[Smertios]

http://www.economist.com/node/21543494

This is a great article by the economist. The terms of use prevent me from pasting the content itself here due to copyrights, but the hyperlink is (obviously) okay. Anyone can read the article for free in the site.

And I guess that fair use legislation allows me to post part of the content for non-commercial purposes:

“Few these days still call Brazil a “racial democracy”. As Antonio Riserio, a sociologist from Bahia, put it in a recent book: “It’s clear that racism exists in the US. It’s clear that racism exists in Brazil. But they are different kinds of racism.” In Brazil, he argues, racism is veiled and shamefaced, not open or institutional. Brazil has never had anything like the Ku Klux Klan, or the ban on interracial marriage imposed in 17 American states until 1967.”

This is the most important part, in my opinion. Brazil has had it's own racial relations for centuries. And I know many people disagree, but we have been a racial democracy. The idea that Brazil is a "rainbow nation", when it comes to race is true. Nowadays we are adopting a policy of a false dichotomy, a la US. Affirmative action is leading to weird situations. Like it is mentioned in the article, it is perfectly common for two children from a multiracial family to receive different classifications. One can be white and the other can be considered brown or black. It happens a lot. And now, thanks to the American-style affirmative action policy, we are forced to divide people into two categories: white or negro. Negro, according to the Brazilian census institute, is officially viewed as someone who is either brown or black. For the first time, the census gathered those two groups into one. Thanks to American influence, the one-drop rule has been introduced in Brazil.

Of course, while this action was praised by the black movement (the number of "blacks" in Brazil raised from 6% to almost 50% thanks to this de facto one-drop rule), it came with lots of opposition by the mixed-race movement (you can see T-shirts with "I'm mulatto, not negro" all over Brazil nowadays). They are finally managing to turn Brazil into a second US now. The only difference is that whites here are only 50%, not 60-70%, as it happens in the US...

And, like the article mentions, affirmative action is a type of racism, anyways...

[Soulflytribe]

The curse of Brazil is that we tend to hate everything good the US has to offer, we dislike private property, democracy, free market, low taxes, but we think that is "progressive" to import the worst part of american society: its affirmative action policies and racism.

Have you already seen the sons of the brazilian fighter Anderson Silva? The boys were raised in the US and because they are black, they dress just like rap gangsters. I bet that if they were raised in Brazil, they would dress just like anybody else, they wouldn't have to search for their "racial culture and identity" and segregate themselves from the rest of society. The US is so segregated that they even say that blacks like more watermellon and KFC than the white people. Could we do something like that in Brazil? What traits and habits do the white people here have that the blacks don't have? We don't need these fucked up black quotas at Universities.

The last part of the article is PERFECT and says it all:

"American-style policies might not be the way to combat Brazil’s specific forms of racism. A combination of stronger legal action against discrimination and quotas for social class in higher education to compensate for weak public schools may work better."

That's obvious! Why a poor black kid deserves to enter at University and a poor white kid doesn't?

[Kman]

That's obvious! Why a poor black kid deserves to enter at University and a poor white kid doesn't?

Because white people are evil.

[Rugoz]

Affirmative action is popular because its cheap.

Tackling the root of the problem requires a commitment to invest heavily in the education of lower classes (meaning from age 2 til 25) and to enforce a good spacial mixture of different classes.

[Rancid]

The US is so segregated that they even say that blacks like more watermellon and KFC than the white people.

Wha? Have you ever been to the US? Those are stereotypes, but people in general don't actually believe that...

[Soulflytribe]

Wha? Have you ever been to the US? Those are stereotypes, but people in general don't actually believe that...

I've been to Florida three times when I was kid, to visit the famous theme parks.
But I'm glad I am wrong about that.

[Tainari88]

Wha? Have you ever been to the US? Those are stereotypes, but people in general don't actually believe that...

Dave types do. Lol. How am I the one with the fucked up attitude about culture now?

Rancid, I am laughing my butt off with your comments towards Soulfly.

I point out the unvarnished realities of discrimination in many societies and people get pissed off.

