[Pants-of-dog]

Are you saying the IDF should let humanitarian aid convoys be caught in the crossfire, @Pants-of-dog?

No.

So you agree that the IDF is blocking comvoys all over Gaza as well at both border crossings.

Do you agree with the WFP that humanitarian operations in Gaza are near collapse and famine will spread?

Or do you think they are lying?

Also, it is Egypt who decided to close the Rafah crossing. Not Israel.

The IDF and Israeli government started making that claim right after they seized the crossing and closed it.

But since we all watched then seize the crossing in real time, this claim if theirs would need to not only support their claim but also explain what we saw.

[wat0n]

No.

So you agree that the IDF is blocking comvoys all over Gaza as well at both border crossings.

Do you agree with the WFP that humanitarian operations in Gaza are near collapse and famine will spread?

Or do you think they are lying?

If you think the IDF shouldn't let those convoys get caught in the crossfire, why would you then somehow blame them for... Well, not letting them get caught in the crossfire?

Note that this bottleneck obviously affects imports of food and medicine into Gaza too, but even then they are above pre-war levels.

The IDF and Israeli government started making that claim right after they seized the crossing and closed it.

But since we all watched then seize the crossing in real time, this claim if theirs would need to not only support their claim but also explain what we saw.

Since the Israel Defense Forces entered Rafah earlier this month — shutting down Gaza’s southern border crossing with Egypt — Cairo has reportedly refused to let fuel trucks pass through into the enclave. And two senior administration officials say Egypt has stopped all aid shipments through the Kerem Shalom crossing. Egyptian officials had for months pressed Jerusalem not to move forward with a Rafah ground invasion, claiming it would bring chaos too close to its border and threaten its security. It also pushed back against Israel taking over the Rafah border crossing.

Egypt is indeed blocking aid from its side. It turns out many tunnels crossing the border were found by the Israelis, and there are some people wondering if Egypt in fact knew about this.

[Pants-of-dog]

Note that this bottleneck obviously affects imports of food and medicine into Gaza too, but even then they are above pre-war levels.

So you think the WFP is lying.

Why would they lie?
.

Egypt is indeed blocking aid from its side.

This is doubtful. More likely, the Israeli officials are lying,

This is also contradicted by what we witnessed with the flow stopping when the IDF took the crossing.

[wat0n]

So you think the WFP is lying.

Why would they lie?

Please quote me saying I think the WFP is lying.

This humanitarian crisis is the result of Hamas' tactics of using civilians for shielding.

This is doubtful. More likely, the Israeli officials are lying,

This is also contradicted by what we witnessed with the flow stopping when the IDF took the crossing.

Are you saying Politico is lying?

Or is this just an antisemitic assumption about Israelis being inherently driven to lie?

[Pants-of-dog]

Please quote me saying I think the WFP is lying.

WFP said the flow of food through the Egypt land crossings (where most of the food comes through) has slowed to a trickle.

You are saying they are lying and food is up to pre war levels.

You must think they are lying.

Are you saying Politico is lying?

No. Politico is accurately reporting that these Israeli officials said this misinformation.

Or is this just an antisemitic assumption about Israelis being inherently driven to lie?

No.

South Africa launched a case at a UN court accusing Israel of genocide. There is a whole thread about it. The fact that the Israeli government and the IDF are cutting off the flow of food is central to that case. So they do not want to admit they are causing a famine.

Now you know!

[wat0n]

WFP said the flow of food through the Egypt land crossings (where most of the food comes through) has slowed to a trickle.

You are saying they are lying and food is up to pre war levels.

You must think they are lying.

The total imports to Gaza do not come just from Egypt.

OCHA has compiled statistics until March. It's interesting how you claim those statistics are always a lie, even after you've been proven wrong.

No. Politico is accurately reporting that these Israeli officials said this misinformation.

No.

South Africa launched a case at a UN court accusing Israel of genocide. There is a whole thread about it. The fact that the Israeli government and the IDF are cutting off the flow of food is central to that case. So they do not want to admit they are causing a famine.

Now you know!

And such central claim is debunked by the fact that food and medicine imports into Gaza have been at or above pre-war levels since December. This is according to OCHA, not Israel.

