Telegraph: "EU should admit Ukraine to pay for its reconstruction" - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15284978
Telegraph wrote:The EU is too selfish to make Ukraine a member
Brussels might promise to admit Kyiv, but doing so would be much too costly for France and Germany

RICHARD KEMP
29 August 2023 • 7:32pm

‘Enlargement [of the European Union] is no longer a dream,” said Charles Michel, president of the European Council, in Slovenia this week. “It is time to move forward.” It is rare I find myself agreeing with a Brussels bureaucrat, but on this he is absolutely right: the EU should be bold and accept new members by 2030. And Ukraine should be chief among them.

Yet, as Mr Michel must know, it is a false hope. The chances of the EU admitting a country the size of Ukraine or any of the other candidates further east, such as Moldova, is a fantasy, and for two reasons: the consequences for France and Germany’s power within the bloc, and the sheer financial cost for an organisation not known for its open-hearted charity.

Let’s consider the economic impact first. Were it to join, Ukraine would be the poorest member of the EU by some margin, with a per capita income half of that of Bulgaria. Taking into account the economic damage sustained from Putin’s war and the astronomic costs of post-war reconstruction, Ukraine would suck in eye-watering quantities of the EU’s development aid spending, already around one quarter of the total budget.

Then there is the EU’s largest budgetary item: agricultural subsidies. With 55 per cent of its land used for arable farming, Ukraine has one of the largest agricultural sectors in Europe and its farmers would be entitled to a huge slice of Common Agricultural Policy cash – all presumably at the expense of France, which receives the largest share of all member states.
Ukrainian membership would also very likely deprive funds from other poorer members: Romania, Hungary, Greece and Poland chief among them. Some current net beneficiaries like Czechia and Portugal would likely become net contributors overnight. To reduce some of the impact, the richest countries, such as France and Germany, would have no choice other than to dramatically step up their budget contributions – a daunting prospect at a time of such great economic turmoil and with anti-EU movements growing among some electorates.

More fatal than that, however, is that the admission of Ukraine would also shift the traditional balance of power in the EU, which Germany and France have effectively ruled since the beginning. Ukraine would become the fifth largest member of the EU by population, giving it immense power in the qualified majority system within the bloc, which takes account both of the number of states voting and their population size.

There is already friction within the EU between Western and Eastern members, not least over social issues, on which the former Soviet countries are more culturally conservative and resistant to growing Western liberalism. The addition of another numerically powerful Eastern European member, which Western leaders fear could gang up with Poland and other countries against the status quo, would add to concerns in Berlin, Paris and Brussels.

The reality is that none of these fundamental tensions stands a chance of being resolved without serious reform of the EU’s budget and decision-making processes, including removal of national vetoes over key issues such as security, foreign policy and social reform. Treaty changes are always notoriously hard to accomplish within the EU. With some existing members standing to lose so much both in terms of economic benefits and national sovereignty, the far-reaching changes necessary to admit Ukraine would certainly take many years and perhaps ultimately prove unachievable.

Emmanuel Macron, the French president, and Olaf Scholz, the German chancellor, have both made it clear that Ukraine’s accession could take decades. All of the leaders that granted candidate status to Kyiv last June likely think the same, recognising that this would be an issue for their successors and not for them.

But there is probably another, equally selfish, reason why the EU has been holding out the false hope of membership. It may be a carrot to lure Ukraine into ceding territory to Russia, along the same lines as suggested by the Nato Secretary General’s chief of staff, who recently said membership of the alliance could be granted in exchange for a peace deal with Putin.

This ridiculous thinking shows how desperate some within Nato and the EU are to see an end to this conflict, even if it means handing victory to Moscow. The idea that Ukraine can be bought off by an offer of EU membership, which Kyiv will privately recognise is unlikely to materialise for many years, if at all, is delusional.

In any case, whatever he says to the contrary, Putin is not going to countenance Ukraine as an EU member, any more than as a member of Nato, even if he holds on to a chunk of its eastern territory. His greatest fear is not a defensive military alliance but democracy and prosperity, which his totalitarian regime cannot offer to the Russian people, especially on his own doorstep. His acceptance of such terms would be about as reliable as his undertakings of safe passage to Prigozhin.

The greatest service the EU can do for the people of Ukraine is not to hold out the vain hope of membership at some undefined point in the future, but to make it clear to Putin that it will stand with Ukraine until he is driven out of the country, and provide the finance and weaponry Kyiv needs to finish the job. So far Europe has fallen well short.


