[Tailz]

Mike Powell wrote:

When China became over-populated you accused them causing famine and economic implosion. And when they apply the One Child Policy to control their population you started to criticise this policy is oppresive. One sincere word from me, use your head before you even start to criticise others.

Whats with the blame game, all your doing is trying to do is blame everything on the evil decadent West. A lot of people complement China on the one child policy, its an unfortunate necessary evil because of China's large population. But at the same time China does warrant some criticism over the one child policy and certain practices. This is not an attempt to put China down, but honest criticism aimed at trying to make a bad situation, better.

But I don't doubt, that some will try and use this policy and its negative side to discredit China. But in my book, its is an unfortunate necessary evil that I think some other states should learn from.

When the global population is at a sustainable level, I would hope all people of the planet have learn a lesson from it.

But please, get down off your high horse and stop beating your chest every time someone criticizes China - beating your chest so much drowns out those who can rationally discuss such issues.

[Mike Powell]

Whats with the blame game, all your doing is trying to do is blame everything on the evil decadent West. A lot of people complement China on the one child policy, its an unfortunate necessary evil because of China's large population. But at the same time China does warrant some criticism over the one child policy and certain practices. This is not an attempt to put China down, but honest criticism aimed at trying to make a bad situation, better.

Relax pal, my criticism are only for those who doesn't use their head before criticise others.

Like I had said, One Child Policy do have its darkside which I mentioned it earlier. Although for now, I don't think the Chinese government will reconsider the policy even with the high numbers of children casualties after the earthquake.

[canchin]

It's natural for all of us to expect a stronger China to be more of a 'threat' to the world, but without data, the claim is an unscientific postulation.

Just jumping in, in the middle, because you bring up a point that actually can be analyzed "sort of" scientifically, and i quoted you because I couldn't find the original from which to quote.

In psychology, it could be described perhaps as schizoid-paranoia that is caused by looking at a situation, imaging what you would do in that same situation, and then automatically believing that anyone else in that situation would act exactly the same as would you.

For example, and this has been discussed within a group of my friends for some time, if China was anything like America - or Britain - there would not be a Japan, a Korea, the Philippines, HK, Macau, Vietnam...probably no Indonesia or even Thailand...they would already and long ago been conquered and absorbed.

On the northern border there would not be an Inner of "Outer" Mongolia, the closest border would either be the Arctic Ocean or some kind of tense, standoff type of relationship with Russia...but none of the small countries around China of today would exist, they would all just be part of the America-like China.

The oil fields in Kazakhstan would belong to this America-like China and the people there would all speak English and, while probably not have an Austrian for a governor, would not be a separate country.

It almost appears as if those who are constantly crying "China Threat" realize what their country - read here, America or Britain even though Britain's days are long behind it - would do if suddenly America or Britain had trillions of dollars, 1.4 million people and the weapons to back it all up, and feel that China would act the same way they would.

This is a problem but it is all psychological, and it is their psychosis.

China is not America, nor is China, Britain.

Even in the historical context that is necessary for one to have such schizoid-paranoia, China did not go about the world murdering and stealing from other nations. True, China has had border conflicts, but note that even those conflicts did not result in the destruction and assimilation of those countries with whom China had border conflicts...Vietnam is still there, of course Russia is still there, Korea and Japan are still there.

America and Britain on the other hand have histories filled with their murderous escapades around the world, subjugating small countries, murdering their people and stealing their land and resources. Texas and California used to belong to Mexico, Hawaii had her own King, Puerto Rico was independent, the Marshall Islands never used to be able to manufacture products and stamp "Made in the USA" on them, and the list goes on.

Look at any map of the world and you'll find even small islands in the middle of nowhere marked "France" or "USA" or "Britain" that are far from the borders of that country so-claiming small island, but one can't say the same about China.

So of course they look at a growing China, an increasing in prosperity China, an increasing in respect by other nations, as a threat, but I feel that is quite simply a mental problem of those so viewing China.

One could trot out the "It's not paranoia if they really are after you" line, but China isn't after anybody...China is concentrating on China.

Let's be blunt here. If China wanted to turn Taiwan or Japan into a parking lot, China could do so - and far faster than any "response" could come from the States; but that is not something China has done historically, is not something that is part of China's cultural makeup, and not something China wants to do. So, it wont be done.

Should anything stupid be started, it wouldn't be a ground war anyway. It would be total and both sides would get nuked and that is just plain stupid.

Creating a boogeyman is something that is only done by those trying to hide their own proclivities and their own fears.

The key, I would suggest, is for America and Britain and other "self-delusional as to their own greatness" countries and people, to come to the realization that China is China.

