[Freedom]

Everyone is a murderer. Every minute you are not feeding a starving person you are partially responsible for his death by not caring enough

[Inti]

Depends on your definition of a murderer.. Such as invading countries, ordering someones death, giving support to dictators, that is big murderers..

Then you have the ordinary ones that are the ones using guns, knives, bombs or whatever, but one cant be called a murderer for not feeding all the starving people that is by the way, starving because of world politics..

I sleep pretty well though, Im working for an NGO and before that I was doing voluntary work in Mocambique.. One does as much as one can.. And if everyone would do it for lets say, 6 months each at least once in a lifetime, thatd be a hell of an improvement.. Itd change the world..

[Niclaws]

hello.
Well i read the whole topic .very interesting ideas you ve had.
just one thing.
The CIA and right wing plans to stop the union popular started in 1969 when it seemed that salvador allende had quite a good chance to win the elections.
So he was elected with 38 percent,that is true,but in chile,at that time,with some money,it was very easy to manipulate the votes.
Its just like the usa,where JFK s father supposedly bought the votes.
Well in chile it was done, proved,and written in some CIA reports.
so pinochets story is not just about pinochet alone,its about the whole right wing in Chile.They opposed allende.
ANd oh yeah,for our communist friend.They were helped by communists.in 1971 or 72 cant rememner.isnt it ironic?
It seems that some of the extreme left wing associations didnt like the way things were going.....Like they didnt have the share they wanted in the goverment.
And finally
Chile is a mess right now.
Once more,just like the USa,a new aristocracy is forming ;they have the money,money leads education,education to power.(Were talking about both wings here,just take a look at the whos who in chilean politics,they re all kids of ex victims or victims themselves.)
Even if the economy has been making progress,the hole dug between rich and poor is being dug by poor people.Because its the only thing they can do to survive.
Pinochet isnt a hero,is a murderer,and when you hear from a chilean that hes done some good things for chile,ask the person who said that if (s)he is a from a wealthy family or a poor or middle class one
good night
GMT+1
nico

[El Ogo]

i hate pinochet

[Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu]

hey "freedom" take your fascist bullshit out of here.try [ I have not read the forum rules ] or something.

[Freedom]

hey "freedom" take your fascist bullshit out of here.try [ I have not read the forum rules ] or something.

Yawn

Thanks for that Comrade Ceausescu, I mean I really need lessons in what is and is not bullshit from someone with Ceausescu in his name, avatar and signature. I was going to post something here about the build up to the Pinochet coup...but I dont think I will bother because Comrade Ceausescu told me I'm speaking bullshit...I mean when someone who whorships Ceausescu tells you are speaking bullshit you listen dont you? Funny how you didnt even offer a rebutal to anything that has been said, unlike say Gothmog...but I stand corrected oh great one for I was speaking bullshit BAH!

[unbalanced zealot]

Thanks for that Comrade Ceausescu, I mean I really need lessons in what is and is not bullshit from someone with Ceausescu in his name, avatar and signature.

How true ...

For the record - I think any attempt to glorify Pinochet or Ceausescu is
fucked up. Both were total cunts ... I'd pull the trigger myself on them
if I had the opportunity.

No way would I bother debating their mis-understood sides either.

[Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu]

Well "freedom" say what you like about my name,but yours is extremly ironic.My rebutal to all that nonsense that is posted is simply:I'm sorry but I think its wrong to support an ideology that is ultra nationalist,racist,and glorifies war and totalitarianism.

[unbalanced zealot]

Well "freedom" say what you like about my name,but yours is extremly ironic.

[Freedom]

My rebutal to all that nonsense that is posted is simply:I'm sorry but I think its wrong to support an ideology that is ultra nationalist,racist,and glorifies war and totalitarianism.

You posted a rebutal? Where where? show me please. I thought you posted some nonsense trolling flame post...but I guess thats what passes for a rebutal these days...

I'm really not taking a lesson in right and wrong from someone who is obsessed with Ceausescu, the stupidest of all commie leaders.

Well "freedom" say what you like about my name,but yours is extremly ironic

Depends, if I view communism as the opposite to freedom and something to be militantly opposed to, then Pinochet was nothing but a rather reckless solider in the struggle.

In my opinion Freedom is the antithesis to communism, therefore there is no real irony...now shut up and stop your mindless trolling.

[lyingbuddha]

Si nuestra tierra nos pide
Tenemos que ser nosotros
Los que levantemos Chile,
Así es que a poner el hombro.
Vamos a llevar las riendas
De todos nuestros asuntos
Y que de una vez entiendan,
Hombre y mujer todos juntos.
Estribillo
Porque esta vez no se trata
De cambiar un presidente,
Será el pueblo quien construya
Un Chile bien diferente.
Todos vénganse a juntar,
Tenemos la puerta abierta
y la Unidad Popular
Es para todo el que quiera.
Echaremos fuera al yanqui
y su lenguaje siniestro,
Con la Unidad Popular
Ahora somos gobierno.
Estribillo
Porque esta vez no...
La patria se verá grande
Con su tierra libertada,
Porque tenemos la llave
Ahora la cosa marcha.
Ya nadie puede quitarnos
El derecho de ser libres,
Y como seres humanos
Podremos vivir en Chile.
Estribillo
Porque esta vez no...