So yes, lying Jews it is.

[Pants-of-dog]

The total imports to Gaza do not come just from Egypt.

The vast majority do.

Explain how food delivery is up to some fantastic level when the main source of food is closed to a trickle.

Either the WFP is lying or you are incorrect.

OCHA has compiled statistics until March. It's interesting how you claim those statistics are always a lie, even after you've been proven wrong.

OCHA has stats into May.

limited amounts of supplies have entered Gaza since 6 May and remain largely insufficient to address the soaring needs.

https://www.unocha.org/publications/rep ... update-167

https://www.unocha.org/publications/rep ... 9-may-2024

And such central claim is debunked by the fact that food and medicine imports into Gaza have been at or above pre-war levels since December. This is according to OCHA, not Israel.

So yes, lying Jews it is.

No.

I just quoted OCHA saying “limited amounts of supplies have entered Gaza since 6 May and remain largely insufficient to address the soaring needs.”.

The idea that food levels have hit some famine avoiding level is not correct. You are misreading the stats.

Maybe you are looking at humanitarian food delivery and not total food delivery.

Humanitarian food delivery at pre war levels would be insufficient as I have explained seven or wight times already. Local food production is non-existent, while there was some happening before the war. Commercial or private food delivery is also negligible, and this was the main food imports before the war.

Go back to your stats and make sure you are not just looking at one of those.

[wat0n]

The vast majority do.

Explain how food delivery is up to some fantastic level when the main source of food is closed to a trickle.

Either the WFP is lying or you are incorrect.

Prove the vast majority do, in truckloads.

OCHA has stats into May.



https://www.unocha.org/publications/rep ... update-167

https://www.unocha.org/publications/rep ... 9-may-2024

No stats of food imports, we already know the real problem lies in distribution after supplies are imported into Gaza, due to active combat.

No.

I just quoted OCHA saying “limited amounts of supplies have entered Gaza since 6 May and remain largely insufficient to address the soaring needs.”.

The idea that food levels have hit some famine avoiding level is not correct. You are misreading the stats.

Maybe you are looking at humanitarian food delivery and not total food delivery.

Humanitarian food delivery at pre war levels would be insufficient as I have explained seven or wight times already. Local food production is non-existent, while there was some happening before the war. Commercial or private food delivery is also negligible, and this was the main food imports before the war.

Go back to your stats and make sure you are not just looking at one of those.

I am in fact looking at total food for human consumption deliveries as shown in the charts beforehand.

I recall you were bullshitting with the February figures, it turns out imports of food for human consumption in February 2024 were slightly above the pre-war February 2023 level.

[Pants-of-dog]

Prove the vast majority do, in truckloads.

It was in the quoted text.

I will assume you think the WFP is lying about that too.

No stats of food imports, we already know the real problem lies in distribution after supplies are imported into Gaza, due to active combat.

Yes, there are stats of food imports as well.

More importantly, they discuss why food distribution is a problem this week:

Challenges

Limited access to Gaza city and North Gaza has hindered plans by UNRWA to start nutrition services at four medical points.
Access constraints across Gaza continue to hamper the early detection of children and women requiring nutrition services and the scale-up of operational presence and needed support.
The delivery of nutrition services has been severely disrupted by the military incursion in Rafah and North Gaza and resulted displacement. In Rafah, WFP partners have lost access to 101 distribution points for malnutrition prevention activities and nine UNRWA nutrition sites have been similarly affected or closed.
Despite redeployment efforts, the limited number of partners present in Khan Younis is insufficient to address the increased need for nutrition services following the large-scale displacement to the area, heightening the risk of inadequate or no follow-up on the cases of children under treatment.

Note that the incursion into Rafah is cited. As I said, we al, saw in real time how the IDF blocked that food entry point,

I am in fact looking at total food for human consumption deliveries as shown in the charts beforehand.

I recall you were bullshitting with the February figures, it turns out imports of food for human consumption in February 2024 were slightly above the pre-war February 2023 level.