China does not have to do anything the way other countries "order" China to do. China does not have to change her culture, her government, her operation of that government, her laws, her societal norms, her desires, her beliefs, her likes and dislikes, for any other country...and especially not just because some other country or people demand it of China and Chinese people.

America is not the king of the world. Americans are not the greatest people in the world. Neither is Britain or Australia and neither are the British or the Aussies.

No country is "Number 1" and no people are perfect. No political system is perfect, no government is perfect, no cultural milieu is perfect, no society is perfect, so no other country or people has the right to order any other country to do this or to do that simply because they are ordered to.

It is exactly like religious cults: none is perfect, none is the "right" one, none has better man-created dogmas or doctrines that are better than any other man-created dogmas and doctrines.

This childish belief in one country's superiority over any other and so all other countries must obey, the idiotic idea that one political system is better than all other political systems so all other political systems must change to match, or that the laws of one country are better than the laws of any other country whether or not the conditions in other countries are even similar, is simply ludicrous, and that, I suggest, is from where the major problems of the world of today and in history, have originated.

It is all about - on the side of countries like America and Britain - control and domination. They want to be seen as being the rulers of everything and everyone should bow down, regardless of how backward and ineffective are their government institutions, how nasty are their business practices. This could be seen as almost natural of course as it is seductive to believe all power lay in ones hands and so all others should obey...but it is insanity nonetheless.

It's about wanting their failed political and social systems to be accepted - at the point of a gun if necessary - by others so that they can then point to those "others" and use them as advertising showing those countries not yet giving themselves in to subjugation that "See? They do as we do so it must be the right thing for you to do."

China just refuses to bend her knee to any foreign demands, especially demands that China sees as being hopelessly flawed in relation to those countries, let alone to China.

China is not averse to accepting and working to fix the problems China has, but it is China that gets to decide what those problems are and how to deal with them and in what order they should be dealt with, nobody else.

For almost 3 decades China has been the most advanced country in the world as far as improving her system of government, laws, and society. China had the balls - years ago - to look at the new nation that rose Phoenix-like from the horror of over hundred years of imperialist invasion, the murders by foreigners of millions of her people, and the murder of millions of her own people BY her own people, realize and accepted that many errors had been made and began to work on correcting those errors. After getting rid of the imperialists, the foreigners and even those Chinese that had caused the deaths of so many Chinese, China began to become a nation. For the first 30 years it was scraping together from nest to nothing to create something, and since then it has been to take that new "something" and develop it into a Great Something.

While other countries don't even have the balls to admit how failed their systems are, how backward their systems are, how much in their systems is broken, and some not even daring to admit they have failed in some ways...Chinese people looked THEMSELVES at their system - and others - and made the conscious decision to search out what was good in those other systems as China saw them, trying them out, adopting those that were applicable to the culture and historical social milieu of China and discarding those that were already a failure elsewhere and that would only lead to even greater failure for the people of China if adopted.

China is not in a hurry. If it takes a hundred more years for China to get through the morass of backward systems and concepts in the rest of the world so as to find what is of value, China will do so.

But as for other countries and people ordering China to do this or that, telling China and Chinese people that they must do things this way or that way...that is all self-delusional pomposity, and definitely, a very racist superiority complex being fed by schizoid-paranoia.

[NewEra]

canchin, I think your analysis has some noteworthy points. I agree that is is incorrect and hasty to expect China to act like all other Western superpowers. However, with the onset of globalization and the infiltration of Western ideals into China, the entire society of China is changing in ways that may lead them to act similarly to the recent Western powers. Bringing up China's long history may, unfortunately, be insufficient.

A lot of people complement China on the one child policy

tailz, I'm not sure where you get this from. The One Child Policy has been one of the traditional criticisms of the West and is rarely discussed in a positive tone by the media. To say that 'a lot of people' complement the One Child Policy is a long stretch. In fact, the reverse is true: a lot of people criticize China on the One Child Policy.

This is not an attempt to put China down, but honest criticism aimed at trying to make a bad situation, better. ...But please, get down off your high horse and stop beating your chest every time someone criticizes China - beating your chest so much drowns out those who can rationally discuss such issues.

I don't think you should get defensive over it, as Mike Powell noted, but you must realize that there exists numerous emotional and zealous attempts at putting down China in the West. In the United States, China is arguably one of the countries which ordinary Americans are quickest to rely on their emotion to conclude on an opinion. This may, in fact, be caused by China's status as a socialist country and the United States as a traditional beacon of democratic capitalism, but that China is generally accepted negatively is easily observable from high school down to the seniors.

