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#15275667
late wrote:That was painfully stupid, I am embarrassed for you.
Et tu late? Do you see a problem with this law? Is protecting children now a bad thing to you? You're the one who should be embarrassed for yourself.

As usual @Pants-of-dog, everything you said is bullshit pushed by a Woke cult. You're a good cultist. You have all the rhetoric memorized.
#15275669
Godstud wrote:
Et tu late? Do you see a problem with this law? Is protecting children now a bad thing to you? You're the one who should be embarrassed for yourself.

As usual @Pants-of-dog, everything you said is bullshit pushed by a Woke cult. You're a good cultist. You have all the rhetoric memorized.



You've taken a bizarre Right wing thing. This isn't about protecting children, it's the actual cult trying to create an American Taliban.
#15275671
Yes, there is also a long history of trying to demonize and silence opposition by accusing them of preying on children.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/05 ... heory.html

And it has not gone away.

https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/what ... -community
#15275673
On the other hand, it is objectively true that a fair amount of postmodern philosophers - some who indeed were foundational to the field, who came up with much of the current ideology of the wokes - believed children can consent to sex at any age and campaigned for abolishing age of consent laws.

Wiki wrote:In 1977, a petition was addressed to the French parliament calling for the abrogation of several articles of the age of consent law.[1] A number of French intellectuals—including Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze, Jacques Derrida, Louis Aragon, Roland Barthes, Simone de Beauvoir, Jean-Paul Sartre, Félix Guattari, Michel Leiris, Alain Robbe-Grillet, Philippe Sollers, Jacques Rancière, Jean-François Lyotard, Francis Ponge, Bernard Besret [fr] and various prominent doctors and psychologists—signed the petition.[2] In 1979 two open letters were published in French newspapers defending individuals arrested under charges of statutory rape, in the context of reformation of age of consent laws.

Many of the signatories – including, but not limited to Foucault, Danet and Hocquenghem – later argued in favor of legalizing sex with children, claiming a child can consent - "listen to what the child says and give it a certain credence. This notion of consent is a trap, in any case. What is sure is that the legal form of an intersexual consent is nonsense. No one signs a contract before making love."[3] The same year, Michel Foucault presented to the Commission for the Revision of the Penal Code to equalize and lower the age of consent to 13.[4] In 1977[5] and 1979,[6] two open letters were published in French newspapers defending individuals arrested under charges of statutory rape. In 1977, another petition was addressed to the French parliament calling for the abrogation of several articles of the age of consent law. The laws were considered an infringement on the sexual autonomy of children.[7]
#15275675
wat0n wrote:
On the other hand, it is objectively true that a fair amount of postmodern philosophers - some who indeed were foundational to the field, who came up with much of the current ideology of the wokes - believed children can consent to sex at any age and campaigned for abolishing age of consent laws.



Sigh.

They're French.. The French are different.
#15275677
late wrote:Sigh.

They're French.. The French are different.


:eh:

They did start the field, you know

Pants-of-dog wrote:The term woke was adopted from African American Vernacular English.

As far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with postmodernism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke


Yet we all know where does the ideology behind the current meaning comes from. Ultimately that letter was just an example of deconstruction taken to its utmost extreme (in a dishonest way at that).
#15275678
The current meaning is simply a pejorative term with no substance.

As has been previously noted, people refuse to produce a definition or a clear example of this horrible “wokeness”.

It is difficult to understand how the modern definition that came about in the last few years is actually based on some obscure facts about France in the seventies.

How does this create a logical argument for the current dismantling of civil rights?
#15275679
Pants-of-dog wrote:The current meaning is simply a pejorative term with no substance.

As has been previously noted, people refuse to produce a definition or a clear example of this horrible “wokeness”.

It is difficult to understand how the modern definition that came about in the last few years is actually based on some obscure facts about France in the seventies.

How does this create a logical argument for the current dismantling of civil rights?


What civil rights are being dismantled exactly?
#15275681
Pants-of-dog wrote:The description of civil rights attacks has already been described in the thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=183656&start=20#p15275663

The thread is only three pages long, so it is difficult to believe that this is a good faith request for information.


Minors can and are barred from going to see porn movies, attending gun shows, entering into bars and taking or offering sexual services, is any of that a civil rights violation?

The transgender surgery ban is a better case, since it would still be affirmed even if a doctor recommends it. But then again, it is banned for a cisgender male taking steroids for a similar end (affirm gender) even under medical supervision and I don't see how this is a civil rights violation - even more so since the scientific evidence of the long and short term effects of gender affirming care is unclear.

