[ness31]

Go buy yourself that projector Drlee. There is no point talking to you about the nuances of this argument and why we should attempt to remove the coercive burden of vaccination from the sphere of minors.

[Godstud]

@Drlee is absolutely right on the money. Your argument @ness31 is for the individual right to be foolish supersedes society's right to protect itself from fools.

Your coercion argument is fucking nonsense.

[ness31]

Yeah ok.

Meanwhile I’ve just started reading the study from the Danes. Salient point number 1

Only specialists in child psychiatry diagnose autism and assign a diagnostic code, and all diagnoses are recorded in the Danish Psychiatric Central Register.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021134

Can the same be said of all other countries?

Edit- The Danes rank number 4 in the Rule of Law index and they don’t coerce vaccination.

Edit - that was actually not a bad study to read. The quote below was probably the only part I don’t really understand

We had no information on the presence or absence of a family history of autism, which could explain our negative findings only if families with a history of autism avoided MMR vaccination. If so, we would expect to have found high relative risks at the beginning of the study period, before the hypothetical link between vaccination and autism was publicized. This was not the case. We had no information on whether the children with autism had regression, and thus we could not perform a subgroup analysis. However, the fact that the overall relative risk of autism or an autistic-spectrum disorder was less than 1.0 does not support the possibility of a subgroup of vulnerable children.

I was also introduced to the concept of “person years”.. pft

[ness31]

Delete

[Drlee]

Edit - that was actually not a bad study to read. The quote below was probably the only part I don’t really understand

I mean no offense by this but it is a great example of why it is wise to let the experts decipher the studies and formulate recommendations from them. You liked the study and you "believe" you understand the rest of it but can you be sure? Just because this is the part you struggled with does not mean it is the only part you did not really understand even though you think it is. But at any rate. The portion you do not understand answers a very important question and strengthens the findings that there is no link......etc.

The Danes rank number 4 in the Rule of Law index and they don’t coerce vaccination.

Which is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Which of these two things is not like the other thing?
If you want to go down that rabbit hole though Denmark's vaccination rate is pretty good. The Peoples Republic of China, Turkey and Hungary are all higher. The US which does not have mandatory vaccinations is lower and so is France, which does. In order to understand anything important from these in a compliance sense you have to understand methods and some other factors.

[ness31]

Your condescension knows no bounds

[Pants-of-dog]

They will re-enter after their quarantine has expired. At their expense for being disorganised and lax. People will catch on quickly. Why not tie vaccine schedules to passports and visas?

Most countries have laws saying that the government cannot imprison people without a trial.

Regarding vaccine schedules and their origins, it would have to become a federal issue. Like passports and visas.

With countries that are as large and diverse as Canada or the USA, how would this accont for the different needs of the different regions within each country?

[ness31]

Most countries have laws saying that the government cannot imprison people without a trial.

It isn’t imprisonment, it is a quarantine measure for public safety.

I can feel the apprehension My measure, which is targeted and gets to the source of the problem is too problematic Now it’s going to be about rights to travel, not to be imprisoned etc. As though you are saying the measles outbreaks dont warrant such drastic, mobilized and heavy handed action.

But plying a passive population with vaccines, at times against their will is somehow better?

With countries that are as large and diverse as Canada or the USA, how would this accont for the different needs of the different regions within each country?

I’m sure a way can be found.

The Danes were able to track over 600 000 children born over 11 years with such meticulous detail it is almost frightening. I’m sure if Canada and the US get their shit together they can do something equally as useful in respects to halting the import of such ‘perilous’ diseases.

[Pants-of-dog]

It isn’t imprisonment, it is a quarantine measure for public safety.

If they are forcibly confined, it is imprisonment.

My measure, which is targeted and gets to the source of the problem is too problematic Now it’s going to be about rights to travel, not to be imprisoned etc. As though you are saying the measles outbreaks dont warrant such drastic, mobilized and heavy handed action.

Your measure addresses only one source of the problem. It does not address all the sources, and so the regualr vaccination system is still required.

And no, I do not think measles outbreaks requires imprisoning whole families.

But plying a passive population with vaccines, at times against their will is somehow better?

Yes, vaccinating a family is better than puttng them in prison.

I’m sure a way can be found.

The Danes were able to track over 600 000 children born over 11 years with such meticulous detail it is almost frightening. I’m sure if Canada and the US get their shit together they can do something equally as useful in respects to halting the import of such ‘perilous’ diseases.

This does not address my point.

How do you reconcile federal institutions enforcing what should be regional requirements for vaccines?

[Drlee]

The Danes were able to track over 600 000 children born over 11 years with such meticulous detail it is almost frightening. I’m sure if Canada and the US get their shit together they can do something equally as useful in respects to halting the import of such ‘perilous’ diseases.

The US and Canada already have. The Danish study is not the first. It is just another that adds to the already establishes fact that MMR vaccines do not cause autism.

You did not read the study carefully. It specifically acknowledges some of the others. Read the footnotes.

[ness31]

If they are forcibly confined, it is imprisonment.

There will be education drives to alert people to changes in policy. Quarantine is not the same as unlawful imprisonment AND they’re going to get billed for the privilege. If it ended up in court after all the legislation had passed I don’t see why a judge would rule quarantine for public health unlawful.

Your measure addresses only one source of the problem. It does not address all the sources, and so the regualr vaccination system is still required.