From May 20:

….
Particularly as 1.1 million people face catastrophic levels of hunger and Gaza remains on the brink of famine. As of 18 May, just 10 bakeries are operational out of a total of 16 being supported by our humanitarian partners. However, it is expected that these will run out of stock and fuel within days if no additional supplies are received. The other six bakeries, all of which are in southern Gaza, have been forced to cease operation due to either shortages of fuel or because of ongoing hostilities
…

https://www.unocha.org/publications/rep ... 0-may-2024

OCHA keeps saying famine is a real problem. This is true no matter how badly you misread stats.

Also:

The UN’s humanitarian agency said statistics from March showed that it was much more difficult to obtain clearance for delivering food than other aid. “Food convoys that should be going particularly to the north, where 70 percent of people face famine conditions, are ... three times more likely to be denied than any other humanitarian convoys with other kinds of material,” spokesman Jens Laerke said.

Laerke also demolished Israeli claims that aid was being allowed into Gaza in sufficient quantities, but the problem was inefficient distribution. The Israeli defense ministry agency that manages the flow of aid said on Tuesday that 741 humanitarian aid trucks had been inspected and allowed into Gaza in the past two days, but aid from only 267 trucks had been distributed by UN aid agencies, of which 146 carried food. “The aid is available, distribution is what matters,” Israel said.

Laerke said such comparisons were meaningless. He pointed out that the trucks screened by Israel were usually only half-full, an Israeli requirement. Once inside Gaza the trucks were reloaded, filling them up fully, before moving on to the warehouses. “So the numbers will never match up,” Laerke said.

“Counting day to day and comparing makes little sense because it does not take into account the delays that happen at the crossing and the further movement to warehouses.

https://www.arabnews.com/node/2490721/middle-east

[wat0n]

It was in the quoted text.

I will assume you think the WFP is lying about that too.

No, it's not.

It is also not in truckloads.

Yes, there are stats of food imports as well.

More importantly, they discuss why food distribution is a problem this week:

...Confirming my argument that the issue is, in fact, active combat.

Note that the incursion into Rafah is cited. As I said, we al, saw in real time how the IDF blocked that food entry point,

We have not.

It is Egypt who's blocking aid.

From May 20:



https://www.unocha.org/publications/rep ... 0-may-2024

OCHA keeps saying famine is a real problem. This is true no matter how badly you misread stats.

Also:


https://www.arabnews.com/node/2490721/middle-east

Half-full trucks is precisely why truckloads is the relevant unit of measure.

According to OCHA, imports into Gaza are above pre-war levels when measured in truckloads.

And your own sources now confirm that the real problem is distribution inside Gaza.

[Pants-of-dog]

No, it's not.

It is also not in truckloads.

...Confirming my argument that the issue is, in fact, active combat.

We have not.

It is Egypt who's blocking aid.

Half-full trucks is precisely why truckloads is the relevant unit of measure.

According to OCHA, imports into Gaza are above pre-war levels when measured in truckloads.

And your own sources now confirm that the real problem is distribution inside Gaza.

I cannot take this seriously.

“If we randomly empty truckloads, truckloads are. agood emasure!”

So the famine is ongoing. This is one of the interim measures. Also, Israeli government is not doing anything to stop incitement to genocide by its officials, another interim measure.

And last but definitely not least, we still have ongoing mass killings of civilians.

[wat0n]

I cannot take this seriously.

“If we randomly empty truckloads, truckloads are. agood emasure!”

So the famine is ongoing. This is one of the interim measures. Also, Israeli government is not doing anything to stop incitement to genocide by its officials, another interim measure.

And last but definitely not least, we still have ongoing mass killings of civilians.

Are you stupid or you just don't know what a truckload is?

[Pants-of-dog]

Apparently, according to the IDF, a truckload is the same if the container in the back of the ruck is empty or full.

So, a truck of humanitarian food aid can come to a checkpoint, have the contents emptied by the IDF, get all the food confiscated because it might be used for military purposes (like stone fruit!) and then the empty truck goes through and the IDF count that as a whole truckload of food.

They are either stupid and they just do not know what a truckload is, or the famine is deliberate.

