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By Wellsy
#15274815
Regardless, legal equality is indeed largely achieved but social problems in civil society still remain and emphasize the limitations of law in it's abstractness. Simply breaking down formal discriminations did not dismantle de jure segregation or centuries of dehumanizing a people.
https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/equality.htm
The achievement of formal political and legal equality has brought to light the impossibility of achieving substantive political and legal equality while social inequality exists. Thus today the task of achieving social equality stands before us as a real and legitimate task. But what does social equality entail?

“Equality” is an inherently abstract conception inasmuch as it implies the abstraction of some measure from two subjects which can be brought into quantitative comparison with one another. The notion of equality as equality of wealth therefore poses the measurement of a person by their property, and is therefore inherently dehumanising. Further, it implies a process of measurement and equalisation, a policeman so to speak to keep the queue in line. Critics of the redistributive notion of equality therefore have a good point. Even Amartya Sen’s[4] improved notion of distributive equality still suffers from the same defect: who has the right to administer people’s lives so as to ensure “equality of capability"?

In its actual application, equality has always meant equality of “us,” as peers, entitled to an equal “voice.” Politically this is expressed in universal adult suffrage for example, or in granting equal voice to everyone in decision-making. The notion of equality is inextricably tied up with the domain over which equality is to be measured, and this domain is necessarily some actual social subject, some self-conscious system of activity which makes decisions about its own life and grants equality of voice to its individual constituents in some way.

Even the abstract equality of all people arises from the practice of exchanging the products of each other’s labour in a single market.[5]

While nowadays there certainly exists a broad popular consciousness of equality expressing the equal moral worth of all people in the world, this remains still a very abstract conception precisely because this world market of six billion human beings still exists as only an ideal or potential unity, not as any actual decision-making subject.

Nevertheless, within any decision-making entity, the demand for equality of “voice” remains a powerful norm. It is generally not acceptable today to tolerate any circumstance which in some way limits or constrains the voice of one of the participants in a decision-making process.
...
The point is that rather than decrying the lack of (distributive) equality, we must actively use and promote notions of equality that both have traction in political arguments, and contribute to people gaining control over their own destiny.
Further, the demand for equality of participation in determining one’s own activity does not call upon a bureaucratic power to take on the role of Equaliser, but on the contrary encourages subjects to strive for self-determination in dialogue with others. It also challenges the remaining domains of legitimised status subordination in the modern world and challenges the power of those institutions which are overseeing the untenable and inhuman levels of distributive inequality we see today.

The above point being about the means to change the conditions of one's life in coordination with others, as opposed to appeals to some sort of reform purely of distribution.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/ot/zizek.htm
Therein resides the moment of truth of Lenin’s acerbic retort to his Menshevik critics: the truly free choice is a choice in which I do not merely choose between two or more options WITHIN a pre-given set of coordinates, but I choose to change this set of coordinates itself ...
This is what Lenin’s obsessive tirades against “formal” freedom are about, therein resides their “rational kernel” which is worth saving today: when he emphasizes that there is no “pure” democracy, that we should always ask who does a freedom under consideration serve, which is its role in the class struggle, his point is precisely to maintain the possibility of the TRUE radical choice. This is what the distinction between “formal” and “actual” freedom ultimately amounts to: “formal” freedom is the freedom of choice WITHIN the coordinates of the existing power relations, while “actual” freedom designates the site of an intervention which undermines these very coordinates. In short, Lenin’s point is not to limit freedom of choice, but to maintain the fundamental Choice — when Lenin asks about the role of a freedom within the class struggle, what he is asking is precisely: “Does this freedom contribute to or constrain the fundamental revolutionary Choice?”

The point being that the very coordinates are what are left out of political consideration and naturalized ideologically.
https://www.lacan.com/zizrobes.htm
It is, however, this very consequent egalitarianism which is simultaneously the limitations of the Jacobin politics. Recall Marx's fundamental insight about the "bourgeois" limitation of the logic of equality: the capitalist inequalities ("exploitations") are not the "unprincipled violations of the principle of equality," but are absolutely inherent to the logic of equality, they are the paradoxical result of its consequent realization. What we have in mind here is not only the old boring motif of how market exchange presupposes formally/legally equal subjects who meet and interact on the market; the crucial moment of Marx's critique of "bourgeois" socialists is that capitalist exploitation does not involve any kind of "unequal" exchange between the worker and the capitalist - this exchange is fully equal and "just," ideally (in principle), the worker gets paid the full value of the commodity he is selling (his labour force). Of course, radical bourgeois revolutionaries are aware of this limitation; however, the way they try to amend it is through a direct "terrorist" imposition of more and more de facto equality (equal salaries, equal health service...), which can only be imposed through new forms of formal inequality (different sorts of preferential treatments of the under-privileged). In short, the axiom of "equality" means either not enough (it remains the abstract form of actual inequality) or too much (enforce "terrorist" equality) - it is a formalist notion in a strict dialectical sense, i.e., its limitation is precisely that its form is not concrete enough, but a mere neutral container of some content that eludes this form.