Richard Kemp is the resident military analyst for the Torygraph, a war-advocate that has been cheeleading Ukraine's counter-offensive and Boris Johnon's torpedoes through and through.

He is the leading warmonger of the UK and of course part of the Brexiteer team.

Britain torpedoed every single peace initiative including the Istanbul Agreement to the point that even the Americans have started blaming the British for the quagmire they put them in Ukraine and now Kemp wants the EU to pick up the bill for reconstructing Ukraine.

If any country should pick up the bill for Ukraine that is the UK and nobody else.
The EU already had Minsk in place and was absolutely content with it.

Besides, Ukraine is a corrupt bottomless pit that is intent to suck every billion for Zelensky and co to buy up mansions in Egypt as he did a few months ago. Ukraine does not abide by any EU threshold for admission.
#15284991
noemon wrote:Richard Kemp is the resident military analyst for the Torygraph, a war-advocate that has been cheeleading Ukraine's counter-offensive and Boris Johnon's torpedoes through and through.

He is the leading warmonger of the UK and of course part of the Brexiteer team.

Britain torpedoed every single peace initiative including the Istanbul Agreement to the point that even the Americans have started blaming the British for the quagmire they put them in Ukraine and now Kemp wants the EU to pick up the bill for reconstructing Ukraine.

If any country should pick up the bill for Ukraine that is the UK and nobody else.
The EU already had Minsk in place and was absolutely content with it.

Besides, Ukraine is a corrupt bottomless pit that is intent to suck every billion for Zelensky and co to buy up mansions in Egypt as he did a few months ago. Ukraine does not abide by any EU threshold for admission.


US people view overwhelming Russia as an enemy(2/3rds) while the remaining 30% percent view Russia as competitor with single digits below 5% or around it view Russia as an okay country. US fully supports Johnson and other hawks on the matter. This doesn't even change if you hop to Republican or Democratic party, both electorates overwhelmingly view Russia as an enemy.
#15284994
JohnRawls wrote:US people view overwhelming Russia as an enemy(2/3rds) while the remaining 30% percent view Russia as competitor with single digits below 5% or around it view Russia as an okay country. US fully supports Johnson and other hawks on the matter. This doesn't even change if you hop to Republican or Democratic party, both electorates overwhelmingly view Russia as an enemy.


Ukraine requires annual payments of 100-200 billion looking to rise to 300-400 billion as time goes by. And that's without the economic cost of the sanctions.

Does anyone care enough about Russia to pick up this tab?

Do you think the EU should pick it up? How about the Baltics, Poland, UK & Johnson themselves? Since you are so hell-bent, I am guessing you have a plan for this money. No?
#15284996
noemon wrote:Ukraine requires annual payments of 100-200 billion looking to rise to 300-400 billion as time goes by. And that's without the economic cost of the sanctions.

Does anyone care enough about Russia to pick up this tab?

Do you think the EU should pick it up? How about the Baltics, Poland, UK & Johnson themselves? Since you are so hell-bent, I am guessing you have a plan for this money. No?


EU will have no problem with losing 100 or 200 billion Euros.

LOL.

Throw some more wasted money on warmongering there as the UK sinks deeper into debt and problems due to the Brexit deal and a bad pandemic.

The UK does not want to pay.

The US has a blank check, let them pay. Lol.

No one wants to pay for war if it costs them a lot at home.

Wars are expensive in many ways. That is reality.
#15284998
Admitting the Ukraine into the EU would greatly antagonize Russia.

But that's not even the main reason the EU won't do it. It's financial. The EU of course wants to unite as many countries in Europe as possible, but it is reluctant to admit the poorer Eastern European countries. And Ukraine is especially poor and not a small country. The EU is also reluctant to admit countries with high rates of corruption, and Ukraine had and has a very corrupt government, worse than Russia. Of course the EU doesn't want to publicly admit or talk about corruption in Ukraine but they know it is there.
#15285015
noemon wrote:Ukraine requires annual payments of 100-200 billion looking to rise to 300-400 billion as time goes by. And that's without the economic cost of the sanctions.

Does anyone care enough about Russia to pick up this tab?

Do you think the EU should pick it up? How about the Baltics, Poland, UK & Johnson themselves? Since you are so hell-bent, I am guessing you have a plan for this money. No?