[Pants-of-dog]

International Court of Justice orders Israel to immediately end military operation in Rafah

ICJ not convinced of Israeli efforts to minimize Rafah suffering, calls situation 'exceptionally grave'

The International Court of Justice on Friday ordered Israel to immediately halt its military offensive in the southern Gaza city of Rafah, but stopped short of ordering a ceasefire for the enclave.

While Israel is unlikely to comply with the order, which resulted from an appeal from South Africa, the order could ratchet up pressure on Benjamin Netanyahu's government.

ICJ president Nawaf Salam, describing the humanitarian situation in Rafah as "exceptionally grave," read the ruling as a small group of pro-Palestinian protesters demonstrated outside the court in The Hague.

Although the court has broad powers to order an end to the Israeli military campaign and any such ruling would be a blow to Israel's international standing, it does not have a police force to enforce its orders. Russia, for example, has ignored a ruling from the same court to halt its full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

.....

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7213567

It seems unlikely that the IDF and Israeli government will comply.

[wat0n]

Apparently, according to the IDF, a truckload is the same if the container in the back of the ruck is empty or full.

So, a truck of humanitarian food aid can come to a checkpoint, have the contents emptied by the IDF, get all the food confiscated because it might be used for military purposes (like stone fruit!) and then the empty truck goes through and the IDF count that as a whole truckload of food.

They are either stupid and they just do not know what a truckload is, or the famine is deliberate.

Oh so you are stupid indeed.

If you weren't, you'd bother reading that OCHA figures do not come from Israel. They come from Palestine.

And I will note OCHA has not denounced IDF soldiers have confiscated anything after crossing into Gaza. They shouldn't have since trucks have already been inspected when they cross. If they did at any relevant scale, you'd also see satellite imagery of such goods since they'd occupy quite a bit of physical space.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7213567

It seems unlikely that the IDF and Israeli government will comply.

It is unclear what was ordered. There are two ways to interpret the order, 1) that the order is for Israel to stop the Rafah offensive, 2) that the order is for Israel to stop the Rafah offensive but only insofar it violates the Genocide Convention.

The accompanying declarations emphasize this lack of clarity as two judges interpret it as 2) and one interprets it as 1).

Furthermore, the order also compels Israel to maintain the Rafah border crossing open which suggests Israel is not being ordered to withdraw from Rafah as it's not clear how can Israel maintain the border crossing open without any military presence there.

[Pants-of-dog]

OCHA figures do not come from Israel. They come from Palestine.

This seems incorrect. Israel has controlled Gaza’s borders for decades. The IDF would shoot Hamas if they showed up to count containers.

So prove it. Link and a quote.

And I will note OCHA has not denounced IDF soldiers have confiscated anything after crossing into Gaza. They shouldn't have since trucks have already been inspected when they cross. If they did at any relevant scale, you'd also see satellite imagery of such goods since they'd occupy quite a bit of physical space.

No one made any claims about confiscations.

The claim is that the IDF and Israeli government are turning away so many trucks that many parts of Gaza are suffering from famine.

You will repeat that the amount of trucks has been awesome since December, and I will once again post several articles showing that OCHA still claims not enough food is coming in, and you will insist that a table you showed weeks again says something it does not.

https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6 ... s-a-weapon

All relevant official authorities and competent UN and international institutions should officially declare famine in the Gaza Strip in light of the current rapid spread of famine and the rates of acute malnutrition and its expansion geographically and among all groups, especially among children, said 70 organisations in a joint statement on Saturday.

Food insecurity is increasing throughout the Gaza Strip due to Israel's use of starvation as a weapon of war against the Palestinian people, which the organisations said is part of a larger crime of genocide.

The organisations stated that food security levels have significantly declined as a result of the Israeli army's ground operation in Rafah City, south of the Gaza Strip, which began on 7 May and was preceded the day before by blocking the entry of humanitarian aid trucks through the Rafah crossing. Thousands of trucks on the other side of the Rafah crossing have been at a standstill for weeks and are inaccessible to the residents whose lives depend on them due to Israel's decision to starve the people of the Gaza Strip, close the crossings. and prevent the entrv of aid.

They called on Israel to act immediately to implement the precautionary measures announced by the International Court of Justice regarding the opening of the Rafah crossing in order to provide basic services and much-needed humanitarian aid for the people of Gaza.

