[Verv]

I envy your ability to live in a world where you can so easily divine the intentions of a politician, and their actions, by their words.

It's very easy to turn anyone into a villain when you can uncharitably ascribe intentions to them and distort everything that they say or do.

https://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15300367#p15300367

If you want my position, Verv? Is Trump guilty of insurrection for his actions on January 6th? No.

He's probably guilty of an attempted autocoup for his actions surrounding and including January 6th - his propoganda campaign about the election which predated the actual election, setting up false slates of electors, improper communications with state boards of education, attempts to coordinate the removal of Pence the day of (for which January 6th provided justification) and having Grassley step in to throw the election to the House, etc. And he should be disqualified from office for all of it at the least, and I don't buy his legal argument desperately trying to save his hide from criminal conviction either. And if Biden ever does the same, lock the fogey up and throw away the key.

If we are a country of laws, we have to convict him of conspiracy to overthrow the government or some such, with real evidence, in a criminal court, instead of ascribing malice to his actions.

When you make it so a man who tells a crowd to let their voices be peacefully heard is guilty of inciting rioting, you make it so that nobody actually has free speech and everybody can be disqualified from office for inciting violence because you have decided that the law is unimportant and only you and your buddy's intuition on the topic is important.

... But this makes sense for a guy with the username "fasces."

In federal court.

So we are narrowing it even further: In federal court at a specific time we need him to dispute that there was an insurrection (which is something obviously disputed by everyone), because legal frameworks work that way and all reality must bend around these legal errors and definitions.

It's a preposterous position.

Oxymoron.

Yeah, sure, I am not going to stand up for American democracy much, either... But I am at least proposing a democratic process, while you are backing up what makes it undemocratic by desiring to remove someone from the ballots because they're your political enemy.

[Verv]

What is this? One of a 1000 covid conspiracy theories? unz.com? Ann Coulter?

We had Generals lie to Trump about the presence of American troops in the Middle East... Of course the deep state would manipulate things like this to the best of their ability.

In part because so many of these midwits are in hystertics about Trump.

All of Trump's (fabricated) fraud claims were dismissed in court. Biden was the lawful president-elect. In his role as POTUS, Trump had to accept and support that fact. He swore an oath to the constitution.

We've been over my position on how fraud can occur, and how the very process of vote harvesting during the 2020 election was conducive to fraud.

Which is really what it comes down to. All the courts are corrupt anyway. The one and only person to be trusted is Donald J. Trump, a notorious con man, narcissist and pathological liar. It still boggles my mind how anyone half-way sane could vote for that person to be president, yet here we are, people even believing his most obvious, outrageous and stupid election lies. Once Trump is gone, I'm sure there will be successors. Apparently Americans have such a deep distrust in the system that they are willing to believe any made-up nonsense about it.

He doesn't need to be trust in terms of whether or not he incited insurrection... He can be a liar, a fool, a dirtbag, whatever, and it is still obvious that he never incited an insurrection.

To remove him from the ballot for an illegitimate reason is a violation of the democratic process and thus a violation of everyone's rights.

The fact that you think this is relevant shows the desperation of your position.

What's depressing about all this, is that none of that distrust is channeled into anything productive. In particular, Americans seem to be unaware of how their silly electoral system feeds all this nonsense. Basically, the US needs 3 reforms sooner than later:
- Ranked choice voting for the Senate.
- Multi-member district ranked choice voting for the House.
- Split electoral votes for the presidential election (i.e. each state splits its electors according to popular vote).

It was designed so that smaller states would still feel invested in the Presidential elections and not feel like they are at the mercy of large population centers....

Some of these ideas are not bad and I do not dispute them.

It doesn't matter. Every child knows it's Nazi rhetoric and Trump used it for a reason.

If it is authentic Nazi rhetoric, then, and every child knows it... How come a huge amount of people deny it as Nazi rhetoric, and are even persuaded by it?

Deep questions there for you - tee off!

The 1st amendment doesn't apply due to the 14th amendment. Besides, the American idea of liberty is that only the government can restrict your freedom. Unfortunately, that doesn't pass the reality test.

Yes, you are right: corporations and other entities should face regulations to maximize the liberty of the individual in terms of positive freedoms.

[Unthinking Majority]

Even if we assume that Jan 6 was an insurrection and rebellion, did Donald Trump take part? Clearly he whipped them up into a frenzy based on a bunch of "stop the steal" lies, but "insurrection" denotes violence per its definition, and i believe rebellion does also given the meaning of the word in the American historical context. Trump didn't participate in violence and didn't explicitly advocate for violence. He's not quite that stupid, and not an overtly violent person.