The problem here is not terror as such - our task today is precisely to reinvent emancipatory terror. The problem lies elsewhere: the egalitarian political "extremism" or "excessive radicalism" should always be read as a phenomenon of ideologico-political displacement: as an index of its opposite, of a limitation, of a refusal effectively to "go to the end." What was the Jacobin's recourse to radical "terror" if not a kind of hysterical acting out bearing witness to their inability to disturb the very fundamentals of economic order (private property, etc.)? And does the same not go even for the so-called "excesses" of Political Correctness? Do they also not display the retreat from disturbing the effective (economic etc.) causes of racism and sexism? Perhaps, then, the time has come to render problematic the standard tropes, shared by practically all the "postmodern" Leftists, according to which political "totalitarianism" somehow results from the predominance of material production and technology over the intersubjective communication and/or symbolic practice, as if the root of the political terror resides in the fact that the "principle" of instrumental reason, of the technological exploitation of nature, is extended also to society, so that people are treated as raw stuff to be transformed into a New Man. What if it is the exact opposite which holds? What if political "terror" signals precisely that the sphere of (material) production is denied in its autonomy and subordinated to political logic? Is it not that all political "terror," from Jacobins to Maoist Cultural Revolution, presupposes the foreclosure of production proper, its reduction to the terrain of political battle? In other words, what it effectively amounts to is nothing less than the abandonment of Marx's key insight into how the political struggle is a spectacle which, in order to be deciphered, has to be referred to the sphere of economics ("if Marxism had any analytical value for political theory, was it not in the insistence that the problem of freedom was contained in the social relations implicitly declared 'unpolitical' - that is, naturalized - in liberal discourse"). [14]
User avatar
By Godstud
#15274831
Wellsy wrote: Simply breaking down formal discriminations did not dismantle de jure segregation or centuries of dehumanizing a people.
Yes, it does. Generations of equality have done it, and if we were to take it seriously that it takes centuries, then we're ALL recovering from dehumanization.

My Slavic and Irish ancestors were enslaved. I am still suffering from it, according to this nonsensical theory.

You can't remove self-imposed segregation. Humans are tribal and your argument ignores that sociological fact. Can you make an argument that doesn't require a translator? I really hate parsing thru a wall of text to find

Black people in USA and Western nations have complete autonomy and control of their own destinies. Pretending otherwise is just the Woke promotion of victimhood which is what is popular right now amongst the brain-washed idiots coming out of our colleges, now.

USA had a black President. USA has equal representation in American politics. There are no racist policies that target black people. In fact you can find instances of favouritism dues to Affirmative Action.

Racism and sexism will always exist. When I say they are over, I mean that they are the exception. When MLK did his speech, there was a long ways to go. According to your lot, they'll always be victims. :knife: The soft racism of low expectations.
#15275240
MLK Jr wrote:It is often said that the people may steal anything from you except dreams; the right to see things they don't see.

Totalitarian governments & ideologies will even try to steal away dreams, controlling thought and stamping out ideas.

That is one good gauge how you can tell if it is a totalitarian government/ideology.
#15275262
Godstud wrote:Yes, it does. Generations of equality have done it,


So racism ended generations ago? Lol

Canada is still committing genocide against Indigenous people, but somehow that is not racism. Or an exception. Or not real. Or something.
User avatar
By Godstud
#15275301
Pants-of-dog wrote:So racism ended generations ago? Lol
It's been over 2 generations since MLK, and people of every race, in most of the West, have the same rights and privileges as everyone else. There is no segregation, stigma against being with people of other races, etc. unless you consider exceptions. Exceptions will always exist.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Canada is still committing genocide against Indigenous people, but somehow that is not racism. Or an exception. Or not real. Or something.
Go away. You perpetuating a lie does not make it real. You're delusional.
User avatar
By Godstud
#15280029
Do you know what a generation is, @MLK Jr ? It's been over 50 years since MLK, and things HAVE improved substantially. You'd have to be lying to deny the reality.

Is it perfect? No. Will it ever be perfect? Doubtful. Ignorance and stupidity are part of the human condition.
User avatar
By Godstud
#15283591
@Pants-of-dog
No genocide.

