[late]

This over simplistic explanation just isn't sufficient. There's no question that the economic contradictions and problems of the 1970s and 1980s in the USSR led to the political crisis. But it largely collapsed because of the political crisis and mishandling of that crisis by the leadership of the Communist Party at that time. I would also argue it collapse as a result of the inability of the Party to mobilize the workers prior to that crisis as well of course.

Sorry, kiddo, someone is feeding you a load of bull.

The Soviet economy was in terrible shape when oil prices crashed in the 80s. Their oil income dropped at the same time they had to increase food imports. There was a cascade failure that is common when economies fail. Something similar happened in America at the beginning of the Great Depression.

[litwin]

Why don't you move to Cuba and enjoy the fruits of communism?

or North Korea

[ThirdTerm]

The Soviet economy was booming from the 1970s to the 1980s. It was rather the technological gap that forced the Soviet Union to open up the country, especially in IT (Information Technology). The Soviet leadership had gone soft on imposing communism on the satellite states in the late 1980s, when the Soviet Bloc was gradually liberated under the policies of glasnost (openness) and perestroika (restructuring). Gorbachev didn't believe in Soviet-style communist rule and he was a humanist who believed in the idea of the brotherhood of all peoples irrespective of their nationality.


By 1970, the Soviet economy had reached its zenith and was estimated at 60 percent of the size of the United States[64] in terms of the estimated commodities (like steel and coal). In 1989, the official GDP of the Soviet Union was $2,500 billion[65] while the GDP of the United States was $4,862 billion[66] with per capita income figures as $8,700 and $19,800 respectively. The USSR was the first major non-Western country to close the developmental gap that had existed with the West since the 16th century.[67]: 52  In the period 1930 to 1960s, the USSR successfully implemented catch-up development.[67]: 52 

[KurtFF8]

Why don't you move to Cuba and enjoy the fruits of communism?

I'm surprised that people still use this incoherent rebuttal.

You're just showing that you know very little about any of this.

Sorry, kiddo, someone is feeding you a load of bull.

The Soviet economy was in terrible shape when oil prices crashed in the 80s. Their oil income dropped at the same time they had to increase food imports. There was a cascade failure that is common when economies fail. Something similar happened in America at the beginning of the Great Depression.

How does this even contradict what I said? I acknowledged that the Soviet economy wasn't in good shape by the 1980s. But what led to the collapse was the attempt to fix it. Gorbachevs reforms added market mechanisms and liberal structures that accelerated the crisis in the economy. That coupled with his consistent political miscalculations led to a general crisis.

[wat0n]

@KurtFF8 why?

I would think you'd be happy to move there, and live the dream.

[litwin]

TheSoviet economy was booming from the 1970s to the 1980s. It was rather the technological gap that forced the Soviet Union to open up the country, especially in IT (Information Technology). The Soviet leadership had gone soft on imposing communism on the satellite states in the late 1980s, when the Soviet Bloc was gradually liberated under the policies of glasnost (openness) and perestroika (restructuring). Gorbachev didn't believe in Soviet-style communist rule and he was a humanist who believed in the idea of the brotherhood of all peoples irrespective of their nationality.


By 1970, the Soviet economy had reached its zenith and was estimated at 60 percent of the size of the United States[64] in terms of the estimated commodities (like steel and coal). In 1989, the official GDP of the Soviet Union was $2,500 billion[65] while the GDP of the United States was $4,862 billion[66] with per capita income figures as $8,700 and $19,800 respectively. The USSR was the first major non-Western country to close the developmental gap that had existed with the West since the 16th century.[67]: 52  In the period 1930 to 1960s, the USSR successfully implemented catch-up development.[67]: 52 

only in your parallel ivan´s world


read this :
The "Era of Stagnation" (Russian: Пери́од засто́я, romanized: Períod zastóya, or Эпо́ха засто́я Epókha zastóya) is a term coined by Mikhail Gorbachev in order to describe the negative way in which he viewed the economic, political, and social policies of the Soviet Union that began during the rule of Leonid Brezhnev (1964–1982) and continued under Yuri Andropov (1982–1984) and Konstantin Chernenko (1984–1985)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Era_of_Stagnation

[litwin]

I'm surprised that people still use this incoherent rebuttal.

You're just showing that you know very little about any of this.



