[ThereBeDragons]

Counterproductive in terms of what? Asserting your power over others? You die with the most toys, you're still dead.

[Saeko]

Counterproductive in terms of what? Asserting your power over others? You die with the most toys, you're still dead.

Death is just a physical limitation. Just because you can't control what happens on Mars doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do anything at all on Earth.

[ThereBeDragons]

Death is just a physical limitation. Just because you can't control what happens on Mars doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do anything at all on Earth.

But it doesn't mean you should, either. It just means you can.

[Saeko]

But it doesn't mean you should, either. It just means you can.

I'm not sure what your point is.

[ThereBeDragons]

There's no point in your using the word "counter-productive" unless you mean in terms of actual, physical, means-of-production type production.

[Saeko]

There's no point in your using the word "counter-productive" unless you mean in terms of actual, physical, means-of-production type production.

I meant that it is counter-productive in the sense that "if your goal is x, and the means to achieve it are y", then doing something other than y is counter-productive.

[ThereBeDragons]

I meant that it is counter-productive in the sense that "if your goal is x, and the means to achieve it are y", then doing something other than y is counter-productive.

Well, if the clan is only a means to your personal aggrandizement, then yes, it might be better (setting aside the fact that you might not be able to hide it). But from another perspective, some people identify the welfare of the clan as a goal in and of itself.

[SolarCross]

I disagree with the second one. If you're in a "clan" then you only need to appear to adhere to its morality. Limiting yourself by sincerely adopting any morality is counter-productive.

Hmm.. I'm rather with ThereBeDragons on that. If one needs the clan but is incapable of really sublimating oneself to the group then putting on a pretence might have some functionality but it isn't the superior solution.

1. Sooner or later you will probably be discovered as a faker. Depending on how close knit the group is and how severe the adversities it is up against being discovered as a faker will likely cause significant loss of status and other benefits. Loyalty is reciprocal, you can't expect to get it, if you don't give it. You might even be seen as something like an enemy, and an enemy within the gates is far more intolerable than an enemy outside the gates.

2. The inverse of 1. You can give more to the group through being sincere and loyal. The more you give the more you receive.

[Saeko]

Hmm.. I'm rather with ThereBeDragons on that. If one needs the clan but is incapable of really sublimating oneself to the group then putting on a pretence might have some functionality but it isn't the superior solution.

1. Sooner or later you will probably be discovered as a faker. Depending on how close knit the group is and how severe the adversities it is up against being discovered as a faker will likely cause significant loss of status and other benefits. Loyalty is reciprocal, you can't expect to get it, if you don't give it. You might even be seen as something like an enemy, and an enemy within the gates is far more intolerable than an enemy outside the gates.

I disagree with this. I've been doing it for years and no one in my circle of friends or family suspects a thing. Generally, when one commits a sin, people are far more likely to attribute it to moral weakness or stupidity. They find it very difficult to imagine that someone who looks and acts like them might have a radically different value system or world-view from their own. Besides, even if anyone were to discover the truth somehow and accuse you, they'd sound completely insane and paranoid. Compare "Saeko lied because she made a mistake" to "Saeko lied because it's all a part of her grand scheme to take over the world."

That being said, I'm not saying that one should achieve their goals through duplicity whenever possible. Rather, it is often very prudent to keep promises, give gifts, tell the truth, etc. Great liars get away with great lies by being honest 99% of the time.

[SolarCross]

I disagree with this. I've been doing it for years and no one in my circle of friends or family suspects a thing. Generally, when one commits a sin, people are far more likely to attribute it to moral weakness or stupidity. They find it very difficult to imagine that someone who looks and acts like them might have a radically different value system or world-view from their own. Besides, even if anyone were to discover the truth somehow and accuse you, they'd sound completely insane and paranoid. Compare "Saeko lied because she made a mistake" to "Saeko lied because it's all a part of her grand scheme to take over the world."

That being said, I'm not saying that one should achieve their goals through duplicity whenever possible. Rather, it is often very prudent to keep promises, give gifts, tell the truth, etc. Great liars get away with great lies by being honest 99% of the time.