The majority of goods entering the Gaza Strip through the Kerem Shalom (Kerem Abu Salem) crossing are intended for merchants, and the residents, many of whom have lost their livelihoods, must purchase them. Despite the limited aid provided by Israel, it is insufficient to meet the increasing needs of the growing number of displaced people in the south.

……

It is unclear what was ordered. There are two ways to interpret the order, 1) that the order is for Israel to stop the Rafah offensive, 2) that the order is for Israel to stop the Rafah offensive but only insofar it violates the Genocide Convention.

The accompanying declarations emphasize this lack of clarity as two judges interpret it as 2) and one interprets it as 1).

It is irrelevant since the IDF and Israeli government are not stopping in any fashion and seemingly have not followed Geneva Convention rules at any point in this war.

So the IDF and Israeli government are breaking international law no matter which interpretation is used.

Furthermore, the order also compels Israel to maintain the Rafah border crossing open which suggests Israel is not being ordered to withdraw from Rafah as it's not clear how can Israel maintain the border crossing open without any military presence there.

The border crossings operated without an IDF military presence until just a few weeks ago.

It was the IDF military presence that shut the crossing down.

So it is very clear that Israel and Egypt can maintain the border crossing open without any military presence there.

[wat0n]

This seems incorrect. Israel has controlled Gaza’s borders for decades. The IDF would shoot Hamas if they showed up to count containers.

So prove it. Link and a quote.

These infographics are updated on a regular basis to provide decision makers, humanitarian actors and the general public with an overview of current and past access trends impacting the humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip.

Sources: Ministry of National Economy, Border and Crossing Authority, UNRWA and Pal-Trade, Palestinian General Authority of Civil Affairs.

You really didn't read or check this, did you?

No one made any claims about confiscations.

You did just above.

It is up to you to prove it.

The claim is that the IDF and Israeli government are turning away so many trucks that many parts of Gaza are suffering from famine.

You will repeat that the amount of trucks has been awesome since December, and I will once again post several articles showing that OCHA still claims not enough food is coming in, and you will insist that a table you showed weeks again says something it does not.

And I will also repeat they're turned back due to hostilities in the ground, hostilities that have also been mentioned by OCHA itself, and not an unproven starvation plan.

https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6 ... s-a-weapon

None of those organizations are experts on the matter.

It is irrelevant since the IDF and Israeli government are not stopping in any fashion and seemingly have not followed Geneva Convention rules at any point in this war.

So the IDF and Israeli government are breaking international law no matter which interpretation is used.

It is relevant enough for the judges, who have not made any determination that Israel is committing genocide because that is left for the merits stage. Which is why two of them drew that distinction.

The border crossings operated without an IDF military presence until just a few weeks ago.

It was the IDF military presence that shut the crossing down.

So it is very clear that Israel and Egypt can maintain the border crossing open without any military presence there.

Egypt closed the crossing.

The order is for Israel to keep it open, how can it do that without a military presence there? If the crossing remained closed after Israel withdrew, would Israel be in compliance with the order?

[Pants-of-dog]

You really didn't read or check this, did you?

It seems irrelevant l

You did just above.

It is up to you to prove it.

And I will also repeat they're turned back due to hostilities in the ground, hostilities that have also been mentioned by OCHA itself, and not an unproven starvation plan.

Any mention of hostilities usually comes right after the phrase “shortages are caused by IDF and Israeli government policy” as a secondary reason for the famine.

None of those organizations are experts on the matter.

This is like an argument from authority fallacy.

It is relevant enough for the judges, who have not made any determination that Israel is committing genocide because that is left for the merits stage. Which is why two of them drew that distinction.

So we agree that the IDF are continuing their military offensive in Rafah after being told not to, as well as continuing in such a manner that it contributes to the ongoing genocide.

Egypt closed the crossing.

Show, with a link and a quote, why the border crossing closed as soon as the IDF seized it, and it is somehow Egypt at fault.

The order is for Israel to keep it open, how can it do that without a military presence there? If the crossing remained closed after Israel withdrew, would Israel be in compliance with the order?

Again, since the border was open without a military presence there…..