I think Rugoz hit the nail on the head. They need to attack the root problem but they won't because it is far too expensive and demanding to do so. But if they did? Most of these dumb liberal affirmative action useless band aid stuff will fall by the wayside.

Lift the natural advantages of having more money and access to more resources to certain socioeconomic classes and create a level playing field and let the chips fall where they may. It might surprise a lot of the racists to find out the inferior hordes are not so inferior after all if given the right tools and support.

[Rancid]

I point out the unvarnished realities of discrimination in many societies and people get pissed off.

I'm not pissed at all.

How exactly is this unvarnished truth? Do you even have evidence of some sort to prove that X% of Americans believe black people like watermelon more than anyone else? I've never met a person that actually thinks black people like fried chicken and watermelon more than any other ethnic group. In fact, the most you ever hear about this stereotype in America is from comedians making jokes about it. However, that's what comedians do, make jokes using stereotypes about all sorts of people.

EDIT: Anyway, to supply some actual fact to this thread. The reason the fried chicken stereotype exists is because fried food is a southern tradition in the US. It was an easy way for poor folks to make old or non-tender meat taste decent. Guess who made up the majority of poor folks in the Southern US? For better or for worse, that's where it comes from. More out of economic circumstances than some sort of genetic predispositional preference.

I've lived in quite a few places in the US, and amongst many different social classes (recall, I grew up in one of the worst neighborhoods of Miami), now I'm amongst the middle classes, and have a lot of friends from different ethnic backgrounds. I have yet to find anyone that actually believes that stereotype. Racism exists, but on a person to person basis, it's not as rampant as you claim.

If you want to see real ugly racism, go to Eastern Europe.

[Rancid]

To be clear, the only claim I've made is that people in the US generally do not believe those basic stereotypes about black people. That's it, that's all.

Oh, and also that Eastern European racism is way worse than North American racism, and not that it excuses North American racism.

To extrapolate those claims to anything further would be dishonest. I also do not deny that racism doesn't exist in the US.

[Tainari88]

Rancid, just because you 'made it' in your reality does that mean other people fail because they are inferior in some way? No. Most of the people in the Dominican Republic are not dumber than you are. Or have some different genes than you. What made you successful was getting a decent education and having access to a higher education. It also depended on your choices in life. If you decided to take advantage of those opportunities. But, if people like my mother and the Civil Rights movement had never occurred? If you are a black looking Dominican like your parents tease you about being a Haitian adoptee....you would be in deep caca in the pre-Civil rights era of the USA. All those 'doors' that were opened were not opened by the right wing crap thoughts Rancid. They were opened by the Left. A left you don't like. But if it were not for the left attacking discrimination back in the fifties and sixties....I doubt you would be where you are today..

The left does some things very well. For me conservatism is about lack of progress and lack of change. If you think the society today is fine without any change needed at all? Then be a conservative. But the reality is that the only way human societies get better or change for the better is by questioning the status quo and making change come about. So, for me being a conservative in thought and in action is just being stagnant and unchanging and actually thinking that---"If the system works for me? I made it. I am well off and comfortable. No need to change anymore." It is false to think that way. And selfish. I associate false thoughts and selfishness with conservative reality. And since I really don't respect false and selfish people....I really don't like being a conservative and their entire political defense I find not attractive for me in the least. They resist change. And this world is all about change. Nothing remains static and slow and unchanging on planet Earth. The core of life is adaptation, change, flexibility and challenging what is wrong and unjust.

Otherwise what is the point of living? From infancy to adulthood and finally being an old person...dying. It is all a process and it changes all the time. Politics should reflect what is natural and part of the nature and the laws of nature. And that means changing societies to fit the needs of the many. That is how a species survives in this world. Only serving the needs of a few is not natural. Nature doesn't allow species to survive on just a few....it must be useful for the vast majority and adapt itself to fit the needs of a large group. If it does not do that the species becomes extinct!

So, in my political philosophy one must change society if one wants it to adapt to changing conditions. Not preserve something that is not working and is dysfunctional. Otherwise? What purpose does it serve to even have a political system in place if it is not open to change and to adaptation to benefit in a good way the vast majority of humanity? No benefit.