'Honest' criticism, when discussing China, often fails to take both the positive and negative aspects of an issue into account. Many presented statistics and so-called facts are indeed very selective and filtered for negativity. Without exposing both ends of the spectrum when considering an issue, it is expected for people to adopt a twisted and misleading perspective. Nearly all policies have negative impacts to some degree, but with those negative impacts are included positive impacts. We need to make sure that when the positive impacts outweigh the negative, that credit is given where credit is due. When this fails to occur, it's a violation of editorial neutrality, even if all the negatives exposed are true. It induces people to make an opinion on an issue without getting the whole picture and draw a lopsided conclusion.

I personally do not think that the domestic and international Chinese are on a 'high horse' but see an obvious lack of neutrality when many China-related issues are presented in the Western media. This is not to say that the discussion of the negative impacts of a policy are necessarily fabricated, but that the positive impacts are commonly concealed.

[SeriousCat]

The problem is not the One Child policy, but the societies preference for a Male child. Originally in the rural communities, the objective was for a male child because females were seen to be weaker and less able to "pull their weight" to help sustain the family (primarily their elderly parents). This also integrates with the family values of a male heir continuing the family name, plus the luck aspect of having a male child. If people simple had the children without preselection for the sex of the child, then the law of averages in child birth would balance out the division of males to female births. If China didn't have the one child policy, then the average family size would again be large and China would over populate and literally eat itself to death. The one child policy was an attempt to stop rural families from having large numbers of children in order to work the farmland in order to provide for their elderly parents - in other words, population explosion to facilitate those who can no longer provide for themselves.

One Child Policy
The preference for male children is a cultural one that cannot be changed within a single generation. Therefore to solve the problem the focus must be on government policies - a government cannot politically engineer (at least directly) culture. China was overpopulated 50 years ago. It was because of Mao Zedong's insane policies that brought the birth rate up and between the years 1950 and 2000 more than 600 million people were born. The policy of one child (it's actually one birth, since twins and triplets are permitted) causes the demographics to shift towards a severe imbalance. The imbalance would likely have not been there (or not have been significant) since families would rather keep their children instead of leaving them to die (infanticide).

Cornucopia... For Now
There is enough resources in China for 1.3 billion people, however efficient allocation is needed. Same argument for there's not enough space in the world for all the people currently. Look at Texas. If you set aside a small house for every 4 people you can house all the people in the world within the state of Texas. As a professor once told me, "You could fit all the people in the world in the Grand Canyon if you stacked them the right way". This prediction of the population reaching critical mass all seems a bit Malthusian, and we all know what today's people think of his predictions on population growth.

The good side of the One Child Policy is that the governement themselves can monitor the population much easier due to the strict family control policy. And One Child Policy can avoid catastrophic result such as over-population like happening in India presently. And over-population means higher domestic economy demand, in the end inflation soar in every turn and making everyone's life miserable. And miserable life can led to social unrest or worse, revolt.

Inflation
Good point. Inflation is a hot-button issue for the Party now. The lower orders are getting desperate from the incredibly high inflation. For example, a couple of months ago a disaese that killed off much of the stock of pigs saw a 140% rise in the price of pork, which is a staple food in the average Chinese diet. However, like the spike in the price of oil, which is mostly caused by OPEC not drilling the massive reserves in Iraq, is partially caused by rising incomes and demand from China and India. This is a good thing since poverty is vanishing, but inflation that runs unchecked will cause sever economic (and social) problems. However that may be, keeping people in poverty just to bring down the inflation rate is simply not a viable option.

Against Criticism of the One Child Policy
When China became over-populated you accused them causing famine and economic implosion. And when they apply the One Child Policy to control their population you started to criticise this policy is oppresive. One sincere word from me, use your head before you even start to criticise others.

Some Criticism Is Legitimate
Whats with the blame game, all your doing is trying to do is blame everything on the evil decadent West. A lot of people complement China on the one child policy, its an unfortunate necessary evil because of China's large population. But at the same time China does warrant some criticism over the one child policy and certain practices. This is not an attempt to put China down, but honest criticism aimed at trying to make a bad situation, better... But please, get down off your high horse and stop beating your chest every time someone criticizes China - beating your chest so much drowns out those who can rationally discuss such issues.

Constructive Criticism
Part of statecraft is to understand there will always be problems; poverty, inflation, and bankruptcy are ever present, with one solution being the cause to another problem. It's basic economics and the only thing you can do is attempt to minimise those problems. People must be ready to accept these criticisms as legitimate and understand that there are a million sides to every problem, just like how there are a million colours in a single musical note. Problems are dynamic and we must hear dynamic criticisms and form dynamic solutions, otherwise the nation will fail.

