[Tainari88]

KFlint I wanted to give you a brief and interesting history of the island that might be of interest to you. Did you know that Puerto Rico was actually the name of the city and the island was named San Juan Bautista. St. John the Baptist. But over time the name of the capital city and the name of the island were exchanged (the names flip-flopped). The original Indian name for the island was Bo-ri-ken. Or "Borinquen" in Spanish. It meant in the Taino language "The land of the Noble Lord". Tainos were part of the Arawak group from the tropical zones of South America. Genetically the Tainos are related to the indigenous groups in the Venezuelan and Colombian jungles. Compared to the native Caribs they were 'newcomers' to the Caribbean basin.

Puerto Rico is almost three fourths mountainous. Its plains and flat lands are extremely over populated. It has a lot of interdependent micro climates that are very well balanced. Puerto Rico has lost enormous amounts of virgin forest with development. It is one of the world's most densely populated land bases in the world. It has a lot of people per square mile. It doesn't have nuclear power at all for its electricity. It is located in a volcanic area of the world but has no active volcanic activity. It had no indigenous predators such as jaguars, poisonous snakes, etc.

At the time of the conquest, it had tremendously pure water with plentiful rivers, streams and underground caverns of all sorts.

Politically it belonged to Spain from about 1493-1898. It was ruled by military US appointees from 1898-1948. Fifty years without any self rule of any sort from the USA. This is of course due to the Spanish American war. If ever you are in San Juan (the Capital city) you will see the clock stopped in 'La Fortaleza' (the Governors' mansion), in the exact minute when Spain stopped ruling Puerto Rico. The Spanish put a sword through the clock.

Puerto Rican history is a Caribbean island history that has to do with having to adapt to rules and laws established to favor interests that were located far, far away. And that had little to do with local needs. How these two reconciled is quite interesting and also a study in human adaptation and human behavior.

One of the most interesting ethnographers and anthropologists who have studied Puerto Rican culture for many years is a man by the name of Sidney Mintz. His book:

http://sidneymintz.net/sugar.php

If you study the history of sugar in the world KFlint....you get an idea of why areas of the world that had the right climate for sugar became so desireable to colonize. The history of the land and the people who occupy that land all are interconnected. It all makes 'sense' to study all cultures within their geographical and physical context. The history of the Caribbean is about the beginning of the Americas. It is called the "Antilles" which is 'the before'. We are the 'before' of the Americas.

Which part of Puerto Rico do you want to study KFlint? The history of the people? The history of the language? The history of the land? The political problems? The activists? The political figures? The artists and musicians? the writers and poets? What? The Scientists? The astronomers and physicists?

Many people don't really think Puerto Rico amounted to much before the USA arrived. Lol. But the USA arrived interested in acquiring the island for the reasons that Mintz describes in his anthropological research on the history of a commodity. Sugar.

Also the USA had an interest in expanding and it was still in the throes of its manifest destiny stage as well.

Where do you want to go with this KFlint?

Soy tuya para hacer conmigo lo que quieras (I am yours to do with as you will).

[U184]

Thank you so very much.

I have not had a chance to read it yet as I am just now finishing up a 96 hour straight work period, so I am off to get some sleep.

As for where I want to go, for now I leave that up to you, be my guide, what should I know? As for the specifics, what can you tell me that I can not find myself by doing research? Like cultural aspects, the feelings of the people regarding their country, their own culture/diversity, government and how they feel about the USA.

What are some of the local customs, myths, kids stories, lullabies, etc?

Thanks again,
~KF

[Social_Critic]

Tainari, when I studied this subject in Cuba I was taught the Tainos and the Siboneyes pre-dated Caribe invasions. The Caribes were latecomers, much more advanced in the way they waged war, and were exterminating the previous Taino and Siboney cultures when the Spanish arrived.

[Daktoria]

Sugar...

...bleh.

[Tainari88]

Thank you so very much.

I have not had a chance to read it yet as I am just now finishing up a 96 hour straight work period, so I am off to get some sleep.

As for where I want to go, for now I leave that up to you, be my guide, what should I know? As for the specifics, what can you tell me that I can not find myself by doing research? Like cultural aspects, the feelings of the people regarding their country, their own culture/diversity, government and how they feel about the USA.

What are some of the local customs, myths, kids stories, lullabies, etc?