I have not met a conservative person from the Right who can convince me that being conservative is best for the majority of humanity. Most people don't get their needs met and far too many people languish in poverty and in illness and desperation. Change is needed. It always is needed. No time to preserve a world that is not giving a damn about changing the circumstances of many. I hate the idea of saying to oneself, "I am successful. Screw the rest of humanity. The important thing is that this works for me. Who cares if it doesn't work for others?"

That is why I am a socialist Rancid. I don't go for the individualism and the thought that every person is out for themselves only.

Both my parents came from poverty. Both got advanced educations and spoke English perfectly like educated people. Why did they not just praise the USA and the American system? Lol. Many ex-immigrants and migrants do that. I asked them why they did not? The answer was simple, "How are we better than the ones who lived like we did as kids? How is it that those who experienced what we experienced can't get the resources and the education that liberated us and in which we had to fight to get? Why are they abandoned by society? Why? The answer is that the system relies on people becoming selfish and being conformist and accepting that if they made it they are 'special' and anyone can do what the successful do. But, the truth is that the battle to become educated and successful and lift oneself out of poverty when you are fighting racism, classism, lack of money and lack of opportunties is a war that only a few survive. We survived it. But, a lot of good people get killed in the battle. Their dreams and hopes die. Why not fight for a world in which it is not about a few surviving the ugliness of all that poverty and discrimination. Make it so the many can create a new world with cooperation and support for all. "

Never be a conformist. That is the essence of my politics Rancid. It is not about hating America or white people. It has never been about that. It is about having the courage to change what people are used to. And people are used to giving up and accepting that others (the few wealthy) will always have advantages that the poor never get. Do something about it. Because the poor ARE YOU. Every poor person is YOU. Especially if you are a Dominican or a Puerto Rican. The poor are YOU. If you are worthless and not worth effort, time, money and education? Then who is worth it?

Tell me who is worth it?

[Rancid]

Short Answer:
You keep painting me as something I'm not, and I don't appreciate it. You don't really understand me at all, otherwise you wouldn't be saying what you're saying.

Long Answer:
You extrapolated what I said way out into space.

All I said is that the aforementioned stereotypes about blacks aren't generally believed to be true by your typical American. Nothing more.

However, I feel like I have to defend myself a little because you're making a lot of assumptions about me and my general ideological beliefs that simply are not true. Mainly because I don't think you really understand me, which is fine.

Rancid, just because you 'made it' in your reality does that mean other people fail because they are inferior in some way? No. Most of the people in the Dominican Republic are not dumber than you are. Or have some different genes than you.....

I've never suggested this at all, not once. It's like you're acting like I'm Dave or something.

That said, to Dave's defense, gene's can certainly play a role in intelligence which can play a role in future success. However, for most poor folks, it's not because of their gene's it's because of lack of opportunity. I agree with that, and I've NEVER disagreed, so please don't even suggest something like that.

If you think the society today is fine without any change needed at all?

I have never made this claim on these forums, EVER.

Then be a conservative. But the reality is that the only way human societies get better or change for the better is by questioning the status quo and making change come about.

I disagree, being right wing ideologically isn't about keeping the status quo. That's not what I'm about, If you see my posts in other threads, you would clearly understand that. You, like many American Liberals have a bad habit of over distilling things to be "progressive" versus "neocon." This is why you assume that anyone that isn't generally left wing is about keeping the status quo. It's not all your fault that you think this way, it's also because that's how the entire system raises people to think.

I have not met a conservative person from the Right who can convince me that being conservative is best for the majority of humanity

Maybe you just haven't learned about the right kind of conservatism yet. You clearly do not understand the various kinds of right wing philosophies that are out there. Otherwise you wouldn't be saying everything you are saying.

That is why I am a socialist Rancid. I don't go for the individualism and the thought that every person is out for themselves only.

This is one of the big flaws I see in you. You think that conservatism is individualist by default. This is simply false. Hell, I'm not an individualist at ALL. have you not seen my calls for civic national socialism (more or less anyway) on these forums? At my core, I'm very socialistic, I just think we need to change our culture to do it right. It will also require more of a right winged culture than a left winged culture IMO.

