[ati373]

Lets face it, the definition of civilisation is in European terms. This is why the notion of barbaric Africans stood and exactly why African architecture is viewed as being sub standard. Its all a matter of perception. what would be magnificent to Africans was tacky to Europeans but what settles the argument is that while there were many great African dynasties, the European monuments stood the test of time and history is written by the winners right? African monuments and art were hardly ever done for recognition though, there was always a function, so it was never really a matter of being remembered which something the Europeans almost obsessed over.

[Invictus_88]

Lets face it, the definition of civilisation is in European terms. This is why the notion of barbaric Africans stood and exactly why African architecture is viewed as being sub standard. Its all a matter of perception. what would be magnificent to Africans was tacky to Europeans but what settles the argument is that while there were many great African dynasties, the European monuments stood the test of time and history is written by the winners right? African monuments and art were hardly ever done for recognition though, there was always a function, so it was never really a matter of being remembered which something the Europeans almost obsessed over.

India and China are both fairly resolutely un-European as historical cultures, but both are admired for their historical civilisations.

The African cultures seem to be treated differently not because they are African, but because they didn't bring about a blossoming of artistic, lyric, linguistic, architectural, administrative (ect blah ect) civilisation that overflowed from its centres into the surrounding area, into the rest of the world.

[hip hop bunny hop]

Invictus, you make a good point. However, what you also have to keep in mind is what sort of cultures in Subsaharan Africa were encountered once Europeans began to trade in earnest; even the "advanced" cultures encountered lacked what we moderns consider the most basic of technological achievements. Consider that the most advanced West African cultures had no concept of the wheel until the Europeans introduced it to them. They had no concept of levers. Consider that, as shown in the book "US Neo-Colonialism in Africa", the tribesmen who came to work in open pit mines to pay their taxes were so utterly ignorant of modern tools that the administrators of these mines considered it a waste of time to teach them how to use shovels, pick axes, and wheel barrows - instead, it was more efficient to simply let the Africans dig out the ore with their bare hands.

[Zyx]

instead, it was more efficient to simply let the Africans dig out the ore with their bare hands.

Some White people certainly have a low view of Black people, justifying such gross inhumanities without any respect for the measure of humankind.

[Godstud]

the tribesmen who came to work in open pit mines to pay their taxes were so utterly ignorant of modern tools that the administrators of these mines considered it a waste of time to teach them how to use shovels, pick axes, and wheel barrows - instead, it was more efficient to simply let the Africans dig out the ore with their bare hands.

[cut.] Provide a source for your utterly racist and ignorant statement. [cut.]

[hip hop bunny hop]

Godstud, you are a victim of what those who've studied Anthropology call "ethnocentrism", a horribly crass ideology that makes discussing Subsaharan Africans most difficult. But, it's ok - people like myself are here to educate you.

What a load of bullshit. Provide a source for your utterly racist and ignorant statement. That's about the stupidest thing I've ever seen posted.

...it's like I referenced my source in that post, as shown in the book "US Neo-Colonialism in Africa", . A simple google search results in, "Stewart Smith. U.S. neocolonialism in Africa (International Publishers, NY, 1974)." Wikipedia tells us this about the publishing company, International Publishers is a book publishing company based in New York City specializing in Marxist works of economics, political science, and history. The company was established in 1924 by A.A. Heller and Alexander Trachtenberg, using funds earned through a lucrative trade concession granted during the New Economic Policy by the government of Soviet Russia. The publisher has continued to maintain an extremely close working relationship with the Communist Party USA (CPUSA) throughout its more than eight decades of existence. It continues in operation in New York City today as the publishing arm of the American Communist Party.. The back of the book provides, in the form of biography, that the authors real name is Stuar. J Seborer, and that he entered college at the age of 15 and did graduate work Colombia & GWU. He was a Captain in WW2, recieved various medals, and left the USA due to McCarthyism and wound up in the USSR - where he wrote this book.

Want a specific page reference? How about page 111, "As late as the 1950's, in the Gold Coast, thousands of men have never seen a pick or shovel; in Nigeria, laborers carry baskets of ore on their heads; in the Ivory Coast quarries, men work without even the shovel and wheelbarrow because "it wasn't worthwhile to teach them as they were engaged only for a few days or weeks.""

I was able to locate this rather quickly, due to two things:

1. The book, although written for the masses, has an academic bent and therefor has an index.

2. The disparaging epithet for this laborers was "banana motor". That's quite memorable.

[HelicioNOD]

Sub-Saharan Africa had two unique disadvantages that may have prevented them from bringing about the type of cultural and architectural accomplishments of some other places.

1.) Sahara Desert
Although some did cross it, the giant slab of unpopulated land no doubt made things difficult.

2.) Limited early interaction with other peoples
Why? Many reasons, including (but not limited to) the Sahara

I am of Lebanese/French descent and quite proud of the accomplishments brought about by the Phoenicians and my French ancestors. However, let's not get carried away. African or European or Asian, we are individuals; just because people from the past who shared our melanin levels or language accomplished great things shouldn't really give us that much of a sense of entitlement.

As for Africans posting in this thread: don't lie to yourselves. Africa did NOT, generally, leave a technological, scientific, or architectural mark on the world like Europe, Asia, and early Latin America. However--is this really a bad thing? God knows, civilization has left more than one horrid mark on the world.