Thanks again,
~KF

KFlint, one of the best descriptions about who we are 'spiritually' as a people was done by an American photographer by the name of Jack Delano. He was hired initially by the Roosevelt administration during the Great Depression and WWII to go to the island and take photographs and to detail the circumstances of the people. At that time in history there was enormous hardship in the USA and in Puerto Rico it was even worse. My father lived through it in his early childhood. He was born in 1933 and lived in a slum in San Juan called "El Fanguito". Little Mud. In Little Mud, the houses were haphazard things put together with any scrap material. People were mostly unemployed and if you were a landless peasant that went to the city looking for work and not finding any, you were relegated to squatter status and food was hard to come by. My paternal grandfather was a fruit seller and he was illiterate. Many days he sold nothing and did not even bring home a few nickels to feed the family with. My father recalls being barefoot and going hungry many days. His father died (my paternal grandfather) of TB (tuberculosis) in 1941. According to Jack Delano that was a very common occurrence. So were common diseases.

Let me see if I can find the preface of "Puerto Rico Mio" by Jack Delano? His preface sums up his thoughts on who the Puerto Ricans are as a whole people quite well. He moved there with his wife and had lifelong friendships and became an 'honorary' Puerto Rican. Sometimes those who are not from the culture initially are the best describers of who a people are. But only the ones who put in enormous years and time and effort in understanding a group. They have distance but they also have love of the culture. They usually are the most 'objective' of them all!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Delano

I wish I can find it. If not I think I can paraphrase what he said. I found it right on target.

The feelings of the people of Puerto Rico toward the USA? It is interesting. Many Puerto Ricans have ambivalent feelings about it. In fact, in general Puerto Ricans are ambivalent about almost everything to do with the USA and its government. That is why the island has never had any clearly defined direction to go in. OTOH, the USA is the island's security blanket. OTOH, they feel cheated and like outsiders looking into a society they have no power, no stake in, and ultimately who's culture they really don't live day by day. So many people I know think that Puerto Ricans somehow speak English as their primary language, are Protestants, or some kind of ethnic American thinkers. Like Hawaiians who speak English and all they have of their culture left are some hula skirts and ukeleles and some place names and pagan religious beliefs but who all in all are assimilated. Some things are true about that. But overall? Even after 115+ years of colonizing the island....no, I have to say--the majority don't speak English, the majority are not Protestants and the majority are not really thinking like mainstream, mainland Americans.

[Social_Critic]

You could vote for independence, I guess.

[Tainari88]

Tainari, when I studied this subject in Cuba I was taught the Tainos and the Siboneyes pre-dated Caribe invasions. The Caribes were latecomers, much more advanced in the way they waged war, and were exterminating the previous Taino and Siboney cultures when the Spanish arrived.

If you are an older gentleman Social Critic you must realize those 'theories' might have been based on old and outdated archaeological evidence. The most recent archaeological evidence paints a different picture. The Caribs were more war like and more aggressive because they occupied the big islands with the best land. Cuba and Hispaniola (Haiti and the Dominican Republic) had the largest land masses in the Caribbean. Puerto Rico was relatively far away. If you see this map of the Caribbean islands you shall see that PR is a lot farther from Cuba than Miami or Jamaica. For the Caribs to get to Puerto Rico and exterminate them would be hard to do. And Puerto Rico has the Mona Passage. It is notorious for squalls and heavy storms and PR also has the deepest point of the Caribbean sea and the Atlantic Ocean off its coastline. It is not an easy place to get to in general. It is an excellent geographical position to have because it is close to South America but also close to the rest of the islands and it is the biggest island for unloading things from South America and the Western parts of Africa. It is an ideal location for military purposes. It always has been.

[Jackal]

When I have visited Puerto Rico, most (if not all) of them are very fond of the United States.

[Tainari88]

Oh, Jackal they might be 'fond' but do they speak English all the time? Lol. No they don't. They speak Spanish and they stick to Hispanic cultural modes that are distinctive to the Caribbean Spanish islands. If they are fond why don't they drop the Spanish all together? They don't for many reasons.

Puerto Ricans don't need visas to live in the USA. They can just pack their bags and go. Many do go to get better jobs or to get an education in English. But the ones who remain CHOOSE to do so. Why? Have you thought about why they choose to stay on the island when there are no 'green card' problems in moving? If you think about it? It is a part of nationalism that remains. It is always that way with places who have very small or few groups who are not from the native society living there.

[Jackal]

I live in a city where 1/4 or maybe even 1/3 people (unfortunately) do not speak English and can live a full-life without ever having to do so. These people are Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Nicaraguans, Colombians and Venezuelans.

English is not a require to be fond of America.