No human remains found in excavation of Manitoba church basement
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ex ... toba-chief

Manitoba First Nation considers further excavations after church dig for unmarked graves
Though a number of items were recovered during a four-week excavation, including animal bones and debris from a fire, none suggested evidence of human remains, said Chief Derek Nepinak of Minegoziibe Anishinabe.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba ... -1.6943044

Lies, in other words. They won't allow excavations of other sites(like in Kamloops) because the evidence would prove it was all a false narrative. No one likes the truth when it doesn't support their story.

There were no mass graves. The lie about the graves is being perpetuated and the search for truth is being stifled. Yes, bad things happened at these residential schools, but there are no mass grave sites.
#15283650
I understand why @Godstud and other Canadians do not want to look at the evidence of genocide. I do not want to look at it. Who wants to read first hand accounts of women and children being treated that way? No one.
User avatar
By Godstud
#15283721
Fuck off with the lies @Pants-of-dog. There is no ongoing genocide and the evidence you present is not evidence but a false narrative meant to create victim status amongst people who are no longer victims.
#15307998
Godstud wrote:MLK's dream has been achieved.


"I dream that I will be murdered, like many other civil rights leaders!"

"I dream that white people will colonize the Middle East and then use this entity to destroy Arab nations all over North Africa and the Levant!"

"I dream that white nations will rise up and pay Kenyans to invade Haiti in order to protect the mining operations of rich white people!"

Or did you mean that "MK Ultra's" dream has been achieved?
User avatar
By Godstud
#15308041
QatzelOk wrote:"I dream that I will be murdered, like many other civil rights leaders!"
He was killed over 50 years ago. Racism, despite what people like you and other think, is mostly gone. There are no racist policies or systems in place, and most people aren't racist.

QatzelOk wrote:"I dream that white people will colonize the Middle East and then use this entity to destroy Arab nations all over North Africa and the Levant!"
No "white people" have colonized the Middle East, you racist dipshit.

QatzelOk wrote:"I dream that white nations will rise up and pay Kenyans to invade Haiti in order to protect the mining operations of rich white people!"
You calling them "white nations" just shows how much you have been brainwashed into self-hating. It also shows how racist you are by calling nation "white nations" when they aren't. Also, let's absolve the Kenyans from any accountability because of the racism of low expectations. They are simply too dumb not to think for themselves, eh, @QatzelOk?

You're a victim, @QatzelOk. You've been trained into thinking so by your ideology of SJW/Woke.
#15308044
Wellsy wrote:One of my favorite casual examples is this bitby Roy Wood Jr. Where the audience answers for him from 3:40 onwards.


100% on the bag/receipt thing. I ALWAYS ask for a receipt, especially if no bag is given. Always make sure the receipt is sort of hanging out so that it's clearly visible as you walk out.

And yes, I have been stopped at the exit of a shop, and asked if I paid for the item I have. I have also been asked to lift my shirt, and empty my pockets while exiting a shop.

Same reason I cross the street when I see white women on the side walk. :lol: :hmm: I know that I'm perceived as a threat by default.
#15308046
Rancid wrote:100% on the bag/receipt thing. I ALWAYS ask for a receipt, especially if no bag is given. Always make sure the receipt is sort of hanging out so that it's clearly visible as you walk out.

And yes, I have been stopped at the exit of a shop, and asked if I paid for the item I have. I have also been asked to lift my shirt, and empty my pockets while exiting a shop.

Same reason I cross the street when I see white women on the side walk. :lol: :hmm: I know that I'm perceived as a threat by default.


They should respect you for being the man with the Penis Campaign. I am shocked that they do not bow down to your greatness!

My son got stopped all the time. He also got his life threatened and accused of a lot of shit he never did. It was about being six feet and three inches tall and being a dark skinned African American young man. Nothing else.

You really know there is racism in the USA on an intellectual level. But it is very much a visceral level when you are followed all through a store and are accused of stealing, and cops almost shooting and so on and so forth. I am tired of it.

But racism is a part of many societies, not just the USA. Mexico has issues with how they treat indigenous Mexicans. It is not about how people look in Mexico. It is about what culture you are from, and what language you speak and what traditions you uphold. Being indigenous means you are poor or without power. And therefore you are treated accordingly.

But to say that the racism problem is solved is not correct and never will be. You have to be honest about people being taught to discriminate. You have to be taught racism. It is not something innately acquired by automatic decrees. You got to be told over and over again, do not respect these people. They are not your equals. Not as human as you are.

I like Toni Morrison's responses about racism in society. The many white people live kind of without a real understanding of it. Or they live in a society that favors them in some way and they like that. As long as racism has some kind of useful purpose for a society it is used to benefit the ones using it.