Trump is a criminal, he should not be allowed to run as POTUS, he should be in jail, he made every attempt to overturn valid election results and defraud the American people, but i'm not sure they'll get him on the 14th amendment as its written.

[Unthinking Majority]

I think it will not be successful.

Probably not. But any American who defends the constitution and cares about the democracy of the US should throw up any lawful barriers they could to prevent Trump from becoming POTUS again, even if they ultimately fail. If there's a chance you take it. He tried every legal challenge he could to overturn the election, so Americans should try every legal challenge to his candidacy in turn. The man is extremely dangerous to the republic. His policy positions aren't even relevant at this point, he's an authoritarian.

[Verv]

Probably not. But any American who defends the constitution and cares about the democracy of the US should throw up any lawful barriers they could to prevent Trump from becoming POTUS again, even if they ultimately fail. If there's a chance you take it. He tried every legal challenge he could to overturn the election, so Americans should try every legal challenge to his candidacy in turn. The man is extremely dangerous to the republic. His policy positions aren't even relevant at this point, he's an authoritarian.

I disagree that he is that dangerous to the Republic - he is far less dangerous than the people trying to set a precedent that giving a speech to a crowd prior to them having a violent protest/riot is grounds to be branded an insurrectionist and barred from holding office...

Not to mention people who deplatformed him from social media - the sitting US President treated like his mean tweets are a threat to democracy is absurd because we are a country of laws, laws that he cannot actually break with impunity...

The various failed impeachments undermined democracy more than Trump, as well, because it has created a new precedent of subjecting everyone to legal inquisitions that are frivolous and laws become unequally enforced...

So you hate his policies and think he's an idiot... Fair! But we see the ultimate power of Trump right here: he takes people who even have a hobby of loving politics and strips them of all sense of objectivity and fairness. He reveals that principled people become stubborn partisans without a shred of dignity when someone they really hate holds power... And that has made me fear for the future of America.

[Rugoz]

We've been over my position on how fraud can occur, and how the very process of vote harvesting during the 2020 election was conducive to fraud.

Your position or Trump's doesn't matter.

It's up to the courts to decide whether (relevant) fraud did occur, and they decided it did not. Hence Biden was the president elect. The president and every other official has to accept that.

He doesn't need to be trust in terms of whether or not he incited insurrection... He can be a liar, a fool, a dirtbag, whatever, and it is still obvious that he never incited an insurrection.

If the most powerful person in the country says a 1000 times the election was fraudulent, stolen, the count must be stopped, we must take the country back, fight like hell, etc., he's responsible when shit goes down. That's the basic common sense position.

When you say Trump never incited an insurrection, you're implicitly assuming he's a babbling fool nobody actually takes seriously. Or are you suggesting people should just stand by and do nothing while a coup is ongoing?

It was designed so that smaller states would still feel invested in the Presidential elections and not feel like they are at the mercy of large population centers....

That's why I didn't say a national popular vote, but every state splitting electors based on the state's popular vote. Votes in smaller states would still carry a larger weight. That said, the outcome would be closer to a national popular vote than with the current winner-takes-all system, which is why the GOP will never agree to it.

Some of these ideas are not bad and I do not dispute them.

It's mostly the GOP that is opposed to them. Some red states have explicitly banned ranked choice voting.

If it is authentic Nazi rhetoric, then, and every child knows it... How come a huge amount of people deny it as Nazi rhetoric, and are even persuaded by it?

Just because Nazi=evil and nobody wants to be seen as evil doesn't mean Nazi rhetoric cannot be persuasive.

[wat0n]

Applying section 3 of the 14th Amendment when the insurrection trial is still ongoing doesn't seem the right way to deal with this issue, for the reasons mentioned earlier ITT.

If Trump is found guilty, it would apply. And if he's found guilty of "just" inciting an insurrection, he is still ineligible for holding any federal office due to the Insurrection Act even if section 3 is not applicable (this does seem a much more likely outcome to me).

But this isn't the only or even the most likely case to end in a conviction. Trump was recorded pressuring the Georgia Secretary of State to "find" votes, this flagrant crime (being tried under Georgia's RICO Act) is the trial where I see Trump being most likely to be found guilty of a felony. I would expect this case to end up undoing Trump tbh.