Like I had said, One Child Policy do have its darkside which I mentioned it earlier. Although for now, I don't think the Chinese government will reconsider the policy even with the high numbers of children casualties after the earthquake.

Growing Fears of Gender Imbalance
Actually, they are. High ranking members of the Party are reconsidering their positions on the policy as they see the gender imbalance grow to significant proportions. This could cause unemployment if left unchecked, which is the Party's worst fear.

tailz, I'm not sure where you get this from. The One Child Policy has been one of the traditional criticisms of the West and is rarely discussed in a positive tone by the media. To say that 'a lot of people' complement the One Child Policy is a long stretch. In fact, the reverse is true: a lot of people criticize China on the One Child Policy.

It's also the 'traditional' criticism of the government from the general populace in China.

I don't think you should get defensive over it, as Mike Powell noted, but you must realize that there exists numerous emotional and zealous attempts at putting down China in the West. In the United States, China is arguably one of the countries which ordinary Americans are quickest to rely on their emotion to conclude on an opinion. This may, in fact, be caused by China's status as a socialist country and the United States as a traditional beacon of democratic capitalism, but that China is generally accepted negatively is easily observable from high school down to the seniors.

A Few Common Misconceptions
There is almost no one that is zealously attempting to bring down China - for the U.S., yes, but not China.China is not at all socialist and only America considers China a nominally communist country (China is a strict bureaucracy, not communist or socialist).

I personally do not think that the domestic and international Chinese are on a 'high horse' but see an obvious lack of neutrality when many China-related issues are presented in the Western media. This is not to say that the discussion of the negative impacts of a policy are necessarily fabricated, but that the positive impacts are commonly concealed.

The Press is Almost Never Fair
It is important to remember that (the definition of) human rights and living standards are directly related to the level of development. Since China is still a third-world making its transition to a first-world country, the West should not be so harsh on their criticisms. However, I am not so naive for a moment to believe that the press is unbiased, balanced, and fair.

[NewEra]

A Few Common Misconceptions
There is almost no one that is zealously attempting to bring down China - for the U.S., yes, but not China.China is not at all socialist and only America considers China a nominally communist country (China is a strict bureaucracy, not communist or socialist).

'Bringing' down China, or 'putting' down China. There is a big difference in phonology that changes the argument completely. Do not misquote my sentences, as it distorts the meaning. I was simply asserting that there are numerous people in the United States that, contrary to tailz's claim, are very negative about China and are obviously toned to tarnish the image of the country. Some of CNN's recent broadcasts are examples of this sort of common negative force against China, although I personally believe there is over-reaction from some Chinese.

Fortunately, after the Chinese public showed its disdain to some of CNN's comments, the media giant finally issued an apology. However, the need for an apology in the first place speaks volume about the general opinion of those people regarding China. After all, let's not fool ourselves into believing that their simply making a public apology was 100% sincere. I see it more as a PR move than anything else.

Also, regarding the socialist aspects of China. China is arguable a mixture of both and is a prime example of a hybrid economy. However, this is not the point. In the media, they are continually portrayed as communist, whether you like it or not. This labeling of China as a communist nation automatically triggers a hot nerve in most Americans, since the US was the self-proclaimed global defender against communism. It is a misconception that China is still a purely socialist country, but that does not deter the public from labeling it as a communist nation.

The Press is Almost Never Fair
It is important to remember that (the definition of) human rights and living standards are directly related to the level of development. Since China is still a third-world making its transition to a first-world country, the West should not be so harsh on their criticisms. However, I am not so naive for a moment to believe that the press is unbiased, balanced, and fair.

The original point is not that criticisms are uncalled for, but for each criticism, a fair overview of the whole issue should be discussed. That is, any positive impacts of a policy should be included in discussions regarding the policy's negative impacts. Only then can people formulate a logical and wholesome opinion on an issue. Understanding the positives are equally as important as understanding the negatives because it puts policy effects in perspective. In business, nobody would focus on costs without considering revenue.

An ill-informed opinion is often worse than not having an opinion at all. While the latter may induce indifference, the former may trigger dangerous reactions from misguided thinking.

[canchin]

...with the onset of globalization and the infiltration of Western ideals into China, the entire society of China is changing in ways that may lead them to act similarly to the recent Western powers.

China is changing, no question, most for the good and some for the worse. It is only the foolish who would think that everything in any country is perfect.

The key, to me, stems from first, the government and people of China having the courage to admit there were mistakes, and then to working on fixing those mistakes. Add to the mix, the intelligence to accept that there may be some points of benefit in other systems, a willingness to analyze those other systems to see what could be applied with respect to what was also seen to be good about traditional and historical precedents, and then adopt or reject those that may work or had no hope of working.