[wat0n]

It seems irrelevant l

It's not, it's where the imports data comes from.

You claimed it comes from Israeli sources, you're just wrong and lazy for not reading the website.

Any mention of hostilities usually comes right after the phrase “shortages are caused by IDF and Israeli government policy” as a secondary reason for the famine.

No, the reports do not say it's a secondary reason.

Their examples are if anything all related to areas inside Gaza where hostilities are ongoing.

They are blaming Israeli policy because they're blocked from accessing such areas in the first place.

This is like an argument from authority fallacy.

Are you projecting?

Why would anyone care about what they're calling for as far as famine declarations go when they lack expertise on the matter?

So we agree that the IDF are continuing their military offensive in Rafah after being told not to, as well as continuing in such a manner that it contributes to the ongoing genocide.

No, we don't agree on that.

What we do agree on is that the order is conditional on the offensive not violating the Genocide Convention, which it isn't.

Show, with a link and a quote, why the border crossing closed as soon as the IDF seized it, and it is somehow Egypt at fault.

I did ages ago.

Again, since the border was open without a military presence there…..

That doesn't mean it would reopen later.

[Pants-of-dog]

It's not, it's where the imports data comes from.

You claimed it comes from Israeli sources, you're just wrong and lazy for not reading the website.

What is the argument?

No, the reports do not say it's a secondary reason.

Their examples are if anything all related to areas inside Gaza where hostilities are ongoing.

They are blaming Israeli policy because they're blocked from accessing such areas in the first place.

The reports from OCHA, UNRWA, OXFAM, the WFP and other aid organizations have all been quoted and all have explicitly stated that the IDF and Israeli government policies are responsible for the famine

Human Rights Watch is even more explicit:

Children in Gaza have been dying from starvation-related complications since the Israeli government began using starvation as a weapon of war, a war crime, Human Rights Watch said today. Doctors and families in Gaza described children, as well as pregnant and breastfeeding mothers, suffering from severe malnutrition and dehydration, and hospitals ill-equipped to treat them.

Why would anyone care about what they're calling for as far as famine declarations go when they lack expertise on the matter?

The experts agree that famine is now happening:

O Website
> ALERTS ARCHIVE > ISSUE 97

© UNICEF
GAZA STRIP: Famine is imminent as 1.1 million people, half of Gaza, experience catastrophic food insecurity
The IPC acute food insecurity analysis conducted in December 2023 warned of a risk that Famine may occur by the end of May 2024 if an immediate cessation of hostilities and sustained access for the provision of essential supplies and services to the population did not take place. Since then, the conditions necessary to prevent famine have not been met and the latest evidence confirms that Famine is imminent in the northern governorates and projected to occur anytime between mid-March and May 2024.

According to the most likely scenario, both North Gaza and Gaza Governorates are classified in IPC Phase 5 (Famine) with reasonable evidence, with 70% (around 210,000 people) of the population in IPC Phase 5 (Catastrophe). Continued conflict and the near-complete lack of access to the northern governorates for humanitarian organizations and commercial trucks will likely compound heightened vulnerabilities and extremely limited food availability, access and utilization, as well as access to healthcare, water, and sanitation. The famine threshold for household acute food insecurity has already been far exceeded and, given the latest data showing a steeply increasing trend in cases of acute malnutrition, it is highly likely that the famine threshold for acute malnutrition has also been exceeded. The upward trend in non-trauma mortality is also expected to accelerate, resulting in all famine thresholds likely to be passed imminently.

https://www.ipcinfo.org/ipcinfo-website ... sue-97/en/

No, we don't agree on that.

What we do agree on is that the order is conditional on the offensive not violating the Genocide Convention, which it isn't.

It is directly exacerbating an ongoing famine by shutting down one of the few land crossings for humanitarian aid, which also happens to be the main conduit for food aid now

I did ages ago.

This is incorrect.

Since you refuse to clarify how it is Egypt's fault the crossing is closed, or explain why the crossing closed exactly when the IDF invaded, the logical conclusion is that the IDF is responsible for the closing of the crossing.

That doesn't mean it would reopen later.

It does.disprove the claim that an IDF presence is needed for the crossing to be open.