolutely no question that Anti-Semitism is still wide spread and world-wide. It didn't start with the creation of Israel. and an virtually none of it has anything at all to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, either. That, is a given, I firmly believe. Related to this is the small number of Jews in the world, compared to poeple of other major religions within countries, in which Jews have at some time, moved to, or were born in.
The fear of persecution and the recognition of the existance of anti-semitism as a world-wide phenimenon, DOES have a justified and rational basis.

I therefore, DO understand a desire for the security a powerful State, as a protected refuge for Jews, BUT NOT limitted to Jews! In this regard, I do support the idea, the want, and most probably the necessity for a Nation.
However, I am absolutely and totally, against the treatment of other cultures and religions within that State, as 2nd class Citizens, and akin to garbage. THAT does exist in peoples, miinds, in the laws and Constitution of The State, and in the treatment of Arab Israelis. And I am totally, and completely against that, in any form whatsoever. However, I am NOT against a powerful State or (non-exclusive) refuge, for Jews, and whom ever else chooses to live in that State. So.... I would REDEFINE Zionism
as it is currently used by virtually the entire world, and by Jews, alike.
I have absolutely no problem with a State for Jews that has absoluely no laws that people of all other cultures and religions in the exact same manner (i.e. all people are legally equall).in any way make people of other cultures or religions, To sum it up, Zionism, by MY definition does not require in equality, nor can it be permitted to is it unjust or favor any group. If other folks want to move there. Fine by me! (People will have to learn to live together. Consider the changes in America during the past 60 years, with regard to African Americans. It would have been absolute science fiction to suggest to an African American that in 30, 40, 50, 60 years, an African-American will beour Secretary of State (the 3rd most powerful position in the Executive Branch), and ALSO another will be the Head of the NSA, and Another will be our Surgeon General. And there will be a (snall) group in the Senate, and the Copngress too.) - Moral is: If Israel doesn't chjange it is doomed to disaster. All one need to is look at the birth rate, and use common sense, and history as a guide.

A last comment. Some folks, can not envision that Zionism could be redefined, as I do. The harp on it for anti-Semitic reasons, and they can see none of the reasons why a powerful State should exist in which Jews can feel protected. They can only imagine it must require the exclusion of other religions and people. I give you the United States as proof that a State need not be that way. Yet, immagrants and it's people can generally feel secure. So, I can not say I;nm anit-Zionist. I redefine it, as I believe it should be, and no one can claim there can be no other interpretations of a "concept". History and the world is living proof of that.