Ukraine needs 60 billion in financial aid a year + military equipment. 60 Billion is nothing for EU and US.
#15285017
Rugoz wrote:Ukraine needs 60 billion in financial aid a year

Let the Ukrainians pay for their own shit. They had plenty of chances to negotiate a peace and chose not to; why must I pay for their stupidity?

An EU citizen.
#15285026
JohnRawls wrote:Ukraine needs 60 billion in financial aid a year + military equipment. 60 Billion is nothing for EU and US.


Ukraine is getting 100+ billion a year right now largely from the US which is not enough to do anything at all, it requires annual payments of 300-500 billion to achieve something and that kind of money for its reconstruction.

What's your plan for this money John, who are you going to beg for it? You think France, Germany, Italy, Spain or Hungary would ever agree to pay this money? If you do, you are more deluded than I thought.

More importantly, your PEW research about Americans is a bad question.

The important question is not how Americans see Russia in the middle of a war, but how do Americans want to see Russia? ;)

While Republicans and Trump are certain they will stop funding, the Democrats themselves are getting prepared to do so also.
#15285033
noemon wrote:A Swiss, a Brit, and an Estonian walk into a bar in Brussels... :lol:

I'm guessing Rugoz and John have already convinced their countries to fund the war & reconstruction on their behalf.


Yes. It is in our best interest to do so.

In the greater scheme of things, I heard a lot of "EU IS DYING", "EUROPE IS WEAK" but for some reason EU/European Western ideal is expanding year on year adding more states every decade and even with UK leaving they are having massive regrets.

Those two things do not compute in my head.
#15285035
ingliz wrote:@JohnRawls

Tony Blair's doing.

And the English policy for Europe has always been fuck up the EU for their master, the Americans.

Nothing's changed.


Ok, UK is UK i get it.

The thing that doesn't compute though is more like people who are saying "EU IS WEAK, DYING, INSERT REASON HERE WHY EU IS BAD AND FEEBLE" are also saying that EU is expanding and taking in more states, territory and spreading its influence further.

There is a severe contradiction here.

Small note, it is not just EU but European Western ideals of sorts.
#15285036
JohnRawls wrote:
Ok, UK is UK i get it.

The thing that doesn't compute though is more like people who are saying "EU IS WEAK, DYING, INSERT REASON HERE WHY EU IS BAD AND FEEBLE" are also saying that EU is expanding and taking in more states, territory and spreading its influence further.

There is a severe contradiction here.

Small note, it is not just EU but European Western ideals of sorts.


Similar to "the dollar is dying", etc. etc.

It's such a privilege to cry about decline that is not happening.
#15285038
noemon wrote:Ukraine is getting 100+ billion a year right now largely from the US which is not enough to do anything at all, it requires annual payments of 300-500 billion to achieve something and that kind of money for its reconstruction.

What's your plan for this money John, who are you going to beg for it? You think France, Germany, Italy, Spain or Hungary would ever agree to pay this money? If you do, you are more deluded than I thought.

More importantly, your PEW research about Americans is a bad question.

The important question is not how Americans see Russia in the middle of a war, but how do Americans want to see Russia? ;)

While Republicans and Trump are certain they will stop funding, the Democrats themselves are getting prepared to do so also.


I don't know where you getting your does of propaganda from but this is total aid:

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-agai ... t-tracker/

Total as of end of MAY 2023 is 165 billion out of which around ¬100-105 billion financial and ¬60-65 billion military.

Most financial aid for 2nd year was already provided since financial aid is provided in advance as expected. Many analysts I heard say that financial aid for Ukraine is steady at 60billion a year/5 billion a month.

I am not sure where you taking your quadzillion numbers from but good luck, no data I have seen suggests that as of right now.
Last edited by JohnRawls on 30 Aug 2023 12:43, edited 1 time in total.
#15285039
ingliz wrote:@JohnRawls

"European Western ideals"

The problem is many of the Eastern States don't share those ideals.


:lol:


Poland is a Liberal Democracy, the only non-democratic state that we might right now have in EU is Hungary and that is mostly an Orban and his cronies problem and their control of the media.
#15285043
JohnRawls wrote:a Liberal Democracy

Poland is an illiberal democracy. The governing Law and Justice party is intent on turning it into "a Potemkin democracy, an empty simulacrum of genuine self-government," to quote an article in The Atlantic.

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