This one point is so often ignored by the so-called "west" as to appear as if some are afraid.

Being willing to admit error and then working on correcting that error - regardless of what needs to be done - is the hallmark of courage and humanity. Not even being willing to acknowledge error is the hallmark of a coward...whether an individual or a country.

I would suggest that it is exactly because of globalization that those who once thought they were the "ones" now find themselves just being "one of the ones" and thus afraid of their growing irrelevance while China increases in relevance.

It was so much easier - for 'them" - when China was still not a "world player" because the propaganda rhetoric could flow so easily without the public asking embarrassing questions such as "Gee, if China is so bad, why do so many countries like China?" or "Gee, if the UN says China's illiteracy rate has dropped in less than two decades from 400 million illiterates to 100 million, and we are so much better than them, why is ours increasing?"

It was easier before the late 80's when suddenly China became a place where millions of tourists could travel to and find out for themselves what was going on. When nobody really knew, it was easier to keep the negative myths in play...now, some of the loudest voices about how amazing China is and continuing to become, are those who actually do know, drowning out those who do not but who cling so desperately to those negative myths as if they are written in stone.

Much of the propaganda trotted out against China is not new. The problem for those trotting out that propaganda is that it no longer has any basis in reality. People all over the world have watched China grow in stature, in wealth, in modernity, in education...heck, people watching late night TV in the States must really be confused when China is being criticized on the one hand while Leno and Letterman et al are making jokes about the intellectual level of Chinese students being far higher than that of N. Americans, joking about Chinese companies being active all over the world, jokes even - although not intended as humor - about China being so scary that China will soon control the world!

But since the propaganda machine against China started so long ago, and since the greatest proponents of that anti-China propaganda are now at a loss as to explain their obvious ineptitude in the face of the new reality, the anti-China propagandists and those that have had that propaganda pumped into them since birth, are at a loss as to what to do next. So they fall back on the propaganda, hoping against hope that something will happen - or can be caused to happen - to show that their specious propaganda can be shown to be correct.

China is rapidly becoming an engine of globalization. China trades with nations all over the world. China has her own "sphere of influence" and her own "interests" and they do not match with what has existed before, and that of course is scary to those unable to adjust to the new reality of the world.

China has had nuclear weapons for nearly as long as has America and Russia...but unlike America has never used them on innocent people, whether to make a point or just to "test them out," and since the inevitable outcome of such folly as engaging in a nuclear war is anathema to all but the most moronic, China will not be starting one.

Just like America and Russia have had, and still do have, nuclear missiles aimed at countries and cities all over the world, so, too, does China.

But China's focus is on development and growth. On peaceful coexistence, on mutual respect of differences and working within the framework of those differences to achieve; not one of dictate and control, physically invade and steal, order and insult when the orders are ignored.

China isn't waltzing around the world trying to force others to adhere to China's orders or to steal...what China wants in the way of goods or resources, China buys. What China wants in the way of respect and cooperation, China, in turn, gives.

That being said, of course nobody knows what the far future will bring, but you can be pretty well guaranteed that since China has as first major benchmark in her timeline, the end of this century, that China will not start anything...but if someone else starts it, China will have no choice but to be a participant in the Grand Finish that will be the result.

Bringing up China's long history may, unfortunately, be insufficient.

On this, in a way perhaps unintended, I agree. I don't agree with those that constantly try and use China's history as a weapon in debate...but to ignore the effect of that history on the people in China today is an even bigger failure.

The culture of China, the societal norms of Chinese people, have direct bearing on how the people and government of China are today. How or what they choose to adopt or reject from other countries is analyzed by the people of China within the context of their history, and the ways their belief systems and desires have developed.

Ignoring that history - as far as the people of China are concerned - is as impossible as it is for China to blindly accept another country's political or social system.

The synergistic amalgam of historical and modern is what is making China develop, faster and in many ways better, than those countries with little in the way of history.

[canchin]

There is here, as there is in many places, what seems to be a bit of a lack of understanding about China's One Child Policy.

Firstly, of course, it's nobody's business except for the people in China to whom the policy is directed...that would be the members of the Han Chinese majority living in urban centers. When foreigners begin to criticize it as if the wishes of the foreigner in regards the policy, should be uppermost in the minds of the people and government of China, it really does come off as quite pale and pompous, especially when such criticism fairly flows with lack of understanding.

China has 56 minorities, and the 55 other than the Han majority make up roughly 7-8% or roughly 90 Million people.

The non-Han minorities are not subject to the one-child policy and they can, and do, have as many children as they wish with only their good sense on whether or not they can provide to each child the exact same measure of love, care, education and opportunity, being the criteria they need to pay attention to.