[Rich]

You can perhaps incite or help to incite a riot. You can rarely if ever incite an insurrection, An insurrection needs to be planned. Normally an insurrection seeks to change the government, while here Trump was already head of government. Now while it is possible to have internal coups, nothing about this event remotely qualifies it as an insurrection or a coup. I see calling it an insurrection pathetic childish narcissism. Its just another case of Trumps performance art provocation working.

Which is really what it comes down to. All the courts are corrupt anyway.

Meant as sarcasm obviously but essentially correct. These sort of over ambitious constitutions always lead to corruption because they always involve judges and juries in making political choices while pretending that they are non political.

The one and only person to be trusted is Donald J.Trump, a notorious con man, narcissist and pathological liar. It still boggles my mind how anyone half-way sane could vote for that person to be president, yet here we are

Again sarcasm, but this time I agree with you. Donald Trump is not to trusted. His love of vaccines proves that beyond doubt. Trump is a poor entrpreneur, a poor administrator, he is lazy and often unserious. He is a great talent, arguably a genius, but that is as a celebrity performance artist.

What's depressing about all this, is that none of that distrust is channeled into anything productive. In particular, Americans seem to be unaware of how their silly electoral system feeds all this nonsense. Basically, the US needs 3 reforms sooner than later:
- Ranked choice voting for the Senate.
- Multi-member district ranked choice voting for the House.
- Split electoral votes for the presidential election (i.e. each state splits its electors according to popular vote).

That way you might actually get some (real) political competition going.

I agree, that the US's electoral system is awful. I don't agree with your solution but I'll go back into that at another point.

[Fasces]

But this makes sense for a guy with the username "fasces."

My man, has the army had you handling too much leaded gasoline? One too many blackouts in Itaewon? We've interacted hundreds of times on PoFo and IRC for over a dozen years and you're acting like a generic Fox grandpa with Swiss cheese brain.

Trump stans.

desiring to remove someone from the ballots because they're your political enemy.

Nope. There's countless idiots the GOP could nominate that aren't constitutionally barred.

In federal court at a specific time we need him to dispute that there was an insurrection

Generally when accused of a crime, court is the place where you argue whether or not you did it - yep.

[ingliz]

You should bring over the great legal minds that assisted China in the prosecution of Hong Kong protesters

That appears to be Donald's plan if he's elected.

"I'd be a dictator on day one."

— Donald J. Trump, Davenport, Iowa, Tue. 5 December 2023

[annatar1914]

The truth of the matter is that Trump was the political victim of a rigged election in 2020, as the establishment couldn't allow a repeat of 2016 ever again. Trump was an accident, essentially, persuaded by these same elites to run in 2016 in order to destroy the other GOP candidates, just as Trump finished off the Reform Party in the 1990s. He's not against the " Deep State" of the USA: he is a product of It. But by a fluke he won against Hillary Clinton, and here we are as in 2016.

But now, the Establishment is trying to end Trump's campaign of political revenge via lawfare, and much to their horror their Rouge agent Trump is now because of this obvious plot a certain nominee of the Republican party, and polling suggests that he'd win against Biden in the general election.

What are They to do? There are no good options left within the law should the United States Supreme Court rule in Trump's favor, and the Establishment is terrified of Trump's likely voting coalition. As well they should be.

If they try to repeat what they did in 2020, it still might not work. Biden is the millstone around their neck. The establishment's best bet is for something to happen to Biden to remove him from consideration.

Then, nominate Barack Obama as a candidate, claiming that constitutionally speaking, he can run for another series of term(s) in office as long as those terms weren't consecutive to his previous two. Obama would have a good chance of beating Trump, and would surely want to if he could be given the opportunity to try.

It won't matter if this scenario is legal or not. in this final phase of the American Republic the Law is disregarded by both sides, and is when it runs counter to their efforts. This scenario or something similar will happen, otherwise Trump wins. At this stage one side has to win over another, to avoid criminal prosecution and jail, or worse.

[Tainari88]

The truth of the matter is that Trump was the political victim of a rigged election in 2020, as the establishment couldn't allow a repeat of 2016 ever again. Trump was an accident, essentially, persuaded by these same elites to run in 2016 in order to destroy the other GOP candidates, just as Trump finished off the Reform Party in the 1990s. He's not against the " Deep State" of the USA: he is a product of It. But by a fluke he won against Hillary Clinton, and here we are as in 2016.

But now, the Establishment is trying to end Trump's campaign of political revenge via lawfare, and much to their horror their Rouge agent Trump is now because of this obvious plot a certain nominee of the Republican party, and polling suggests that he'd win against Biden in the general election.