[Soulflytribe]

The only way of creating an independent Puerto Rico State is by doing a referendum in the US, and not in Puerto Rico anymore. The 0,000001% of Puerto Rican nationalists should abandon Puerto Rico and start working together with conservative American parties and other conservative segments of the American society and lobby the independence of their country. Pools made in the US say that Americans want the independence of Puerto Rico more than the Puerto Ricans themselves.

[Tainari88]

I live in a city where 1/4 or maybe even 1/3 people (unfortunately) do not speak English and can live a full-life without ever having to do so. These people are Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Nicaraguans, Colombians and Venezuelans.

English is not a require to be fond of America.

Aha, I got you. Lol. I did. You are equating Puerto Ricans with Cubans, Dominicans, Nicaraguans and Venezuelans and Colombians. All people who have independent and sovereign nations. Puerto Rico is supposed to be an integral part of the USA. No differences between Puerto Ricans and mainland Americans. At least that is what is expected from the Right wing thinkers on the island. Yet, over and over again I meet the Dominicans, Nicaraguans, Venezuelans, Cubans, etc. and none of them equate a Puerto Rican with an American from the USA? WHY? Answer that for me Jackal. Why can't they equate them as the same?

[Jackal]

Because Puerto Ricans maintain a similar culture to them, unlike American culture.

Dominicans, Cubans, Nicaraguans, etc. could not care less about whether Puerto Ricans are technically Americans or not, they (for the most part) care about culture.

I am an American of Cuban and Spanish descent but my own lifestyle is more "WASP" in the way I (and always have) speak, look, skin tone, dress, mannerisms, interests, etc. However, Cubans care more about me being Cuban (only on the basis that my grandparents were born in Cuba and nothing else) than American which is similar to your Puerto Rican example. I am far more American than Cuban or Spanish, yet I am not American in the eyes of most Dominicans, (new school) Cubans, Nicaraguans, etc.

[Tainari88]

Because Puerto Ricans maintain a similar culture to them, unlike American culture.

Dominicans, Cubans, Nicaraguans, etc. could not care less about whether Puerto Ricans are technically Americans or not, they (for the most part) care about culture.

Aha! We have arrived at what makes a people separate Jackal. Culture. That is the core for having sovereignty. Culture and what is called deep culture which encompasses values, history, language, and land mass that is a shared basis for that history. The Latin Americans recognize Puerto Ricans as Latin Americans. Not WASPS. We are not WASPS Jackal. We never have been. But the USA is a big mosaic of different people. I don't consider you a WASP either. You are an American no doubt about it. But you are also Cuban. Many Cubans emphasize their Spanish heritage a lot over any native Cuban influences. As far as I am concerned you are not a Spaniard from Spain. KlassWar is a Spaniard from Valencia. He is born and raised in Spain of Spanish parents. You? No. You were not born in Spain. You were not raised in Spain. So you are therefore not Spanish. Got to be clear on terms.

Am I American? Such a general and generic term. No, I am not. I was not born in the USA of American born parents. So I am not American. I am Puerto Rican. But Puerto Ricans are USA citizens. But not the constitutional kind. A different kind. A statutory kind. Why does congress have different classifications for USA citizens? That is what should be analyzed well. Instead people start in on the crap of "We are fond of the USA". I am not talking about fondness. I am talking about why the USA congress decided to create different classifications for USA citizenship? A nationalized previously Mexican citizen once they become nationalized USA citizens can't have their citizenship repealed or revoked by the USA congress without due process. The statutory citizens can. WHY?

And why are Puerto Ricans, American Samoans, Guamanians (chamorros) and others like the US Virgin Islanders having to live with these special citizenship status'? That is the question one should ask the USA congress and have them defend their position. They have explained it in the past as necessary to control the land of these places, but they don't find a need to give these places political power to sway the controlling actor (the congress) that is effectively an unfair power relationship and bound to cause issues in the present and in the future. What has kept things flowing are the dollars to pacify any kind of rebellion. Without the dollars? It is doubtful people remain complacent with the present limbo situation Jackal. It is not a solution for the long term. It just is not.

People get so caught up with defending the morality of the USA's history and lose total objectivity when analyzing the reality of their 'acts'. Analyze the actions of the USA, not the empty rhetoric. If they believe in equal rights for all Jackal? Why don't they just act in congress and just do what they did at the beginning? Don't consult them and just give them political rights? Make them new states of the union? What is the reasoning behind making them USA citizens without that? What is the motivation?