It has been calculated by Chinese scientists that if the one-child policy had not been implemented, today, China would have over 2 Billion people, an unsustainable number by any stretch of the imagination. Starvation and internal strife would be running rampant, and although that is what seems to be a dream some have for China, it is fortunate for China that it would be more of a nightmare.

So, China's nightmare scenario didn't come true and the dream of some foreigners didn't come true. Good for China! Too bad about the dreams of some foreigners though.

This is not a policy that was lightly entered into. It was seen as a necessity and it has proven itself to be the correct thing to do albeit not lauded as a "great thing" by anybody in China.

But this, too, shows the quality of the people of China and the government of China. That which is necessary for the nation - even if distasteful - is accepted because the nation is more important that the individual.

Of course Chinese people love children. Of course Chinese people want more children. That is nature. The problems developed because there were going to be more than could be fed, clothed, housed, educated and cared for.

This is something many "western" countries should be examining in their own environment. A parent/family that has more children than that family can care for, educate, love and develop in equal and identical measure for each child, is a cruel and barbaric family.

If a family has more children than they can financially afford to look after until that child is old enough to support themselves, then that family is guilty of child abuse. It is another of those areas of western life that has been so badly corrupted by religious cult dogma and doctrine.

Getting back to the China One Child Policy, again, it is not applied to rural communities so the attempt to link it to the preference for male offspring to work and so as to carry on the "line" as is a focus in most countries, falls flat. A farmer can have as many children as he or she wishes...just that they keep trying until they get a male, but as education even in rural areas just keeps on increasing and improving like everything else in China, this ancient idea is also beginning to lose it's luster.

But this is a good thing in many ways, because the preference among urban residents has resulted in an unnatural ratio between boys and girls. This is known though, of course, in China. Chinese people are not children that need to have everything explained to them by the all mighty westerner.

As a result, over the last decade, the society has been going through a major shift in how they perceive children, and girls are now getting even more spoiled than boys used to be.

It is a useless attempt at criticism this idiotic whining by foreigners about China's One Child Policy and it seems to be just another of those things that foreigners want to pick up on as any stick possible to try and beat China with.

Ridiculous! But hey, any insult available to try and use against China seems to be the modus operandi of many to try and focus attention on any place but their own and any problems other than their own.

Even the one child policy is not written in stone, and if a family has the financial wherewithal to provide - in advance - for that child's increased strain on the infrastructure, education, health, consumption of resources, until their 18th birthday so that the taxpayer isn't footing the bill, then those families that wish to and can do so, may have more children.

Foreigners just have to get over it. China isn't listening to you on this point - or, for that matter, on many other points.

The Chinese people know what's going on and why, the China government knows what's going on and why, and even though nobody is dancing in the streets about how wonderful the one-child policy is for them personally, one of the strongest aspects about Chinese people is that they will do what they see as necessary for their nation even if it is something as close to the heart as are children.

Better to have fewer well-fed, well-educated, well-clothed children than too many uneducated, unfed, homeless, poverty-stricken children running around in the streets, forming gangs, buying and selling drugs, buying and using guns, breaking into stores to steal, killing for money and drugs or just amusement.

There will come a time when this policy is no longer needed...and it is coming sooner rather than later...and then China will burgeon to 2 billion...but they will all be well-fed, well-clothed, well-educated...and just watch the hue and cry from the so-called "west" then! They will be the ones advocating restricting of children in China...and the people of China and the government of China will ignore that, as well.

It will be the so-called "western" countries moaning and gnashing their teeth because a rich country with 2 billion people will of course need far more resources than - oh, I don't know, let's say a piddly little country in population comparison of a mere 300 million. All the oil in the world will need to go under the auction block to the highest bidder, all the steel in the world will need to go under the auction block to the highest bidder, all the food will need to go under the auction block to the highest bidder, and with a population of 2 billion, wonder who the highest bidder will be?

Of course, China would not buy up all the resources and food in the world...much would be spread within China's "sphere of influence" - and there would certainly be some that China would sell to others, and there will always be that amount that is simply given away to those in need...but if the pendulum swings the way the foreigners of today are whining about and seem to want to happen, then the result will not be too pretty...for the foreigner.

[SeriousCat]

It has been calculated by Chinese scientists that if the one-child policy had not been implemented, today, China would have over 2 Billion people, an unsustainable number by any stretch of the imagination. Starvation and internal strife would be running rampant, and although that is what seems to be a dream some have for China, it is fortunate for China that it would be more of a nightmare.