HB 1069 deals with public education, governments have the right and duty to decide on the curriculum. It is not a civil rights violation for the state to bar a teacher from teaching a KKK manifesto as fact to his black students. Also not forcing students to choose pronouns is hardly a civil rights violation.

HB 1521 provides for unisex restrooms, so the facilities do have an alternative that would accommodate transgender people if it was such a big deal. If the option wasn't available I'd reconsider but it is.

I don't see how does HB 225 violate any civil rights either.
#15275682
Thank you for providing yet another example of exactly what I was claiming:

Desantis will use this vague anti-woke platform to justify civil rights abuses as a way of getting power, and self declared centrists will justify this for him.

And again, not a single concrete example of the evils of wokeness.
#15275683
Pants-of-dog wrote:Thank you for providing yet another example of exactly what I was claiming:

Desantis will use this vague anti-woke platform to justify civil rights abuses as a way of getting power, and self declared centrists will justify this for him.

And again, not a single concrete example of the evils of wokeness.


Oh so you are not willing to defend your claims now that they are facing scrutiny.

One concrete example of the evils of wokeness is that it feeds the hard right in general.
#15275684
late wrote:You've taken a bizarre Right wing thing. This isn't about protecting children, it's the actual cult trying to create an American Taliban.
:lol: It is about protecting children, but then you've bought into that rubbish about "transphobia", as well. These laws are objectively good.

I am right-wing? It just appears that way when you consider how fucked up the Left has become in the last 5 years.
Image

Yes, @Pants-of-dog, Woke is now a pejorative because of what people like you have done to it. You've taken something meaning awareness of minorities and their problems and turned it into something for Social Justice Warriors, and a cult of victimhood.


Pants-of-dog wrote:And again, not a single concrete example of the evils of wokeness.


Why ‘woke’ became toxic
The trouble starts when campaigns over-reach, alienating moderate supporters. It is easy to see how this has happened. Examples include toppling statues of wartime leader Winston Churchill – cherished as a hero by many in the West – or companies being “advised” to stop using the word “mother” by LGBTQ+ charity Stonewall, which operates a “Workplace Equality Index” in the UK. To large swaths of the general public, this all screams of political correctness gone mad.

Wokeness also implies that those not in the club are asleep, deluded or wrong. This instant judgement forms a dividing line, forcing the other side to become defensive and further entrenching the debate. The moral superiority platform is hardly a way to bring sceptics on board, especially when wealthy and privileged campaigners who have co-opted wokeness do not even follow their own standards, such as celebrity Dame Emma Thompson, who flew across the world to join an Extinction Rebellion protest about climate change in London in 2019. This particular protest involved blocking bridges and roads in the heart of London, including stopping ambulances, and the public outrage was so great that it damaged its own cause, as it provided the impetus for a new Police Bill which will restrict noise levels and timings for future protests.

Another example is the turbulent debate about trans-rights and gender identity. Trans people want to be accepted for who they are, including being legally recognised as the gender they wish. The UK already provides a Gender Recognition Certificate, through which one can change their legal sex but only after time requirements and medical checks, which many in the trans community consider demeaning. Trans activists are therefore campaigning to reduce these checks in order to make it easier to legally change sex. These voices deserve to be heard. However, it is also reasonable to listen to the women who are expressing concerns about what this might mean for women in private spaces, such as in changing rooms, toilets and, more significantly, prisons and services such as domestic violence shelters.

Unfortunately, the instinct of modern wokeness seems to be to shut down such debate. The famous author of Harry Potter, J K Rowling, found herself at the centre of a woke storm after liking a tweet by Maya Forstater, who lost her job in 2019 after tweeting that “male people are not women”. The reaction was immediate, with some accusing Forstater of “killing trans people with her hate” for simply expressing an opinion. Rowling penned an emotional essay to explain her rationale for supporting Forstater. In it, she confessed that she had once been in an abusive relationship and could therefore see why single-sex spaces for vulnerable women should be protected.

British tabloid The Sun shamelessly jumped at the chance to sell more papers by producing a front-page interview with the man who had abused Rowling, under the headline: I slapped JK and I am not sorry. The woke response to Rowling’s essay had essentially provided a platform in the right-wing media for a domestic abuser to gloat about his abuse.