Never be a conformist. That is the essence of my politics Rancid.

You know, there's a reason why I'm into the punk rock culture in general.

I'd argue I'm far less a conformist than yourself really. My views are far more outside the norm than yours, but you can't see that because you keep painting me as some sort of neocon. Anyway, arguing about who conforms more should be irrelevant. Also, hard lining on a "never conform" policy is rather dumb. How else would you learn and grow if you choose to always not even accept and more importantly, understand other people's beliefs?

Anyway, my overall point is, you keep painting me as something I'm not, and I don't appreciate it. You don't really understand me at all, otherwise you wouldn't be saying what you're saying.

I don't disagree with much of what you think actually. However, I think I'm much more pragmatic about how we should fix many of societies issues. You tend to interpret that as me being some sort of neocon/republican type, which is false.

[Tainari88]

Rancid, you hardly ever write on this forum outisde of the TLTE. The reason why I wrote that post above was precisely to get an insight on your politics. And I did.

For me, being a conformist is following the essence of status quo stuff. Most posters in PoFo are not the norm and the mainstream anyway. But, you are always throwing hints about not agreeing with many things....lol. I was just fishing to see what you are all about. That I find you a very good human being I have no doubts about. And I think you will be that baby son's best father in the world.

It is not about punk rock, or how you dress or something life that. It is about how you think about the society you live in and how you plan on changing societal issues of importance over time. Over an entire lifetime. And that doesn't happen with big attention grabbing gestures and actions. It happens with your daily everyday choices.

To tell you the truth I always thought you were a lot less conventional than what you seem.

Rancid, so many children of immigrants like you.....just conform and want to forget what it is that made the parents leave their nations. And they should not. Your parents probably left la Republica Dominicana to get better education and opportunities for themselves and for you. My thought is this----why should just the USA have all the resources for educating people and giving them a decent life? That doesn't make sense. If you want to stop the musical chair immigration issues you need to find out why things are not getting better for the many in their home countries and remedy that. Otherwise? What the hell is the point of it all? The USA can't fix the internal issues of hundreds of nation-states and the USA can't take in the entire globe of poor immigrants without opportunities in this world. The answer lies in stopping the idea that only a few nations are capable of providing opportunities and working on solving problems globally so everyone can make a go of it in their own home countries.

People prefer their own home cultures anyway. If you grow up in a place and your family has roots there....it is the place you have loyalties to the strongest anyway. If you are loyal to a nation only because you have a lot of money there and you love it for the materialism only? It is not true nationalism. It is convenience. And many people live in the USA and love the USA because they have a car, a house, make more money and are richer. If they are poor and screwed over and not better off in the USA than back home? They go back home eventually. Why stay here? Lol.

Love for your life experiences are important. And that happens in many places. I don't think love of country and love of your family is restricted to any one society. It is a human experience.

I am sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable Rancid. It is just I really wanted to get your opinion on many things and sometimes one has to fish to find it.

Your wife is a lucky woman Rancid. You have great values. That is hard to find in people. It really is.

[Rancid]

Your parents probably left la Republica Dominicana to get better education and opportunities for themselves and for you. My thought is this----why should just the USA have all the resources for educating people and giving them a decent life? That doesn't make sense. If you want to stop the musical chair immigration issues you need to find out why things are not getting better for the many in their home countries and remedy that. Otherwise? What the hell is the point of it all? The USA can't fix the internal issues of hundreds of nation-states and the USA can't take in the entire globe of poor immigrants without opportunities in this world. The answer lies in stopping the idea that only a few nations are capable of providing opportunities and working on solving problems globally so everyone can make a go of it in their own home countries.

People prefer their own home cultures anyway. If you grow up in a place and your family has roots there....it is the place you have loyalties to the strongest anyway. If you are loyal to a nation only because you have a lot of money there and you love it for the materialism only? It is not true nationalism. It is convenience. And many people live in the USA and love the USA because they have a car, a house, make more money and are richer. If they are poor and screwed over and not better off in the USA than back home? They go back home eventually. Why stay here? Lol.