China's numbers were unsustainable because of the population increase under PRC-rule, not because of the birth rate. Thomas Malthus was lauded as a genius for his theories on the critical point of population growth in the world, however he is now seen as a fool for his obviously incorrect theories. Many have attempted to resurrect his views, however the "unsustainable population growth" he spoke of has still yet to appear.

This is not a policy that was lightly entered into. It was seen as a necessity and it has proven itself to be the correct thing to do albeit not lauded as a "great thing" by anybody in China.

I agree with you here. It was a great fear of the Party that the population would expand beyond control and consume all available resources, however many in the Party now see that the threat of population growth may not actually outweigh the demographic gender-imbalance problems.

Getting back to the China One Child Policy, again, it is not applied to rural communities so the attempt to link it to the preference for male offspring to work and so as to carry on the "line" as is a focus in most countries, falls flat. A farmer can have as many children as he or she wishes...just that they keep trying until they get a male, but as education even in rural areas just keeps on increasing and improving like everything else in China, this ancient idea is also beginning to lose it's luster.

This was not always the case. After forced abortions, sterilisations, and other crimes against Chinese citizens, rural discontent forced the Party to relax its One Child Policy. Also, I would like to note that it is not a "one child" policy, but rather a "one birth" policy.

Chinese people are not children that need to have everything explained to them by the all mighty westerner.

Nobody here is saying that. Try to be civil and let's keep this discussion on topic.

Foreigners just have to get over it. China isn't listening to you on this point - or, for that matter, on many other points.

And that is a national shame. Simply because a country's government does not agree with another's views, does not mean that they cannot at least listen to their criticisms. If found invalid, then it can be ignored until further evidence is given. However, to simply ignore them without analysis into the criticisms is to ultimately harm themselves in the long-run.

The Chinese people know what's going on and why, the China government knows what's going on and why, and even though nobody is dancing in the streets about how wonderful the one-child policy is for them personally, one of the strongest aspects about Chinese people is that they will do what they see as necessary for their nation even if it is something as close to the heart as are children.

Alternatively, the people of China may not hold that view if the government had less than a totally unified vision for the country and a media to support those views. Such support is a little suspect when there is no free media in a country.

It will be the so-called "western" countries moaning and gnashing their teeth because a rich country with 2 billion people will of course need far more resources than - oh, I don't know, let's say a piddly little country in population comparison of a mere 300 million. All the oil in the world will need to go under the auction block to the highest bidder, all the steel in the world will need to go under the auction block to the highest bidder, all the food will need to go under the auction block to the highest bidder, and with a population of 2 billion, wonder who the highest bidder will be?

There's no need for your incredibly rude sarcasm. No one is attacking China on this forum. Rather, they are discussing political views and leanings. There's no need what-so-ever to bring down entire continents simply because you do not 'like' them. China is not going to become first-world for the next 50 years and some question the sustainability of its economic growth. You may be optimistic, but cautious optimism is best in this scenario.

The key, to me, stems from first, the government and people of China having the courage to admit there were mistakes, and then to working on fixing those mistakes. Add to the mix, the intelligence to accept that there may be some points of benefit in other systems, a willingness to analyze those other systems to see what could be applied with respect to what was also seen to be good about traditional and historical precedents, and then adopt or reject those that may work or had no hope of working. This one point is so often ignored by the so-called "west" as to appear as if some are afraid.

People often don't get praised for doing what is expected of them. That is exactly what the West expects of governments anywhere in the world: to do their job. Part of that is solving problems within the country. However, you have not mentioned that a problem is cheapest to solve when it has been prevented. Actually having the problem manifest and then solving it is the worst possible solution. Please refrain from insinuating that "Westerners" are cowards: they may worry over the shift in the balance of power, but it would be incorrect to say they are "afraid" of China.

I would suggest that it is exactly because of globalization that those who once thought they were the "ones" now find themselves just being "one of the ones" and thus afraid of their growing irrelevance while China increases in relevance.

Your optimism has run rampant I'm afraid. The U.S. will continue to be the dominant force in the economic, political, and military arenas for decades to come.

It was so much easier - for 'them" - when China was still not a "world player" because the propaganda rhetoric could flow so easily without the public asking embarrassing questions such as "Gee, if China is so bad, why do so many countries like China?" or "Gee, if the UN says China's illiteracy rate has dropped in less than two decades from 400 million illiterates to 100 million, and we are so much better than them, why is ours increasing?"

Those questions are embarrassing, however it is you that is asking them, not the "West".

People watching late night TV in the States must really be confused when China is being criticized on the one hand while Leno and Letterman et al are making jokes about the intellectual level of Chinese students being far higher than that of N. Americans, joking about Chinese companies being active all over the world, jokes even - although not intended as humor - about China being so scary that China will soon control the world!