Toni Morrison:



She is right about the powerful utilitarian purposes. The malice is there.

Unless you have persuaded yourself that they are not people, or their lives are not worthy, or you have a mission.
#15308053
On the day that a group of black people carrying AR-15's, AK-47's and Glocks enters a state capitol and aren't all immediately executed is the day that I will believe that racism is over in America. But not before.
#15308067
Saeko wrote:On the day that a group of black people carrying AR-15's, AK-47's and Glocks enters a state capitol and aren't all immediately executed is the day that I will believe that racism is over in America. But not before.


MAGA people exist precisely because they feel at home in the society they live in. They feel the country is theirs and the system works for them, and if it might change and might work for the ones they see as the enemy? Then they will be dedicated to denial of that person's Americanness, and also just see the loss of them having power over the rest of society that is not them, as a big threat that has to be dealt with.

It is about loss of power. They chant, THEY WILL NOT REPLACE US. They fear being replaced. By liberals. Socialists. Black people, Asians, Jews, Catholics, Latinos, Gays, Peaceniks that hate guns. Whoever. Replaced by people who used to not be there in the center and marginalized, and now they think they can run THEIR COUNTRY. We are gonna show 'em. That is who you are dealing with.
#15308146
Rancid wrote:Unearned and undeserved power at that.


Lol. They wrote the narrative of the Pioneers and the Pilgrims and the stories of all the men on the currency of the US dollar. White, European rooted men with power and property. Everyone else is taking advantage of them. That is why when Trump says that America is being taken advantage of by China, Russia, Muslims, Black criminals, vermin Latinos, whining white women who's pussy he grabbed, and fat African American Attorneys in Georgia, and infidels and sinners? They need to show them who is boss AGAIN.

How did the US take over land and built its wealth? With wars. Indian wars. American Revolutionary Wars, and the American Civil War, and etc etc. WARS. GUNS. Force.

They have toppling governments in the Middle East with the Shah of Iran, undermining the Soviet Union with the Taliban, and propping up making deals with the Saudis, and so on. Doint it all with tremendous lack of ethics and using violence as a weapon for a long time.

They wrote their own story with that Rancid. En el pecado esta la penitencia. In the sin is the penitence. You heard that old saying, 'Those who live by the sword die by the sword.' It means you use the same violent stuff against your enemies and you will wind up making it a habit. If war is your drug? You can die easily of the overdose.

The US government needs to withdraw from propping up wars allover the world. And just dedicate itself to rebuilding its domestic deficits.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15308149
Tainari88 wrote:
Lol. They wrote the narrative of the Pioneers and the Pilgrims and the stories of all the men on the currency of the US dollar. White, European rooted men with power and property. Everyone else is taking advantage of them. That is why when Trump says that America is being taken advantage of by China, Russia, Muslims, Black criminals, vermin Latinos, whining white women who's pussy he grabbed, and fat African American Attorneys in Georgia, and infidels and sinners? They need to show them who is boss AGAIN.

How did the US take over land and built its wealth? With wars. Indian wars. American Revolutionary Wars, and the American Civil War, and etc etc. WARS. GUNS. Force.

They have toppling governments in the Middle East with the Shah of Iran, undermining the Soviet Union with the Taliban, and propping up making deals with the Saudis, and so on. Doint it all with tremendous lack of ethics and using violence as a weapon for a long time.

They wrote their own story with that Rancid. En el pecado esta la penitencia. In the sin is the penitence. You heard that old saying, 'Those who live by the sword die by the sword.' It means you use the same violent stuff against your enemies and you will wind up making it a habit. If war is your drug? You can die easily of the overdose.

The US government needs to withdraw from propping up wars allover the world. And just dedicate itself to rebuilding its domestic deficits.


Yes, however, I was getting at something more simpler than that. No (or just a little) history required.

This unearned entitlement manifests itself a few different ways. This is one example:

"My grandad fought in WWII". It is stated as though that entitles them to more than other Americans. It's rather odd, because it is their grandfather that fought in the war, not them. Grandad might be entitled to something, but not grandson. They didn't fight for shit. It reminds me of Shaq the basketball player talking about his kids. One of his kids was bragging about how much money he has to others at school, etc. etc. IIRC Shaq put out a tiktok (or similar) basically saying "I'm the one that is rich, not you". :lol:.. This is what entitlement looks like on a more day to day level. It fosters a culture of separateness between different people. Built on a foundation of bullshit basically.

All the while, I pay 5x the taxes that Mr. "My grandad fought in WWII" pays into the system. Perhaps I've contributed more to America than that guy.

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