What are They to do? There are no good options left within the law should the United States Supreme Court rule in Trump's favor, and the Establishment is terrified of Trump's likely voting coalition. As well they should be.

If they try to repeat what they did in 2020, it still might not work. Biden is the millstone around their neck. The establishment's best bet is for something to happen to Biden to remove him from consideration.

Then, nominate Barack Obama as a candidate, claiming that constitutionally speaking, he can run for another series of term(s) in office as long as those terms weren't consecutive to his previous two. Obama would have a good chance of beating Trump, and would surely want to if he could be given the opportunity to try.

It won't matter if this scenario is legal or not. in this final phase of the American Republic the Law is disregarded by both sides, and is when it runs counter to their efforts. This scenario or something similar will happen, otherwise Trump wins. At this stage one side has to win over another, to avoid criminal prosecution and jail, or worse.

The USA is full of a percentage of Trump base that reflects the values of the nation. For me that means they do not want rule of law. They want some strongman that will protect them from some liberals who are a bunch of two faced liars.

But the truth is that the base is going to lose on every front Annatar. Simply because the numbers do not add up.

It does not matter what Trump is at this time. The reality is that the people who follow him are non believers in the US Constitution or the rule of law. They want a dictator and a really ignorant one at that.

I do not know who will win. I do know that Trump is capable of creating enough of a disruption in the system to bring it down. If it goes down a civil war is a real possibility.

If there is a civil war in the USA? I think the PRC and others will position themselves to dominate, clean out the USA on the financial markets and take a leadership role internationally. The USA government will not go down lightly and quietly. A nuke offing might be how the US dumbasses will cope. Once that happens I think the environmental fallout will devastate the globe for years and years.

It will end any possibility the US had of regaining some power. Forever. But the people who love dictatorships are scared assholes mostly. Who need some stupid fascist racist capitalist fool to think for them.

So that is that. Biden is not much better. I do not like either candidate. A lot of US voters really want someone that is not Trump or Biden but what they get are total fools. That is what the system accepts. Intelligent, humble and competent leadership is Anti-American.

[Verv]

That appears to be Donald's plan if he's elected.

"I'd be a dictator on day one."

— Donald J. Trump, Davenport, Iowa, Tue. 5 December 2023

... I highly doubt there is any other context to that statement, too, right? This is just part of a longer speech about him crushing American democracy with his fist.

[annatar1914]

The USA is full of a percentage of Trump base that reflects the values of the nation. For me that means they do not want rule of law. They want some strongman that will protect them from some liberals who are a bunch of two faced liars.

But the truth is that the base is going to lose on every front Annatar. Simply because the numbers do not add up.

It does not matter what Trump is at this time. The reality is that the people who follow him are non believers in the US Constitution or the rule of law. They want a dictator and a really ignorant one at that.

I do not know who will win. I do know that Trump is capable of creating enough of a disruption in the system to bring it down. If it goes down a civil war is a real possibility.

If there is a civil war in the USA? I think the PRC and others will position themselves to dominate, clean out the USA on the financial markets and take a leadership role internationally. The USA government will not go down lightly and quietly. A nuke offing might be how the US dumbasses will cope. Once that happens I think the environmental fallout will devastate the globe for years and years.

It will end any possibility the US had of regaining some power. Forever. But the people who love dictatorships are scared assholes mostly. Who need some stupid fascist racist capitalist fool to think for them.

So that is that. Biden is not much better. I do not like either candidate. A lot of US voters really want someone that is not Trump or Biden but what they get are total fools. That is what the system accepts. Intelligent, humble and competent leadership is Anti-American.

@Tainari88 :

Be that as it very well may be, but perhaps it is time to end the experiment, and let everyone go their own way peacefully? It could still more or less develop that way.

[Fasces]

Trump has officially, as of January 4, appealed the decision to the USSC and has finally, on a single sentence in page 12, officially contested in a legal document whether or not he has committed an insurrection.

[ingliz]

@Fasces

A list compiled by Newsweek of states where challenges to Trump's candidacy are ongoing.

Colorado, Arizona, California, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Rhode Island, Alaska, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, South Carolina, Texas, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming, Vermont, and Virginia.

And one from the Guardian - Illinois.

[Fasces]

BACK IN SEPTEMBER, Enrique Tarrio, the former chairman of the Proud Boys, was sentenced to 22 years in federal prison on “seditious conspiracy” charges related to the Jan. 6, 2021, raid of the U.S. Capitol.