The aforementioned Maya Forstater took her former employer, the Washington-based, Hillary-Clinton-friendly, international development think-tank, the Center for Global Development, to an employment tribunal to contest the decision not to renew her contract. But it ruled that her views were “incompatible with human dignity”. This was recently overturned after an appeal, meeting the legal test that Forstater’s right to express her views was protected under the UK’s equality laws. So, she is protected by the law, but at the end of the day, she still lost her job.

Wokeness can also shut down good causes. In 2019, Canada’s oldest women’s domestic violence shelter, based in Vancouver, was stripped of local authority funding because it refused to accept trans women (who were biologically male). Perhaps the shelter should have handled the issue differently, as the local authority won a short-term victory in the name of “inclusion”. But the crippling of an essential service only meant further division and long-term damage to the cause.

It seems some civil society institutions have also become more radical, leaving even their original champions flustered. Simon Fanshawe, a pioneer in equality rights and founder of Stonewall, was disowned by the very charity he founded for merely highlighting concerns from women about the introduction of self-ID for trans people, signalling that the charity now mandates only rigid conformity to its new focus on gender ideology and a hierarchy of wokeness that is splitting the progressive agenda.

Social media has also raised the stakes. Where an offensive remark may once have resulted in a scolding from a friend or foe, people are now only a tweet away from being “cancelled” – a relatively new term for withdrawing one’s support for a person – which could result in losing your job or worse. Marion Millar, a “gender critical” feminist and accountant, was arrested by Scotland Police earlier this month for posting tweets expressing her views. One of them was a picture of a suffragette ribbon tied to a fence, which a complainant had described as a noose. Her tweets may have been poorly phrased and deeply offensive to some, but she now faces a potential jail term of up to six months – the same maximum length as a common assault charge against an emergency worker – with the possibility of her autistic children being taken into care.

The term ‘woke’ has become so divisive that it is harming support for the issues it is meant to be highlighting.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021 ... e-so-toxic
#15275687
Godstud wrote:[The trouble starts when campaigns over-reach, alienating moderate supporters. It is easy to see how this has happened. Examples include toppling statues of wartime leader Winston Churchill – cherished as a hero by many in the West – or companies being “advised” to stop using the word “mother” by LGBTQ+ charity Stonewall, which operates a “Workplace Equality Index” in the UK. To large swaths of the general public, this all screams of political correctness gone mad.


So the argument is that Desantis is justified in silencing academics and critics because a statue of a racist guy was not respected, a company was suggesting using more inclusive language, and a company provides a service by measuring workplace equity.

If that is the argument, then it is very poor.

also implies that those not in the club are asleep, deluded or wrong. This instant judgement forms a dividing line, forcing the other side to become defensive and further entrenching the debate. The moral superiority platform is hardly a way to bring sceptics on board, especially when wealthy and privileged campaigners who have co-opted wokeness do not even follow their own standards, such as celebrity Dame Emma Thompson, who flew across the world to join an Extinction Rebellion protest about climate change in London in 2019. This particular protest involved blocking bridges and roads in the heart of London, including stopping ambulances, and the public outrage was so great that it damaged its own cause, as it provided the impetus for a new Police Bill which will restrict noise levels and timings for future protests.


Ty quoque fallacy.

Another example is the turbulent debate about trans-rights and gender identity. Trans people want to be accepted for who they are, including being legally recognised as the gender they wish. The UK already provides a Gender Recognition Certificate, through which one can change their legal sex but only after time requirements and medical checks, which many in the trans community consider demeaning. Trans activists are therefore campaigning to reduce these checks in order to make it easier to legally change sex. These voices deserve to be heard. However, it is also reasonable to listen to the women who are expressing concerns about what this might mean for women in private spaces, such as in changing rooms, toilets and, more significantly, prisons and services such as domestic violence shelters.


So we should do something we are already doing, but this still justifies depriving people of rights.

Unfortunately, the instinct of modern wokeness seems to be to shut down such debate. The famous author of Harry Potter, J K Rowling, found herself at the centre of a woke storm after liking a tweet by Maya Forstater, who lost her job in 2019 after tweeting that “male people are not women”. The reaction was immediate, with some accusing Forstater of “killing trans people with her hate” for simply expressing an opinion. Rowling penned an emotional essay to explain her rationale for supporting Forstater. In it, she confessed that she had once been in an abusive relationship and could therefore see why single-sex spaces for vulnerable women should be protected.

