[AFAIK]

I enjoy reading fiction for fun and I think it is an entertaining and engaging way of learning about the world. I usually find books with lots of (new) ideas engaging- Oryx & Crake and The Year of the flood are two favourites.

To the point- Can PoFoers recommend to me some literature that presents their ideologies in an entertaining and engaging manner? I am pretty much open to all ideologies and eager to learn at this point.

AFAIK

[Sithsaber]

Ideology is = usually only discussed with strawmen, utopianism and what not to do when described through fiction.

See Atlas Shrugged versus Bioshock.

[Fasces]

Starship Troopers

[ronimacarroni]

A Christmas carol

[Husky]

Apparently reading The Fountainhead backwards is a message from Satan.

[quetzalcoatl]

Francis Spufford's Red Plenty is a fictional treatment of post-Stalin Soviet economics. Oddly, this book is not boring.

[AFAIK]

Ideology is = usually only discussed with strawmen, utopianism and what not to do when described through fiction.

See Atlas Shrugged versus Bioshock.

I take it you're not familiar with satire?

Or George Orwell.

The Wizard of Oz is a series of thinly disguised socialist parables.

Starship Troopers

Fascism?
Could you elaborate a little?

[Fasces]

Fascism-lite

[Pants-of-dog]

The collected works of Mafalda.

Iain M. Banks' Culture novels (RIP).

[emmitt]

The Lord of the Rings.

[AFAIK]

Fascism-lite

What's with the monosyllabic posts?
Are you a moody teenager?

[Fasces]

That post had three syllables.

[Pants-of-dog]

Starship Troopers is a veiled criticism of fascism.

The (slightly) fascist society of the Terrans prior to the arachnid war become steadily more fascist as they fight the bug (the personification of a pure collective). One of those "stare into the abyss" things where you become that which you fight against. Ironically, the crappy movie sequels play with this theme a lot more than the first movie did.

[AFAIK]

Thank you Pants of Dog ! Would you recommend that I watch the movies? I saw the 1st as a child and only saw a hollywood action movie and wasn't aware of anything deeper.

I think Fasces is coming out of his shell as each post has grown in length. Perhaps we can coax him into this discussion.

[Fasces]

The book is not a criticism of fascism, nor was it written to be that.

The movie purposely subverts and contradicts the message of the book (and is not subtle about it).

I was talking about the book.

[Pants-of-dog]

The book is not a criticism of fascism, nor was it written to be that.

The movie purposely subverts and contradicts the message of the book (and is not subtle about it).

I was talking about the book.

So was I.

The first criticism of fascism comes in the fact that both the arachnids and the terrans immediately start fighting as soon as they come into contact. The arachnid behaviour can be explained by their lack of moral compass, but if the arachnids are doing so because they have no moral compass, what does that say about a humanity that reacts the same way?

[AFAIK]

Welcome to the conversation Fasces. I will definitely be adding ST to my to read list.

If anyone else expects me to invest money, time and effort to reading their recommendations I'll require convincing.

[Fasces]

The first criticism of fascism comes in the fact that both the arachnids and the terrans immediately start fighting as soon as they come into contact. The arachnid behaviour can be explained by their lack of moral compass, but if the arachnids are doing so because they have no moral compass, what does that say about a humanity that reacts the same way?

At what point in the work are Terran institutions implied to be negative or the cause of failure, or, more broadly, anything but a good idea? You are confusing your own opinion of fascism with what the text actually says.

I understand you disagree with fascism, and thus would think a fascistic society is negative, but the text does not - Rico finds fulfillment, the Terran system succeeds through its struggles, and in fact the primary antagonist the system, Rico's father, comes to "see the light" and becomes convinced of its "goodness". The system is presented as positive throughout the text, and its solutions are accepted as the only rational course of action. Any negative qualities you see stem from yours own beliefs - the text does not suggest them.

Compare the presentation of the Federation in Starship Troopers with the presentation of communism in Animal Farm. In the latter work, the text itself rejects the system. Starship Troopers does not.

The criticism that you pointed out, for example, is due to your own rejection of violence. The text itself declares that life and liberty are both meaningless and unsustainable without struggle, and that conflict is not only a vital part of the human experience, but desirable. This is in line with fascist thinking. You may find the idea distasteful, but the text does not.

[Pants-of-dog]

At what point in the work are Terran institutions implied to be negative or the cause of failure, or, more broadly, anything but a good idea? You are confusing your own opinion of fascism with what the text actually says.

I thought the whole "becoming more like the bugs who are killing everyone" thing was a pretty obvious criticism.

I understand you disagree with fascism, and thus would think a fascistic society is negative, but the text does not - Rico finds fulfillment, the Terran system succeeds through its struggles, and in fact the primary antagonist the system, Rico's father, comes to "see the light" and becomes convinced of its "goodness".

The other parallel with fascism is the increasing control of the soldiers by the leaders. This ability stems from the powered suits which are not in the movie at all, as far as I can recall. Doesn't the suit make Rico fall asleep in the book, right before they go into caves to flush out the brain bug? Again, this mimics the biological control systems used by the brain bugs to control their own soldier bugs.

[Fasces]

I thought the whole "becoming more like the bugs who are killing everyone" thing was a pretty obvious criticism.

The text makes no reference to any changes in the governing procedures of the Terran Federation - it introduces the Federation early on, in the History and Moral Philosophy course, but after Rico joins the Federal Service, no further discussion of the society is present. The text does not indicate that society has become more "bug-like". As an aside, the text does not present bugs as bad, merely as "not us" and an obstacle to human objectives. The text presents struggle and conquest as goods, as these are the mechanisms by which human beings find fulfillment and maintain a healthy society. The personal growth of Rico reflects this.

Rico goes through a personal transformation by which he becomes aware of his responsibilities to himself, his comrades, and eventually, his species. This is in line with fascist thinking, however, and the text does not indicate this is a negative development. In fact, it is only through this that the character finds the spiritual fulfillment he was searching for in the beginning of the text, indicating that this is positive. His father follows a similar path of development off screen - we see him criticizing Rico's decision to join the Federal Service early on, because he only accepts that people are responsible for themselves. We see him and Rico reunited after the father has come to accept that he has a responsibility to his country, or in this case, species. This is a very fascistic way of thinking.

What evidence from the text exists to imply that this is a negative development? I think you are confusing your own biases toward what the text presents as an ideal with what the text actually states.

The other parallel with fascism is the increasing control of the soldiers by the leaders. This ability stems from the powered suits which are not in the movie at all, as far as I can recall. Doesn't the suit make Rico fall asleep in the book, right before they go into caves to flush out the brain bug? Again, this mimics the biological control systems used by the brain bugs to control their own soldier bugs.

I don't recall that, but does the text actually present this as negative?