According to the Justice Department, the far-right group “played a central role in setting the January 6th attack on our Capitol into motion,” and as its leader, Tarrio created a special group within the militant organization called the Ministry of Self Defense that “established a chain of command, chose a time and place for their attack, and intentionally recruited others who would follow their top-down leadership and who were prepared to engage in physical violence if necessary.” As his Proud Boys were storming the Capitol and assaulting police officers, Tarrio urged them on in encrypted group chats and on social media, later writing, “Make no mistake… we did this.”

The key link between the Proud Boys and the Trump campaign appears to be none other than Roger Stone, a longtime Republican operative dating back to the days of Richard Nixon who Ted Cruz once called “Trump’s henchman and dirty trickster.” Stone, one of the architects of Trump’s “Stop the Steal” campaign following his 2020 election loss, reportedly hired the Proud Boys as his security at a 2018 GOP conference in Oregon, and Tarrio has been captured on several occasions wearing a T-shirt that read, “Roger Stone is innocent.” The House Select Committee on the Jan. 6 attack revealed that Stone regularly communicated with Proud Boys members, including Tarrio, in the months leading up to the insurrection in an encrypted group chat called Friends of Stone.

And now, in a video clip provided exclusively to Rolling Stone, Stone can be seen talking with Tarrio by phone on Nov. 5, 2020, at Stone’s office in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. The clip is taken from Christoffer Guldbrandsen’s documentary A Storm Foretold, which chronicles how Stone’s “Stop the Steal” campaign led to the Jan. 6 assault on the Capitol. The film will be released in select theaters on Jan. 5.

“Stone had been busy, launching ‘Stop the Steal’ and mobilizing Trump allies and had just gotten off the phone with General Flynn, when Enrique Tarrio, the national leader of the Proud Boys, called. Tarrio’s voice was inaudible, but Stone is heard telling him that he is still waiting for an update from the campaign — before he says he needs to talk without the camera rolling,” Guldbrandsen tells Rolling Stone.

Guldbrandsen and his Danish camera crew shadowed Stone for years, gradually learning of his close ties with the Proud Boys, especially Tarrio.

“Tarrio was a fixture around Stone — helping him out, working with him on his social media, and even organizing a fundraiser for Stone just before his trial,” explains Guldbrandsen. “Stone was in close contact with Tarrio right up until the attack on Jan. 6 and after via encrypted apps.”

What Guldbrandsen wants viewers of A Storm Foretold to know is that the film “demonstrates that the most violent group at the forefront of the attack on the U.S. Capitol was closely connected to the Trump campaign through Roger Stone, Donald Trump’s friend and ally for more than 30 years.”

[Tainari88]

@Fasces

A list compiled by Newsweek of states where challenges to Trump's candidacy are ongoing.

Colorado, Arizona, California, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Rhode Island, Alaska, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, South Carolina, Texas, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming, Vermont, and Virginia.

And one from the Guardian - Illinois.

Well Ingliz, the reality is now we will find out if those conservative Judges on the SCOTUS are going to be his puppets or if they will rule via throwing it back to the states.

If he is supported then the SCOTUS is going to be his playthings for his administration.

It will be interesting.

[wat0n]

Well Ingliz, the reality is now we will find out if those conservative Judges on the SCOTUS are going to be his puppets or if they will rule via throwing it back to the states.

If he is supported then the SCOTUS is going to be his playthings for his administration.

It will be interesting.

You could make the case the GOP would be better off if the SCOTUS ruled against Trump. I mean, he may be the favorite among Republican voters but he's one of the worst options for everyone else.

Someone like Nikki Haley has a better chance against Biden than Trump.

[Tainari88]

You could make the case the GOP would be better off if the SCOTUS ruled against Trump. I mean, he may be the favorite among Republican voters but he's one of the worst options for everyone else.

Someone like Nikki Haley has a better chance against Biden than Trump.

The GOP Republican party is having difficulty because the demographics are changing.

BTW, Wat0n, I am studying Chilean history a lot. It is interesting. I do not know when I will finish the book I am reading on it. Mapuche is a big influence in Chile. The Chilean indigenous history with los mapuches is interesting too. Something distinctive about the Chilean mix of qualities. I always loved all the Chilean cultural things I have run across over the years. The language is interesting. Chilenismos. I had to get used to it. I had a friend from Chile I was friends with for years. She moved to NYC. She got a PhD in environmental science and creative writing too. Very bright girl. She had a son. I think she lives in Oregon now.

Interesting how Chileans love Sandwiches a lot. Lol. They love all kinds of sandwichitos. Lol.

Great seafood dishes. But they love mayonnaise a lot eh? Vinitos too.