[Jackal]

But you are also Cuban. Many Cubans emphasize their Spanish heritage a lot over any native Cuban influences. As far as I am concerned you are not a Spaniard from Spain. KlassWar is a Spaniard from Valencia. He is born and raised in Spain of Spanish parents. You? No. You were not born in Spain. You were not raised in Spain. So you are therefore not Spanish. Got to be clear on terms.

Neither one of my parents were born in Cuba, either, so I am not Cuban by your definition (nor by mine). As I said, I am American, at least culturally. Ethnically/Biologically, I am actually Basque, Celtic, Anglo-Saxon and Germanic considering my maternal grandfather was born in Cuba but is the son of a Basque and an Asturian (Celtic), my maternal grandmother is Asturian (Celtic), my paternal grandfather was born somewhere in the English midlands and my paternal grandmother was born in Yorkshire, England and was the daughter of German immigrants.

I am not really Cuban, Latin American, Hispanic, Latino, etc. but others seem to think so (other Hispanics, that is). My family does not speak Spanish like Cubans, they speak are more neutral Spanish and is probably closer to Castellano and Asturianu. The only thing we really retain from Cuban culture is dominoes, cigar, rum and (sometimes) food that we eat. EDIT: However, like I said, they don't care about what I am but what culture I belong to (or supposedly belong to), simply because I have a grandparent born in Cuba and another that emigrated there from Asturias. The same applies to how they don't consider Puerto Ricans really being Americans.

As for the our American territories, I support the American Empire so we must possess all the territories in the world. If they want to become states, then both the USA and the the territory in question need to put it up to a vote.

You would know more than me on Puerto Rico but, like I said, most people on the island I have come into contact with do not seem bothered by their current status. The same actually goes for the two times I have visited the US Virigin Islands.

Sorry if this post seems a bit rushed, but I must really get back to work.

[Smertios]

a Basque and an Asturian (Celtic), my maternal grandmother is Asturian (Celtic)

This si debatable. Basques and Asturians are no more Celtic than the Portuguese or Galicians, who were celticized and romanized later...

Actually, that is valid for pretty much every people in Western Europe. If you go far back enough, even a German will have a Celtic ancestor. Maybe not an Scandinavian, though..

[Jackal]

The Basque side is Basque, the Asturian side is Celtic.

[Tainari88]

Neither one of my parents were born in Cuba, either, so I am not Cuban by your definition (nor by mine). As I said, I am American, at least culturally. Ethnically/Biologically, I am actually Basque, Celtic, Anglo-Saxon and Germanic considering my maternal grandfather was born in Cuba but is the son of a Basque and an Asturian (Celtic), my maternal grandmother is Asturian (Celtic), my paternal grandfather was born somewhere in the English midlands and my paternal grandmother was born in Yorkshire, England and was the daughter of German immigrants.

I am not really Cuban, Latin American, Hispanic, Latino, etc. but others seem to think so (other Hispanics, that is). My family does not speak Spanish like Cubans, they speak are more neutral Spanish and is probably closer to Castellano and Asturianu. The only thing we really retain from Cuban culture is dominoes, cigar, rum and (sometimes) food that we eat. EDIT: However, like I said, they don't care about what I am but what culture I belong to (or supposedly belong to), simply because I have a grandparent born in Cuba and another that emigrated there from Asturias. The same applies to how they don't consider Puerto Ricans really being Americans.

As for the our American territories, I support the American Empire so we must possess all the territories in the world. If they want to become states, then both the USA and the the territory in question need to put it up to a vote.

You would know more than me on Puerto Rico but, like I said, most people on the island I have come into contact with do not seem bothered by their current status. The same actually goes for the two times I have visited the US Virigin Islands.

Sorry if this post seems a bit rushed, but I must really get back to work.

Jackal, do you think people in Ireland are bothered by their current status? Lol. Do you think people in any politically difficult situation live and breathe 24/7 their political status? No. Most people are busy LIVING their lives. When they can't do that anymore then they pay attention to less important questions such as? We need to change the status. If Puerto Ricans were interested in being a state of the USA they would have 100% of the voters voting for it. At least a majority. But they don't. Colonialism is a very difficult thing to deal with. Ask India. Ask all the ex-colonies including the USA. The American Revolutionary war was not a fait accompli. It had to be battled out. Then the English tried to recapture their American colonies in the war 1812 on. That is LIFE.

Jackal that is why you are a far right man and I am not. I don't believe in conquering the world and controlling from afar. That stuff doesn't work in general in the long haul. It never does. All people seek some form of control over their own land and own communities. That is why nationalism exists.

