South Africa launches case at UN court accusing Israel of genocide - Page 33 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15308954
The author of the previous post does not seem to understand the claims being made.

No one discussed UN assessments.

No one said there was absolutely no aid going into northern Gaza. The actual words were “insignificant trickle”.

No one addressed the whataboutism.

The actual claim is that the IFF and Israeli government are deliberately trying to starve people in northern Gaza by withholding humanitarian assistance. killing humanitarian aid workers, and other measures.

Since the actuak claim is not being refuted in any way, it is logical to assume that no one disputes this.
#15308957
The poster above me (@Pants-of-dog) has yet to prove that aid is not getting to Gaza, and using vague terms like "trickle" instead of discussing the actual levels of aid imports.

All available stats suggest this is not the case and that imports of essentials like food and medicine into Gaza are at or above pre-war levels. This includes stats compiled by UN bodies like OCHA whose credibility is not under dispute.

The poster also ignores both what the Geneva Conventions say about aid delivery, and actual practice where UN aid cuts to prevent misappropriation led to the deaths by starvation of 1,329 in the Tigray.

Instead, the poster is just rehashing neonazi talking points which also proves that he stands with them on this issue, and is being passive-aggressive over it.
#15308973
From the World Food Programme:

    WFP food deliveries to northern Gaza face further setbacks

    ROME – Efforts by the UN World Food Programme (WFP) to deliver desperately needed food supplies to Northern Gaza resumed today but were largely unsuccessful.

    A 14-truck food convoy – the first by WFP since it paused deliveries to the north on 20 February – was turned back by the Israeli Defence Force after a three-hour wait at the Wadi Gaza checkpoint.

    “Although today’s convoy did not make it to the north to provide food to the people who are starving, WFP continues to explore every possible means to do so,” said Carl Skau, WFP’s Deputy Executive Director.

    After being turned away the trucks were rerouted and later stopped by a large crowd of desperate people who looted the food, taking around 200 tons, from the trucks.

    Road routes are the only option to transport the large quantities of food needed to avert famine in northern Gaza.

    Earlier today, with the help of the Royal Jordanian Air Force, WFP food supplies for 20,000 people (6 tons) were dropped in northern Gaza.

    “Airdrops are a last resort and will not avert famine. We need entry points to northern Gaza that will allow us to deliver enough food for half a million people in desperate need,” Skau added.

    Hunger has reached catastrophic levels in the north of Gaza where children are dying of hunger-related diseases and suffering severe levels of malnutrition. A massive relief operation requires more entry points into Gaza, including from the north, and the use of Ashdod port.

    A ceasefire in Gaza is urgently needed to enable an operation of this size. With greater safety for humanitarian staff to move food and other supplies regularly throughout the Strip and with routes in from the North, WFP and its partners can prevent famine.

    The United Nations World Food Programme is the world’s largest humanitarian organization, saving lives in emergencies and using food assistance to build a pathway to peace, stability and prosperity for people recovering from conflict, disasters and the impact of climate change.


https://www.wfp.org/news/wfp-food-deliv ... r-setbacks

There are several facts mentioned in this article:

The WFP has been unable to deliver food to northern Gaza since February 20.

People in the region are already dying of starvation and malnutrition.

It is the IDF and the Israeli government blocking the humanitarian assistance.

The amount of food currently reaching northern Gaza is not enough to avert famine and is therefore insignificant.

——————

According to the United Nations:

    Israel tells UN it will reject UNRWA food convoys into northern Gaza

    “As of today, UNRWA, the main lifeline for Palestine refugees, is denied from providing lifesaving assistance to northern Gaza,” UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini wrote in a social media post on X.

    He called the decision “outrageous”, saying it was made to intentionally obstruct lifesaving aid deliveries during a man-made famine in the northern part of the Gaza Strip.

    He underlined the need to lift this ban, adding that UNRWA – the backbone of the humanitarian response in Gaza – is the largest relief agency in the Strip and has the greatest ability to reach displaced communities there.