Love for your life experiences are important. And that happens in many places. I don't think love of country and love of your family is restricted to any one society. It is a human experience.

I am sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable Rancid. It is just I really wanted to get your opinion on many things and sometimes one has to fish to find it.

Your wife is a lucky woman Rancid. You have great values. That is hard to find in people. It really is.

I agree for the most part. Opportunity and prosperity should be something anyone around the world can achieve, it shouldn't be reserved for the people of any particular nation. I think we have different beliefs on how this can be achieved though.

[ebarrongtz]

Smertios... I have read your comments in other forum, about the discussion if Argentina and Brazil are part of the West or not. It's very ironic that in that forum you stated that most of the Brazilian population is white, whilst in this forum you accepted that most of the Brazilian population is brown, mixed people, with european and african heritage. On the other hand, I still believe that there is social, economic and political discrimination against not white people in Brazil.

[Varg]

A week ago affirmative action was accepted by 11-0 votes. A black singer was sued because he created a clip with his fellows wearing a gorilla's fantasy because he was "saying that blacks are monkeys". A teacher was banned from his college because he gave 0 to an african student and said that he should study more because in Brazil things are different. Yes, racism does exist in Brazil . But it favors blacks.

[KlassWar]

I've never met a person that actually thinks black people like fried chicken and watermelon more than any other ethnic group.

Heard 'bout soul food? (traditional Black American cuisine?)

Fried chicken plays a part in it. Many (perhaps most) blacks prefer fried chicken to other kinds of junk food (like burgers or hot dogs) 'cause of cultural reasons.

They don't eat solely or mostly fried chicken, like the stereotype claims, but it is a popular foodstuff among African-Americans.

[Emerald Ocean]

The US is so segregated that they even say that blacks like more watermellon and KFC than the white people.

Nobody "says" American blacks like fried chicken, it is a fact. American restaurant chains have responded to blacks' insatiable appetite for fried chicken by locating fried chicken restaurants all throughout black neighborhoods.

Drive through any majority black area and you will find it littered with Church's Chicken, KFC and Popeye's fried chicken restaurants. In Chicago we had two fatal shootings at Church's Chicken restaurants in a 2-month period!!!

Church's Chicken Shooting: 2 Dead, 5 Wounded In Chicago

[Dr House]

Wha? Have you ever been to the US? Those are stereotypes, but people in general don't actually believe that...

People do believe that, because it's actually factual -- and it's nothing racial; it's just up to their Southern roots, much like the pronounced drawl of the black accent. I hung out a lot with black people back when I was in sales, and they were always going out for fried chicken, and I was like holy shit, seriously ?

[Smertios]

Smertios... I have read your comments in other forum, about the discussion if Argentina and Brazil are part of the West or not. It's very ironic that in that forum you stated that most of the Brazilian population is white, whilst in this forum you accepted that most of the Brazilian population is brown, mixed people, with european and african heritage.

Most of the Brazilian population is white. That is a fact. but most people also come from different ethnic backgrounds. White is a skin color category. You don't have to be 100% European to be white. Finns are white despite the high influx of Asian genes they had. Portuguese are white despite the fact that they had been mixing with Moors since before the Reconquista. Turks are white despite the fact that they had both Asian and African genes in them.

Brazilians are a mixed-race people, no doubt. But so are pretty much every people on Earth. All studies on the subject seem to indicate that Brazilians are on average 70%-80% European. Even studies made exclusively with blacks show a strong European heritage (~40%-50%).

I seriously don't see the irony at all

On the other hand, I still believe that there is social, economic and political discrimination against not white people in Brazil.

And how many times have you been here, exactly?

[KlassWar]

Portuguese are white despite the fact that they had been mixing with Moors since before the Reconquista.

The Portuguese also imported plenty black slaves into Portugal (many more than the Brits or the Spanish). I guess the ones shipped to Portugal didn't remain slaves for many generations, 'cause they ended up mixing with the native Portuguese (at least with portuguese commoners) pretty much at random.