It is not about being 'happy' colonials. It is about taking responsibility. Total responsibility for your OWN society and being able to make mistakes and fail and pick yourself up and own up to the mistake, learn from it, and IMPROVE and become self governing and self regulating. It makes societies stronger, better, more self sufficient and mature and responsible. Hell, Jackal we want that for our children yet don't want that for nations that don't belong to the same ethos or cultural history? Why? Because people want the right to control others but not give them equal rights? WHY NOT? If your explanation is that American hegemony is the destiny of the world--I suggest you invade half the planet with wars and drain the coffers of the USA worse than they have been and see how long the USA remains in a hegemonic position when it pours billions of dollars a year into trying to control from afar places that are occupied by people who think differently, are different and who have been on a land they have not been on for centuries and figure out just how hard artificial nation building is.

Votes are manipulated and elections are all about money and lies. So? How is that a proven method of realizing self determination? It is not. The only way is the fire of change and then the separation, the problems and finally getting some self accountability. There is no other 'easy' way towards a free or independent society that knows how to navigate the waters of self sufficiency. No magic to it at all. The reality is that all sense of independence and a way forward in life is necessary but is a process that has to do with sacrifice, and responsibility. And being colonized does the opposite of what is necessary for all human societies.

That is why I am not a fascist Jackal. It is against what is necessary for societies. People need to be respected, cultures need to be respected, and if you make a group of people citizens of your nation you better give them equal rights or let them GO.

Let them GO! Like that old bible verse from the Old testament.....of the Egyptian Pharaohs and the Jews. "Let my people go!"

The limbo stuff is not working Jackal. You don't have a stake in it. But it doesn't work. It doesn't provide a long term solution and self rule in any real way. That is not productive. Anyone knows this. But, the good news is that nothing this ambivalent and confusing lasts forever.

[Jackal]

The American Imperialism bit was mainly being facetious. While I support economic imperialism to an extent, I do not care much for cultural imperialism and I respect nationalist, being a nationalist myself.

To be frank, I would not mind if Puerto Rico gained independence if that is what they desired. I would only mind if American businesses were absored by the Puerto Rican state, something along the lines of what Castro did in Cuba and more recently what Kirchner did in Argentina with some Spanish-owned companies.

We are both on a similar side of the issue of independence, despite being on opposite sides of the political spectrum, but I would guess we are not on a similar side on what should happen after Puerto Rican independence.

Like I said, my comments were rushed so I may not have been able to get my full views down.

I must ask, though, what do you think should happen after a theoretical Puerto Rican independence in terms of the island's economic and political structure?

[Tainari88]

Imperialism exists due to modern capitalism Jackal. There is a need for conquering other lands in order to have access to whatever the capitalists at the time need it for. You can't divorce capitalism and imperialism. They go together like cake and ice cream or eggs and bacon. Lol.

Puerto Rico after independence is going to go through enormous upheaval. That is a given. All change makes a nation unstable for a while. But, I think Puerto Rico has many means to explore self sufficiency. Especially in today's world. I think the way economies should be structured Jackal is having people work at something they are good at and in which they have a vested interest in preserving. Giving people basic rights and basic economic security. And living a balanced life. A time for working hard, a time for study or self improvement, a time for their families and friends, a time for vacation and a time for retirement and reflection. Balance. In all things.

You know what made me laugh a lot Jackal. In a Puerto Rican website there was a thread in which many conservative in politics Puerto Ricans started to ridicule how an independent nation would look like. So what did I do? I painted a picture of them of what a Puerto Rican 51st state would look like. Ricans speaking bad Spanish and no Spanish, the best land and places going to rich, Anglo tourists with money, having some Indianapolis 500 close down the streets in San Juan, and painted the absolute worst aspects of American mainland culture...as the norm. The best of the island for foreigners and the worst ghettos of the USA and complete obliteration of all aspects of Puerto Rican culture as a consequence. Lol. Even the die hard statehooders got HYSTERICAL at the mere descriptions. I laughed so hard.....I nearly hit the floor! One woman by the screename Tati.....who was a die hard statehooder....she was writing in Spanish...."It could happen. My God it is a nightmare. I hate speaking English, I only do it when I absolutely have to. I don't like hot dogs. I don't like all that etc. etc."

People are thinking of immediate financial interests. But they don't really want to give up their national identities in any real way. It is what gives people meaning Jackal. It is what gives us a sense of belonging. You give that up? You die as a nation, as a culture and as a people. Most nations resist that til the bitter end.