[Intelligitimate]

For a critique of the types of lies spread about Chile and its economy under Pinochet by fascist supporters like "Freedom", go here:

http://flag.blackened.net/intanark/faq/secC11.html

[Der Freiheitsucher]

Si nuestra tierra nos pide
Tenemos que ser nosotros
Los que levantemos Chile,
Así es que a poner el hombro.
Vamos a llevar las riendas
De todos nuestros asuntos
Y que de una vez entiendan,
Hombre y mujer todos juntos.
Estribillo
Porque esta vez no se trata
De cambiar un presidente,
Será el pueblo quien construya
Un Chile bien diferente.
Todos vénganse a juntar,
Tenemos la puerta abierta
y la Unidad Popular
Es para todo el que quiera.
Echaremos fuera al yanqui
y su lenguaje siniestro,
Con la Unidad Popular
Ahora somos gobierno.
Estribillo
Porque esta vez no...
La patria se verá grande
Con su tierra libertada,
Porque tenemos la llave
Ahora la cosa marcha.
Ya nadie puede quitarnos
El derecho de ser libres,
Y como seres humanos
Podremos vivir en Chile.
Estribillo
Porque esta vez no...

For those who don't understand spanish, I will translate this song.

If our land asks us
It has to be us
Who raise Chile
So lets put our shoulder.
Lets take control
Of all our affairs
So once and for all they understand,
Men and women, all together.
<<Chorus>>
Becuase this time its not about
Changing a president,
It will be the people that constitute,
A different Chile.
All come and gather,
We have the door large open,
And the Popular Unity
Is for everyone who wants it.
We will expell the Yank
and his evil language,
With the Popular Unity
We are now a government.
<<Chorus>>
Because this time its differemt,
The nation will be grand,
With its liberated land,
Because we have the key,
Now we're running forward.
Nobody can take it from us,
The right to be free,
And as human beings
We can live in Chile.
<<Chorus>>
Because this time its different...

[Groovesmith]

Dear Freedom,

I am not sure wether or not to belive this, but it seems mne that you democractic as you are, is in favour of Augusto Pinochet... and even quote him to have 'hero like' tendencies... Then i must assume you belive that adolf Eichman is a hero? correct

A little history for you.
" The junta jailed, tortured, and put to death thousands of Chileans. The dreaded secret police, DINA (Dirección de Inteligencia Nacional) -- with guidance from Colonel Walter Rauff a former nazi who supervised of Jews at Auschwitz--spread its network of terror throughout chile...the junta had at least six concentration camps." (Benjamin Keen A History of latin American page 341)

Sure that is quiet hero like, im sorry I dont see it.
I am a Peruvian and disgracefully only 17 thus was not able to witness the events as they unfolded on the other 11th of September. As I remind you
Pinochet won by a democratic election.... doesnt Freedom (sorry to assume you are American) your country stand by such ideals of democracy. The United States sent out for the Murder of the Chilean Coronel Schiender -- who I may add was extremely democratic and was killed only because he would serve to the chilean consittuion.

I may add Chile was a magnet for all Marxists ( I have no poltical orientation as i said I am but 17) but as kissinger stated "i dont see why we should allow a country to become communist only because its people were irresponsible" Chile had nothing to do with the United States.... but when the Party of Allende nationaliszed the American Copper Mines and other bnig american industries... who knows BAM he is killed. I can see a very similar pattern in CUBA! Was not Castro greeted as a 'hero of anti-communist forces' in the united states by the CIA themselves. Was he not invted to harvard in which he presented a speech and had close relationships with mcgeorge bundy.

And Freedom? Sorry but if indeed you speak for the United States... you should erase that name for the United States in the past century (not suggesting anyone else hasnt) been completely democratic within but has maintaind a complete dictatoriship over the world.
"Batista he is a son of a bitch, but at least he is our son a bitch"
Invasion of Cuba 1898
Concentration Camps set up in Filipines to uphold Aguinaldos 'freedom fighters' After all, isnt that why the Americans went to that war... to liberate those countries from the oppresion of spanish yoke! No wonder Mark Twain went into a violent protest!!!
Mexico in 1916, they prolonged civil war, supplied armaments and sent in a an army which only did worse the the new starting country. Why is that all of LAtin Americas most despied presidents had American full backing?

I personally think Chile is one of the most productive latin American countires because ! of Pinochet. He set the country straight but to speak positively of him.... is sheer folly ! Especially considering what you stand for... 'Freedom' I would suggest you reconsider the meaning of the phrase...

Best Of luck!
Martin Otero

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Chile...... Pinochet ugh...... That jerk he killed so many sigh what a shame Allende the marxist didnt clean the army of the right wing reactionaries..... and kissinger that asshole should be on trial for war crimes...