Is it possible that you are getting a little carried away? China controlling the world in the foreseeable future? Not likely.

China has had nuclear weapons for nearly as long as has America and Russia...but unlike America has never used them on innocent people, whether to make a point or just to "test them out," and since the inevitable outcome of such folly as engaging in a nuclear war is anathema to all but the most moronic, China will not be starting one.

I doubt that you are privy to the PRC's long-term military strategy.

Ignoring that history - as far as the people of China are concerned - is as impossible as it is for China to blindly accept another country's political or social system.

Agreed. It took Mao Zedong a civil war in order to impose German Marxism on China. China has never "blindly" accepted another's ways. China has been studying the effectiveness of American institutions and by analysis, they conclude whther it is worthy of adoption.

Also, regarding the socialist aspects of China. China is arguable a mixture of both and is a prime example of a hybrid economy. However, this is not the point. In the media, they are continually portrayed as communist, whether you like it or not. This labeling of China as a communist nation automatically triggers a hot nerve in most Americans, since the US was the self-proclaimed global defender against communism. It is a misconception that China is still a purely socialist country, but that does not deter the public from labeling it as a communist nation.

Forgive me, I was merely discussing the more extreme elements (which do exist). China is mostly capitalist, but there are some sectors that have strong bureaucratic elements, such as state credit for favoured businesses. China is making the transition to a more capitalist system rather well. I agree that calling China "communist" is like calling Britain a "colonial empire" - both being irrelevant in today's period.

The original point is not that criticisms are uncalled for, but for each criticism, a fair overview of the whole issue should be discussed. That is, any positive impacts of a policy should be included in discussions regarding the policy's negative impacts. Only then can people formulate a logical and wholesome opinion on an issue. Understanding the positives are equally as important as understanding the negatives because it puts policy effects in perspective. In business, nobody would focus on costs without considering revenue. An ill-informed opinion is often worse than not having an opinion at all. While the latter may induce indifference, the former may trigger dangerous reactions from misguided thinking.

But who decides which information is relevant? For me, I would think that it would be up to the individual, so long as the full range of information is accessible. However, China bars its' citizens from a meaningful discussion because of massive nation-wide internet surveillance and a government-influenced media.

[Locke13]

And that is a national shame. Simply because a country's government does not agree with another's views, does not mean that they cannot at least listen to their criticisms. If found invalid, then it can be ignored until further evidence is given. However, to simply ignore them without analysis into the criticisms is to ultimately harm themselves in the long-run.

Thats amazing. Yet you still fail to recognise that we have been more then unfairly treated, being seen at the same level of dogs and other slander that had been quoted in this thread. Instead, you try to justify yourself by telling us our problem with the one child policy and picking out every single problem we have. If you want to criticise china, then start another thread and talk all you want. We just want you to recognise that you unfairly treat us, yet after 4 pages, all (maybe most of you as i confess some westeners have tried to defend our position) tell us our problems with the one child policy and censorship. We may be behind the bars of the media but it is you who fail to recognise your own fault in this. How many of us here don't know about the problems with china? How many of us here don't wish we could do something to improve it? We all love our country and it is for that reason that we feel so strongly against our mistreatment.

[SeriousCat]

Thats amazing. Yet you still fail to recognise that we have been more then unfairly treated, being seen at the same level of dogs and other slander that had been quoted in this thread. Instead, you try to justify yourself by telling us our problem with the one child policy and picking out every single problem we have. If you want to criticise china, then start another thread and talk all you want. We just want you to recognise that you unfairly treat us, yet after 4 pages, all (maybe most of you as i confess some westeners have tried to defend our position) tell us our problems with the one child policy and censorship. We may be behind the bars of the media but it is you who fail to recognise your own fault in this. How many of us here don't know about the problems with china? How many of us here don't wish we could do something to improve it? We all love our country and it is for that reason that we feel so strongly against our mistreatment.

If I have offended you, then I humbly apologise. I realise that politics is a contact sport, even if it's just a hobby or past-time for some. Understand that I am both a Westerner and a Chinese person, with Cantonese being half my ethnic background. The first step to problems is identification. Without identifying the problem, it can only be solved by accident. It is not mistreatment to suggest areas for improvement. I personally make a clear distinction between constructive and destructive criticism, and I do believe that China is far from perfect - as are all nations - and it would be a great loss to China if it did not seek to improve. Nations are always improving, however foreign criticism has contributed to the advances as well. We should not ignore legitimate criticisms or even dare I say illegitimate ones - how would one know that Nazism is evil in nature without first examining the political ideology?