    “Despite the tragedy unfolding under our watch, the Israeli authorities informed the UN that they will no longer approve any UNRWA food convoys to the north. This is outrageous & makes it intentional to obstruct lifesaving assistance during a man-made famine,” he wrote.

    “These restrictions must be lifted,” he continued.

    “By preventing UNRWA to fulfill its mandate in Gaza, the clock will tick faster towards famine & many more will die of hunger, dehydration + lack of shelter,” he warned. “This cannot happen, it would only stain our collective humanity.”

    World Health Organization (WHO) chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus slammed the new order.

    “Blocking UNRWA from delivering food is in fact denying starving people the ability to survive,” he said in a social media post.

    “This decision must be urgently reversed,” he continued.

    “The levels of hunger are acute. All efforts to deliver food should not only be permitted but there should be an immediate acceleration of food deliveries.”

    UN Emergency Relief Coordinator Martin Griffiths echoed that message.

    "I have urged Israel to lift all impediments on aid to Gaza. Now this – MORE impediments," he wrote on social media.

    "UNRWA is the beating heart of the humanitarian response in Gaza," he stated.

    "The decision to block its food convoys to the north only pushes thousands closer to famine," he warned. "It must be revoked."

    The Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) report on Gaza Strip stated last week that famine is imminent in the northern part of the Strip and is expected to occur between now and May in the two northern governorates, which are home to about 300,000 people.

    Upon the report’s release, UN Secretary General António Guterres described the findings as an “appalling indictment of conditions on the ground for civilians”.

    “Palestinians in Gaza are enduring horrifying levels of hunger and suffering,” he said at the time. “This is an entirely man-made disaster, and the report makes clear that it can be halted.”

    The UN chief is currently in the region on his annual Ramadan solidarity trip, having visited with Palestinian women and children injured by Israeli attacks on Gaza, and strongly renewed his call for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire. His trip included a visit to the Rafah border crossing into Gaza and planned meetings in Egypt and Jordan.

    Earlier on Sunday, Mr. Guterres met the press in Cairo, reiterating that call.

    “Palestinians in Gaza desperately need what has been promised: a flood of aid,” he said, “not trickles, not drops.”

    He said some progress has been made, but much more needs to be done, and making that increasing aid flows requires very practical steps.

    Early on Sunday, UNRWA’s Commissioner-General said that there will be widespread consequences for Palestine refugees in Gaza and the region following the newly passed United States foreign aid spending bill for 2024, which limits funding to the agency until March 2025.

    He said the humanitarian community in Gaza is racing against time to avoid famine and that any gap in funding for UNRWA will undermine access to food, shelter, primary health care and education at an extremely difficult time.

    Palestine refugees are counting on the international community to increase its support to meet their basic needs, he said.

    UNRWA supports about 5.9 million Palestinian refugees in its five areas of operations: Gaza, the West Bank including East Jerusalem, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.

    Mr. Lazzarini expressed his appreciation for UNRWA’s supporters from members of the US Congress “who are speaking on behalf of the agency during this difficult period” and for US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken’s support last week with the European Union.

    The UNRWA chief stressed that the agency will continue to work with the US on the path of joint commitment towards Palestine refugees and peace and stability throughout the region.

    He said that UNRWA, along with donors and partners, will continue to implement its mandate entrusted to it by the UN General Assembly to protect the rights of Palestine refugees until a lasting political solution is reached.


Facts from this article:

The famine is artificially created and deliberately caused by the IDF and Israeli government.

The WHO chief also thinks that blocking UNRWA aid is deliberate starvation.

As does the UN Emergency Relief Coordinator.

Independent bodies have verified the imminent risk of famine.

The UN chief also called current food assistance a “trickle”, and has clearly pointed a finger at the IDF and Israeli government as the actors who must open more land access routes.