How does this even contradict what I said? I acknowledged that the Soviet economy wasn't in good shape by the 1980s. But what led to the collapse was the attempt to fix it. Gorbachevs reforms added market mechanisms and liberal structures that accelerated the crisis in the economy. That coupled with his consistent political miscalculations led to a general crisis.

lol, ivan, i was there its a totalitarian , commie , stalinist crap whole (something like Armenia was in 70s , just much poorer ) , tell me more what i have missed ?

[litwin]

[litwin]

The toad has turned.

[KurtFF8]

@KurtFF8 why?

I would think you'd be happy to move there, and live the dream.

Who said that Cuba was "the dream"? Cuba is simply a workers' state. There's nothing magical about it, just different class relations than in a place like the USA.

And who gave you the impression that Marxists are just looking for the best place to live rather than trying to actually change the world?

lol, ivan, i was there its a totalitarian , commie , stalinist crap whole (something like Armenia was in 70s , just much poorer ) , tell me more what i have missed ?

What?

[wat0n]

Who said that Cuba was "the dream"? Cuba is simply a workers' state. There's nothing magical about it, just different class relations than in a place like the USA.

And who gave you the impression that Marxists are just looking for the best place to live rather than trying to actually change the world?

...To actually change the world to have us living worse off, at that.

[Skynet]

Turkey should rather switch to the an Alliance with Russia, Iran and Syria (this demanded an politician in Turkey).

[late]

How does this even contradict what I said?

You were simply wrong. This has been extensively studied by economists.

Trying to centralise a modern economy is guaranteed to fail.

[KurtFF8]

...To actually change the world to have us living worse off, at that.

Show me where Marxists promote the idea that people should "live worse off"

You were simply wrong. This has been extensively studied by economists.

Trying to centralise a modern economy is guaranteed to fail.

Nope! The USSR collapsed after Gorbachev further liberalized the economy. The economy had issues before that, yes. But his attempt to address those issues by liberalization was an utter disaster.

[wat0n]

Show me where Marxists promote the idea that people should "live worse off"

It's not about what Marxists promote, just about how it works in practice.

Which is why I ask: Why don't you move to a workers' state and experience it yourself?

[litwin]

Who said that Cuba was "the dream"?Cuba is simply a workers' state.There's nothing magical about it, just different class relations than in a place like the USA.

And who gave you the impression that Marxists are just looking for the best place to live rather than trying to actually change the world?



What?

No, Cuba is a commie& TOTALITARIAN CRAP HOLE.
WHERE DO YOU LIVE ?

[Istanbuller]

Turkey doesn't really care about Sweden, NATO or Russia. We will get some 70 new F-16s in exchange for Sweden's membership. Relations with America was rough for last 10 years and Turkey was privately embargoed. Recently Turkish Air Forces lags behind our neigbours. These new F-16s will be be a lifeblood.

Maybe we get F-35s in exchange for Ukraine's membership?

[KurtFF8]

It's not about what Marxists promote, just about how it works in practice.

Which is why I ask: Why don't you move to a workers' state and experience it yourself?

In practice, when workers states have been achieved: they advance the standards of living in just about all historical examples available. So I'm not really sure what you're getting at. For example, Russia went from a vastly underdeveloped nearly semi-feudal country in 1917 to being the first country in the world to launch items into space within the span of just a few decades. Something that's never really been done before or since on that scale.

And again, you suggesting that I personally move to a worker's state is genuinely an incoherent point. You're unable to explain how such a question is relevant in the slightest.

No, Cuba is a commie& TOTALITARIAN CRAP HOLE.
WHERE DO YOU LIVE ?

Are you just a parody account?

[litwin]

Turkey doesn't really care about Sweden, NATO or Russia. We will get some 70 new F-16s in exchange for Sweden's membership. Relations with America was rough for last 10 years and Turkey was privately embargoed. Recently Turkish Air Forces lags behind our neigbours. These new F-16s will be be a lifeblood.

Maybe we get F-35s in exchange for Ukraine's membership?

[wat0n]

In practice, when workers states have been achieved: they advance the standards of living in just about all historical examples available. So I'm not really sure what you're getting at. For example, Russia went from a vastly underdeveloped nearly semi-feudal country in 1917 to being the first country in the world to launch items into space within the span of just a few decades. Something that's never really been done before or since on that scale.

And again, you suggesting that I personally move to a worker's state is genuinely an incoherent point. You're unable to explain how such a question is relevant in the slightest.

Too bad for you that several capitalist states also achieved the same, without collapsing like the USSR did.

Also, not all workers' states and not all capitalist states have been able to become developed.