All in all, humans are horrifyingly equal. Some people like to say they are somehow better than others (And this does not just apply to people of European descent, as I know from dealing with all the African-American Studies majors in college who denigrate "Anglo" [i.e.--white] culture any chance they get). In the end though, we are individuals, and we differ much more within our own groups than between them.

[Godstud]

Please provide a link so I may read this for myself.

[Zyx]

Why do you call everyone racist?

White people made Black people mine with their hands. Telling it like it is is telling it like it is; not racist.

Blacks not knowing how to work shovels isn't accurate, duh, they were slaves in the Americas working shovels, but severe mistreatment is the real lesson to be learned.

Calling people racist doesn't erase history.

Erasing history is really what's racist.

[Godstud]

Altering history so that it confirms your beliefs about race, is racist.

[Zyx]

No one is altering history; we're putting in the details.

You're the one altering history to make it 'raceless.' That's by your definition racist, racist.

[hip hop bunny hop]

1924? Eh? Please re-read what I wrote. The book was published in 1974. Hence the bit about the author being, you know, a decorated American veteran of WW2 prior to defecting to the USSR due to McCarthyism. So, this guy was not racist - he was Commie, and he risked his life fighting against NAZIsm, and his efforts in doing so were recognized by the USA.

And, sadly, I can't find a link for this book nor what appears to be the most relevant reference in that portion of the book (Jack Woddis' "Africa - The Roots of Revolt", published in 1960)... despite the fact that "U.S. Neocolonialism in Africa" was published by a de facto arm the CPUSA, it is not available of the Marxists internet archive. My page citation is correct.

[Godstud]

I edited it immediately. 12 minutes before your [cut.] post. please look instead of yapping.

I can't find any sign that this book even exists.

Commies can be racists too.

[hip hop bunny hop]

I can't find any sign that this book even exists.

Really? Did you try google? I did. Here's what I got, very quickly: it's a reference in the Wikipedia article entitled, "Neocolonialism". There's over 200 other hits for it, see? (<----HYPERLINK)

I find it hard to believe a Commie, who was evidently incredibly intelligent if he entered college at the age of 15, and then went on to risk his life by volunteering to fight NAZIsm in Europe, and earning several medals in the process (Silver Star, Bronze Star & Cluster, Purple Heart, and 4 campaign medals), who fled the USA due to McCarthyism, and then dedicated a freaking book to lambasting America's "NeoColonialism"... would be a racist.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/159800 <--- yes, it's a real book.

[Okonkwo]

[Mod Note:] Godstud, if I see one more occasion of you using the word "stupid" in a borderline rule-violating way in this thread, I'll delete your posts and warn you. If you cannot conduct a debate in an orderly and polite way, then you are not allowed to post here. Thank you.

[Godstud]

I'll be good, Okonkwo.

I find it hard to believe a Commie, who was evidently incredibly intelligent if he entered college at the age of 15, and then went on to risk his life by volunteering to fight NAZIsm in Europe, and earning several medals in the process (Silver Star, Bronze Star & Cluster, Purple Heart, and 4 campaign medals), who fled the USA due to McCarthyism, and then dedicated a freaking book to lambasting America's "NeoColonialism"... would be a racist.

Using scientific data to denigrate an ethnic group is still racism. Being an intelligent, well educated, Communist and creating a book about lambasting America's NeoColonialism, does not make one free from bias and prejudice.

Perhaps if more information was provided it might not be seen as racist. When you only say one negative statement, without an explanation as to the why, you are creating a bias, even if it IS factual. It's a form of scientific racism.

1. The disparaging epithet for this laborers was "banana motor"

Why even bother with this sort of thing if he's lambasting America? It seems more like he's lambasting the Africans.

That's quite memorable.

Your comment?

[hip hop bunny hop]

Godstud, he nor I was using the facts to denigrate any ethnic group. It's simply a fact I related in this conversation as many were making noises about advanced West African Civilizations, and were making these civilizations out to be very similar to those more well known civilizations from the same period. This is simply not the case; the differences were tremendous, as shown by the ignorance of how to use what the Occident considers basic tools.

Perhaps if more information was provided it might not be seen as racist. When you only say one negative statement, without an explanation as to the why, you are creating a bias, even if it IS factual. It's a form of scientific racism.

I would really like to have an argument about whether "Scientific Racism" can even exist, but this thread is about subsaharan civilizations - and we should keep it such.

Anyways, if you want more info: colonial governments in the subsaharan (and elsewhere) compelled the indigenous to work through taxation. Basically; the indigenous had to pay taxes, and the only way they could pay taxes was with the appropriate currency. This meant that the indigenous had two options: (A) extract the raw materials in demand or (B) some combination of imprisonment, forced labor, corporal punishment. So, the colonial governments would initiate this policy, and it was largely carried out by a group that would become the "comprador bourgeoise" - who would force natives lower on the hierarchy to pay taxes. The Comprador's were usually some combination of religious or ethnic minority in the region.... berbers were used in morocco, for example.

Why even bother with this sort of thing if he's lambasting America? It seems more like he's lambasting the Africans. & Your comment?

It wasn't his epithet, he was simply quoting the plantation owners in the Ivory Coast. A "Banana Motor", you see, was named such because that was his cost. Bananas. They were sustained entirelly on banana's - thus, they were viewed as cheaper than any machine or tool that could be used to improve efficiency. Further, as the "banana motors" were not slaves, there was no cause for concern if one died or got mutilated or what have you - as long as there were negroes who needed to pay their taxes, the supply was (for all intents and purposes) inexhaustible.