TL;DR version:

Aid is not getting into Gaza at levels necessary to avoid famine, and this is a deliberate tactic by the IDF and Israeli government.
#15308979
...And @Pants-of-dog keeps ignoring the delivery of aid by sea and air, and also the fact that ground deliveries are dangerous given the ongoing combat in northern Gaza.

I don't find it surprising that Israel does not want the presumably Israeli truckers to be exposed to those dangers and risk being taken hostage, even more so after Egyptian truckers have confirmed it is dangerous and complained about being pelted with stones. I also don't find it surprising that @Pants-of-dog would just disregard these risks (when the victims are Israeli at least, just like his neonazi buddies do).

Also, this still does not address that both the letter of the law and past practice have shown these concerns are legitimate, in fact, even lesser concerns like corruption are legitimate reasons to withhold aid even if causes hundreds to starve to death.

Skynet wrote:https://youtu.be/lxgRFq2Y0H4?si=OmUsMGWjjUkrnQlq

Israeli army became a horde


Even Hamas went out and said those allegations were false, and AJ deleted the allegations from its social media.
#15308986
wat0n wrote:Why would you just ignore this one, I wonder?


By what you're posting, a much larger percentage of Americans believe that Israel is the one committing genocide.


Are you really disputing that American neonazis oppose Israel and stand with Palestine?


The far right in the US generally supports Israel. And even if there are neo nazi groups that oppose Israel, that doesn't mean that the Left is in any kind of a way "allied" with them. It's a baseless and false claim.

Yes, and that was and is still seen as a big mistake.


Yep

That didn't stop it from trying.


The USSR was never ideologically aligned with the fascist countries of Europe. It's a holdover Cold War trope to describe the USSR's relationship (including the non aggression Pact) as an "alliance." Just an attempt at false equivalence.

Seriously, even the Soviets don't deny the attempt even if they simply claimed Stalin was trolling (basically). But then, why would the Comintern use its American proxies to try to keep the US out of the war in Europe until the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union?


The negotiations didn't lead to any such alliance. The USSR also entered into what's called the Percentages Agreement with the UK. That doesn't mean that the USSR and the UK were in any way "allied" after the war. Far from it.

Truth is indeed hard to accept, isn't it?


This is projection by you.
#15308989
KurtFF8 wrote:By what you're posting, a much larger percentage of Americans believe that Israel is the one committing genocide.


No.

34 is less than 39.

KurtFF8 wrote:The far right in the US generally supports Israel. And even if there are neo nazi groups that oppose Israel, that doesn't mean that the Left is in any kind of a way "allied" with them. It's a baseless and false claim.


Neither baseless nor false. It is true you stand together and share aims, it is not my fault they're your buddies on this one.

And if you don't like it, allow me to point out that it is your camp that legitimized this standard.

KurtFF8 wrote:The USSR was never ideologically aligned with the fascist countries of Europe. It's a holdover Cold War trope to describe the USSR's relationship (including the non aggression Pact) as an "alliance." Just an attempt at false equivalence.


You forgot Stalin's attempt to join the Axis. It seems the "anti-fascism" only went so far.

KurtFF8 wrote:The negotiations didn't lead to any such alliance. The USSR also entered into what's called the Percentages Agreement with the UK. That doesn't mean that the USSR and the UK were in any way "allied" after the war. Far from it.


That is more like the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. But joining the Axis? That's a very, very different proposition.

KurtFF8 wrote:This is projection by you.


What is objectively true is that communists did not have any issues in being buddies with Nazis when it suit them.

I thought you were all for smashing them or some shit like that.
#15308991
wat0n wrote:No.

34 is less than 39.


I'm comparing what you posted to the article I posted before that demonstrates a majority of Americans believe that Israel is committing genocide.



Neither baseless nor false. It is true you stand together and share aims, it is not my fault they're your buddies on this one.

And if you don't like it, allow me to point out that it is your camp that legitimized this standard.