Correct. Kids and families will still be getting immunized but not under compulsion .

And no, I do not think measles outbreaks requires imprisoning whole families.

Quarantine is not imprisonment. Use a dictionary if you must.

Yes, vaccinating a family is better than puttng them in prison.

Quarantine is not imprisonment. I’m tired of repeating myself.

Vaccinating a family against their will is like Chinas one child policy. You transgress a very fundamental right

This does not address my point.

How do you reconcile federal institutions enforcing what should be regional requirements for vaccines?

Why should it be regional.? You all keep telling me how dire these outbreaks are. How we’re on the precipice of disaster , herd immunity is dropping etc. Make it a uniform federal issue, consistent across the board. After all, it’s for the children ..

The US and Canada already have. The Danish study is not the first. It is just another that adds to the already establishes fact that MMR vaccines do not cause autism.

You did not read the study carefully. It specifically acknowledges some of the others. Read the footnotes.

So, do the US, Canada and Denmark all have the exact same way of diagnosing and reporting incidence of Autism?

Yes or No. I’m not really interested in anything else you have to say.

[Godstud]

Quarantine is not imprisonment.

Quarantine, under these circumstances, would be confinement(impose isolation). There is little difference.

Quarantine
-impose isolation on (a person, animal, or place); put in quarantine.

Vaccinating a family against their will is like Chinas one child policy. You transgress a very fundamental right

What absolute rubbish. A great example of a false equivalence comparison, though...

Make it a uniform federal issue, consistent across the board. After all, it’s for the children ..

Right, and the best manner in which to address this is mandatory vaccinations for children. It's the least inconvenient, and the best for all.

[ness31]

If I had a vaccine against you and Drlee, believe me, I’d be stabbing myself with that shit

[Godstud]

Stab yourself in the eye for all I care, but your arguments are shit.

You'd rather impose confinement on people than take a 10 second needle in the arm that would protect you from a disease for years.

[ness31]

Well, I don’t frequent this thread to gain validation from avatars

[Pants-of-dog]

There will be education drives to alert people to changes in policy. Quarantine is not the same as unlawful imprisonment AND they’re going to get billed for the privilege. If it ended up in court after all the legislation had passed I don’t see why a judge would rule quarantine for public health unlawful.

How is quarantine different from prison?

Because it certainly seems like you are confining everyone who travels to certain areas who cannot show evidence of vaccination, and on top of that, you are also making them pay the equivalent of a fine by making them pay for the quarantine.

Correct. Kids and families will still be getting immunized but not under compulsion .

I think you may have misunderstood.

I was saying that your idea only targets a single vector of infection and does not provide comprehensive coverage the way universal vaccination does.

For this reason, your idea could only work as an addition to the existing system.

Quarantine is not imprisonment. Use a dictionary if you must.

Quarantine is not imprisonment. I’m tired of repeating myself.

This is an issue with wording.

My point was that measles outbreaks are not seen as justifying the forcible confinement of whole families.

Vaccinating a family against their will is like Chinas one child policy. You transgress a very fundamental right

What right?

Why should it be regional.?

This has laready been discussed at length in this thread.

@Victoribus Spolia tried to claim that we should reject vaccines because federal programs cannot take into account regional diversity.

That was when I pointed out that each province does have their own schedule.

This makes for sense for Canada because of climate diversity, as well as diversity in terms of which immigrants you get. Quebec gets immigrants from former French colonies, BC gets people from the Pacific Rim, and wr seem to be getting Africans here in the Midwest.

You all keep telling me how dire these outbreaks are. How we’re on the precipice of disaster , herd immunity is dropping etc. Make it a uniform federal issue, consistent across the board. After all, it’s for the children ..

Please quote where I said these things.

[ness31]

ok PoD. Ok. Best go plug yourself in for a recharge before you overheat

[Drlee]

Why should it be regional.? You all keep telling me how dire these outbreaks are. How we’re on the precipice of disaster , herd immunity is dropping etc. Make it a uniform federal issue, consistent across the board. After all, it’s for the children ..

Do you doubt that "it" should be? Mandatory vaccination on a national level may or may not be necessary. I would have no problem with the states administering it voluntarily or mandatory. However. Once a vaccination rate drops below a certain level the feds step in and make vaccination mandatory.

So, do the US, Canada and Denmark all have the exact same way of diagnosing and reporting incidence of Autism?

Doesn't matter. What you are looking at is the rate. Think about that for a second and you will see why it does not matter.

Yes or No. I’m not really interested in anything else you have to say.

This is typical of antivaxers. They are immune to facts and the evidence. It is not the position of a smart person. Smart people listen to the evidence, then decide. But then they also do not make medical decisions based upon some odd political position that, at the end of the day, does not matter at all.

[XogGyux]

This is typical of antivaxers. They are immune to facts and the evidence.

Evidence herd immunity .

[Drlee]

So true. XO.

We have a reported case of measles in my area. A one year old baby. This week our legislature decided to weaken vaccination requirements. (Way to go shit heads.)

No word yet from the surveillance folks except for the fact that this child had recently traveled. If he traveled by a series of airplanes then who knows where this might pop up. (If it does at all.)

We also have a late season resurgence of flu. H3N2 is still rattling our cages. (And killing people.) But the same idiots who want to wait for an "informed choice" will not get vaccinated. If that is not evidence of natural selection, I don't know what is.