British tabloid The Sun shamelessly jumped at the chance to sell more papers by producing a front-page interview with the man who had abused Rowling, under the headline: I slapped JK and I am not sorry. The woke response to Rowling’s essay had essentially provided a platform in the right-wing media for a domestic abuser to gloat about his abuse.


This has less and less to do with Desantis.

The aforementioned Maya Forstater took her former employer, the Washington-based, Hillary-Clinton-friendly, international development think-tank, the Center for Global Development, to an employment tribunal to contest the decision not to renew her contract. But it ruled that her views were “incompatible with human dignity”. This was recently overturned after an appeal, meeting the legal test that Forstater’s right to express her views was protected under the UK’s equality laws. So, she is protected by the law, but at the end of the day, she still lost her job.


So, people should not be allowed to fire people for being bigots. Anything else is wokeness gone mad.

Wokeness can also shut down good causes. In 2019, Canada’s oldest women’s domestic violence shelter, based in Vancouver, was stripped of local authority funding because it refused to accept trans women (who were biologically male). Perhaps the shelter should have handled the issue differently, as the local authority won a short-term victory in the name of “inclusion”. But the crippling of an essential service only meant further division and long-term damage to the cause.


Lol. Desantis never gave a crap about Vancouver women being beaten.

It seems some civil society institutions have also become more radical, leaving even their original champions flustered. Simon Fanshawe, a pioneer in equality rights and founder of Stonewall, was disowned by the very charity he founded for merely highlighting concerns from women about the introduction of self-ID for trans people, signalling that the charity now mandates only rigid conformity to its new focus on gender ideology and a hierarchy of wokeness that is splitting the progressive agenda.

Social media has also raised the stakes. Where an offensive remark may once have resulted in a scolding from a friend or foe, people are now only a tweet away from being “cancelled” – a relatively new term for withdrawing one’s support for a person – which could result in losing your job or worse. Marion Millar, a “gender critical” feminist and accountant, was arrested by Scotland Police earlier this month for posting tweets expressing her views. One of them was a picture of a suffragette ribbon tied to a fence, which a complainant had described as a noose. Her tweets may have been poorly phrased and deeply offensive to some, but she now faces a potential jail term of up to six months – the same maximum length as a common assault charge against an emergency worker – with the possibility of her autistic children being taken into care.[/i]
The term ‘woke’ has become so divisive that it is harming support for the issues it is meant to be highlighting.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021 ... e-so-toxic


If this is the evil of wokeness, it is not enough to justify any of the violence and attacks anti-wokeness has enabled.

But you found a British opinion piece that agrees with you. Next time, try to find a piece that is not an editorial.
#15275690
My views haven't changed. What has changed is the narrative, agendas, and ideology of the Left, in the last 5 years, @Fasces. I am still a Classic Liberal. I just agree with protection of children and not having schools as place to push ideologies that are toxic.

Children should be left out of gender and identity politics. Those are topics for adults. I don't care if colleges and Universities push this agenda. The people exposed to that are adults.

I don't care if adults want to inject themselves with hormones and take surgeries to fulfill their "identity". Be a lizard if you want.. if you are an adult. Children should be protected until they can be adults and be able to make informed decisions.

Some of my more extreme views have softened a bit, but I still believe in Liberalism as it pertains to freedom and equality.

Are you going to address the facts from the article, @Fasces, or was it too much on point?

@Pants-of-dog I am going to ignore your posts. You're an ideologue.
#15275693
Godstud wrote:My views haven't changed.


They literally have changed, though, and there's a Search feature that proves it. :lol:

Godstud wrote:Are you going to address the facts from the article, @Fasces, or was it too much on point?


There's a segment of the population who's brain broke during covid and over some piece of media they care about and when they go online to have their opinions validated and get swept away down the alt-right pipeline into more and more extreme echo chambers. It's a noticeable and well-recorded phenomenon, and nothing post-hoc articles written by people trying to justify their petty shift is worth responding too.

You hated black hobbits in the Ring of Power, got swept into anti-SJW youtube channels, and about four months later your views on racial privledge, trans rights, and etc followed suit. Same thing happened with GamerGate, with The Last Jedi, with XYZ piece of nostalgia media that whoever thought it was 'ruined'.

(literally, RoP was announced in late 2021 and your shift rightward occurred a month or two after; look at the search and scan your past posts for keywords if you don't buy it) :lol:
Last edited by Fasces on 02 Jun 2023 03:28, edited 1 time in total.
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