You're either just trolling here or you're embarrassing yourself (I guess not mutually exclusive).


What is objectively true is that communists did not have any issues in being buddies with Nazis when it suit them.


This is of course false. It's not worth derailing this thread further with your absurd attempt to equate two opposite schools of thought to score cheap political points. If you want to have a discussion on this issue, start a thread elsewhere.

I thought you were all for smashing them or some shit like that.


Communists are anti-fascists. There have been no "alliances" between Communists and fascists despite how much you want to falsely claim so.
#15308992
KurtFF8 wrote:I'm comparing what you posted to the article I posted before that demonstrates a majority of Americans believe that Israel is committing genocide.


Why believe one and not the other?

KurtFF8 wrote:You're either just trolling here or you're embarrassing yourself (I guess not mutually exclusive).


It seems you don't like it when your own logic is used against you.

I hope you enjoy your time with your neonazi buddies. It's not the first time communists do that, won't be the last one either.

KurtFF8 wrote:This is of course false. It's not worth derailing this thread further with your absurd attempt to equate two opposite schools of thought to score cheap political points. If you want to have a discussion on this issue, start a thread elsewhere.


This doesn't change the fact communists and fascists have made common cause in the past. American communists in particular did their best to stymie attempts to aid in the war against Hitler, until the Comintern told them to stop.

KurtFF8 wrote:Communists are anti-fascists. There have been no "alliances" between Communists and fascists despite how much you want to falsely claim so.


Then why did Stalin try to join the Axis?
#15308996
The air and sea assistances are not ignored in the argument or in the evidence. They were defined as an insignificant trickle, and evidence was shown that while these sources of humanitarian assistance exist, they are insignificant and a trickle when compared to the food needed.
#15309012
ingliz wrote:Since 1 January, only 21 percent (5 out of 24) of planned deliveries of aid containing food and other lifesaving supplies reached their destination north of Wadi Gaza.


Yet, according to OCHA January food imports were at the pre-war levels, as was shown earlier ITT.

If it is somehow impossible for those deliveries to arrive from the north, why isn't Hamas making sure they arrive from the south?
#15309022
wat0n wrote:Yet, according to OCHA January food imports were at the pre-war levels, as was shown earlier ITT.

If it is somehow impossible for those deliveries to arrive from the north, why isn't Hamas making sure they arrive from the south?


The same Hamas that the IDF are now actively exterminating? I think they might have other things on their mind right now.
#15309047
It is incorrect to say that food levels are back to pre war levels.

The information this is supposedly based (OCHA figures) on is not available to the public right now and the website does not have figures for February.

Moreover, information form UNRWA, OCHA, and The UN has been presented that shows that the IDF and the Israeli government are only allowing in about 100 trucks a day, which is 400 less than what is needed.

Here is an IPC brief. At the bottom of the second page, it explicitly states that 60 food trucks have entered Gaza each day since the hostilities began, down from 150 before the war started.

So the claim is not only incorrect, but can also be easily disproved by consulting any humanitarian aid agency involved.
#15309054
This is a weird way to simply deny the available stats on truck entries, which I cited earlier. And taking the average since the war began is deceiving, because almost no trucks entered Gaza on October and the number gradually went back to the pre-war levels from November onwards.

The pre-war 150 trucks/day figure is also misleading, according to OCHA around 75 truckloads/day with human food entered Gaza before the war (January 2023 - September 2023). Note: A truckload is a better unit of measurement since 1 truckload corresponds to the freight needed to fill a truck. Counting trucks is problematic, since trucks may not be filled or may not just have food. These 75 truckloads/day could correspond to more trucks/day in practice.
#15309060
It is impossible for anyone to have cited the available stats on truck entries for February since they are not publicly available yet.

It is illogical to ignore this fact and continue to claim an impossibility.

If anyone would like confirmation from the drop of 150 trucks a day to 60, please look at the bottom of the second page on the linked paper in my previous post.
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