Ah well, the reason for that is that they are all probably pretending too. Such is the nature of our times but what it leads to is anarchy aka the zombie apocalypse. When howling cannibal biker gangs are tearing up the streets with impunity you will all suddenly find that erzatz community won't help you one bit.

[Saeko]

Ah well, the reason for that is that they are all probably pretending too. Such is the nature of our times but what it leads to is anarchy aka the zombie apocalypse. When howling cannibal biker gangs are tearing up the streets with impunity you will all suddenly find that erzatz community won't help you one bit.

I think your belief is self-contradictory. How could you distinguish between a group of people who sincerely believe and adhere to a certain morality from a group of fakers and their mutual masquerade? If you're saying that the latter will lead to anarchy, then since my little corner of the world has not degenerated to such a state, then we are all actually sincere people (except me), but the reason that those sincere people don't suspect anything of me is because they are all actually fakers? I don't think you can have both that a community of sincere people will always be able to spot a faker in their midst and that a community of insincere fakers will necessarily degenerate into chaos.

[SolarCross]

I think your belief is self-contradictory. How could you distinguish between a group of people who sincerely believe and adhere to a certain morality from a group of fakers and their mutual masquerade?

Sincere people see more than you realise. Fakers see the world with one eye pointing inwards keeping track of their fairy tales. Sincere people have no such burden; they see the world with both eyes wide open. A group of fakers fool themselves as much as they fool each other.

If you're saying that the latter will lead to anarchy, then since my little corner of the world has not degenerated to such a state, then we are all actually sincere people (except me), but the reason that those sincere people don't suspect anything of me is because they are all actually fakers? I don't think you can have both that a community of sincere people will always be able to spot a faker in their midst and that a community of insincere fakers will necessarily degenerate into chaos.

I am looking from the perspective of the grand sweep of history. The anarchy that is coming has been brewing for a thousand years. Once upon a time traitors had their heads put on spikes as a warning to other would be traitors, nowadays everyone is a traitor and such stern punishments are consequently unthinkable. What goes unchecked only proliferates and it cannot get better until it gets much much worse. For now a thin blue line of more or less crazy and out of control cops stand between you and blooming chaos but they won't be there for much longer. Who will be your friends then? Your fellow fakers?

[Saeko]

Sincere people see more than you realise. Fakers see the world with one eye pointing inwards keeping track of their fairy tales. Sincere people have no such burden; they see the world with both eyes wide open. A group of fakers fool themselves as much as they fool each other.

I think you vastly overestimate the "burden" that fakers bear. I don't go around constantly telling outright falsehoods to people and constantly making sure my story is straight. People will convince themselves of all kinds of bullshit. All you have to do is learn to exploit this tendency. And if they ever discover that something is amiss, they'll just blame themselves.

I am looking from the perspective of the grand sweep of history. The anarchy that is coming has been brewing for a thousand years. Once upon a time traitors had their heads put on spikes as a warning to other would be traitors, nowadays everyone is a traitor and such stern punishments are consequently unthinkable. What goes unchecked only proliferates and it cannot get better until it gets much much worse. For now a thin blue line of more or less crazy and out of control cops stand between you and blooming chaos but they won't be there for much longer. Who will be your friends then? Your fellow fakers?

What sort of idiot surrounds himself with people he knows are liars? You're making it sound like I'm trying to establish a League of Evil, rather than what I'm actually doing, which is just taking advantage of the world as it is.

But let me ask you this. What makes you think that you can trust your friends?

[SolarCross]

What sort of idiot surrounds himself with people he knows are liars? You're making it sound like I'm trying to establish a League of Evil, rather than what I'm actually doing, which is just taking advantage of the world as it is.

But let me ask you this. What makes you think that you can trust your friends?

I don't. I can see into them right through to the bone and not one of them is trustworthy. My wife I can trust completely and my son (a bit) but no one else not even other family members. I am searching for sincere people with whom to make a "clan" but not much luck so far, most people are duds.

[Potemkin]

What sort of idiot surrounds himself with people he knows are liars? You're making it sound like I'm trying to establish a League of Evil, rather than what I'm actually doing, which is just taking advantage of the world as it is.

This is the fundamental problem with being a wryneck - if everyone is a wryneck, then it's no longer a winning strategy. Being a successful wryneck depends on the fact that the majority of the population play the game according to the rules (most of the time). This policy of taking advantage of the 'gullibility' of most people - that is, taking parasitic advantage of the rules of human communal living - can only be successful pursued by a tiny minority. And if they are identified as wrynecks by the rest of the community (as they usually are, eventually), then they are often expelled from that society or even killed by it.

Oh, and I've just found out in another thread that you are actually of the female persuasion, Saeko. I therefore apologise for my earlier rudeness - I had assumed you were male, and responded accordingly. Please forgive me.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

That's very sexist. Why can't a woman be president of Earth?

[Potemkin]

That's very sexist. Why can't a woman be president of Earth?

No reason at all, Jessup. In fact, I would probably welcome such a thing. My point is that, in my (somewhat limited) experience, women tend to be touchier than men when it comes to personal insults. Men tend to be rather abrupt and harsh in their interactions with each other and, as a man, you're expected to just take it. This is why I was surprised by Saeko's reaction to my post. Having "finer feelings" is regarded as a rather feminine trait. If I had known that Saeko was female, I would have tempered my harshness somewhat. I am, after all, a gentleman.

[Rei Murasame]

I think what you're describing here is just consequentialism. Moral nihilism says that there are no moral facts, meaning that there is nothing "at the end" which is good or bad.

Well, it may be that what I'm doing is a unnamed form of moral anti-realism where I marshal the use of the words 'good' and 'bad', and 'right' and wrong', even though there are no objective facts for them to correspond to.

For example, even if I say that "any ideology that facilitates 'the development of productive forces and an advanced culture' in a particular time and place" is "right" and "true", and should be adhered to until such time as it becomes "false", that is consequentialism and appears to also be 'moral relativism'. However, at the same time, measuring it against whether it 'develops productive forces and an advanced culture' appears to be a 'moral absolutist' stance. And, asking me why I would choose such a benchmark, I might say that it "brings the universe closer to full awareness of its own existence". And then, if you ask me why I would want to do that, I might say, "because that is what it wants", and if asked why I choose to obey it, then I might say "because I choose to", which brings us to what sounds like 'moral nihilism'.

Since any time that I am willing to say that what I think is 'right' is determined by force of will (be it my will or something else's will), then that is the same thing as saying that there are no objective moral facts, there are just interests and applications of the will. But, at the same time, in a mysterious way that is hard to explain, those moral facts which we know are objectively 'false' and yet choose to fight for to construct the reality in which they are applied, are actually the 'most true' and 'most real' ones of all.

[Dagoth Ur]

I disagree with this. I've been doing it for years and no one in my circle of friends or family suspects a thing. Generally, when one commits a sin, people are far more likely to attribute it to moral weakness or stupidity. They find it very difficult to imagine that someone who looks and acts like them might have a radically different value system or world-view from their own. Besides, even if anyone were to discover the truth somehow and accuse you, they'd sound completely insane and paranoid. Compare "Saeko lied because she made a mistake" to "Saeko lied because it's all a part of her grand scheme to take over the world."

That being said, I'm not saying that one should achieve their goals through duplicity whenever possible. Rather, it is often very prudent to keep promises, give gifts, tell the truth, etc. Great liars get away with great lies by being honest 99% of the time.

I'm not really sure how this is a special manipulation of liberalism. Like no one wants to accuse anyone of being a tapestry of lies especially considering that one's own lies often intertangle with those around them.

[Lightman]

2) Seeking power is the only rational way to act without values or some kind of "ultimate goal".

How is "seeking power" - whatever that means - not teleological?

All you're saying is "I don't believe in moral values and want to do 'x.'" There's nothing particularly interesting about it.