[QatzelOk]

One of my neighbours had to flee Chile because her husband was an Allende supporting architect. She was a professional singer. Allende was elected [Remember elections?]. Whatever your opinion of socialism or islamism or any other ism, it is irrelevent in this case. You are a voter in Chile's elections only if you are a Chilean citizen.
This story is about the destruction of democracy by the CIA and Pinochet [on Sept 11, I believe]. It is a sad tale of a social experiment that was approved by the people, but snatched away by corporatist America. Sound familiar? Anything new scares the imperial masters. Anyway, latin America will have the last laugh. They'll all be heavily socialist within a decade. So will most of the world. You know, the world that wasn't afraid of the metric system or the Kyoto Protocol? Only afraid of fascist dictators appointed by Washington.

[The One.]

HAHa!Bunch of hypocrites!I can't believe socialists hail Castro as a hero and tackle Augusto Pinochet at the first opportunity. Oh wait,they've been doing that for decades,DOH!.

What Allende did was criminal. Most of the companies he nationalized were virtually owned by american or british

Anyway, latin America will have the last laugh. They'll all be heavily socialist within a decade.So will most of the world.

You know, the world that wasn't afraid of the metric system or the Kyoto Protocol?

So everyone who uses the metric system is socialist?

[Eddier1]

I'll post more articles and if i can find them declassified documents on the matter.[/quote]
************

Spare us the 'screeds', and instead research why Great Britain and Spain (wow the two , finally unified on something, will wonders never cease?) wanted Pinochet to be tried before the War Crimes Tribunal at the Hague. They had sufficient evidence to warrant him being extradicted to Holland to be tried like Milosevich was tried. Some how, some way, and I suspect the U.S was behind this, (how much dough did it cost them, eh) Pinochet was allowed to return to Chile in order to be tried before the Chilean Supreme Court. Well that didn't work out either, because the doctors for Pinochet proved that the 'evil old man' was in no physical nor mental condition to stand trial. To this day, he is considered a vegetable that is withering away.

Pinochet was no socially responsible individual: he was a fascist by nature and inclination, and the crimes he committed are so egregious, when compared to the B.S. you state about Dr. Allende planning a purge of fascist dissidents like Pinochet was. That is all B.S. and you haven't offered one shred of evidence that it was so; rather it is an example probably of manufactured dirty tricks, garnered from the archives of the U.S. Intelligence Agency which it has yet to shred, or which never existed at all except in the big-lying minds of the South American fascists.

AGARRA EL DIA BORICUAS, VENCEREMOS!
SOY PUERTORRIQUENO Y PUNTO; Y REALISTA SOCIAL.
EDDIE R.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

had sanctions placed all over

Only America and Isreal have sanctions on Cuba. If they fail to trade with other countries its the leaders own ignorance. Also for the entire time Pinochet was in office Cuba had the Soviet Union, the Soviet Bloc and other Tin Pot Socialist Dictatorships to trade with.

let's forget all about socialism and equality

Socialism=Horseshit

but if a tin-pot dictator like Pinochet does the same thing, it's okay, as long as the lines of free trade aren't disturbed.

The point was simply this: To de-mistify "Allende" as some sort of "victim" the guy was an ass, to re-write the lefts overblown history of Pinochet as a bad guy.

If you read the article it simply stated this: Of the 2115 most if not all were terrorists plotting against the government...and this is provably so.

Congratulations everybody, we've come to the conclusion that a monetary value 'can' be put on human life, break open the champagne

Anyone who talks about "communism" as good after the last century has no right to complain about "human lives" get real, read a book and learn some history.

'Let's share everything'

Hmmph this is not the place to discuss economics

Before this gets ugly...the point of the two articles, at least the reason for me posting them, is that people all was talk about "Genocide" or "Mas Torture" when speaking of Pinochet and the evidence to back up such sweeping claims is pitiful. While certainly deaths happened during Pinochets reign, many were not taken out under the jurisdiction of any executive order, so Pinochets accountability is slim. They also peak of Allende and his ilk like some sort of mythical figures, when they are not, unless your a completely foolish socialist. They never account the amount of good that Pinochet had done economically for the country and the fact that he handed over power to a centre left leader.

Also worth noting...Allenda won 38% of the electorate when he was voted in...Pinochet was kicked out of office but retained a 48% share of the vote.

I'm just trying to fill in some gaps in the history of this Country and this particular period of Chile.

That is not true japan has sanctions on cuba along with uruguay and poland used to i duno if they do still. Also they do trade with other countries it's just the usa punishes countries like spain who trade with cuba by put embargoes on certain things. The usa wants to help cuban people by putting it into starvation? So pathetic... This is why I hate the USA with a passion.

[Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu]

What Allende did was criminal. Most of the companies he nationalized were virtually owned by american or british

Oh those poor billionares.They were exploiting workers.And also,Allende was democraticly elected.I guess thats the price of your precious democracy that you claim to uphold,some one who you don't like may win. Now,stop trying to say you support "freedom" and "democracy" because you really don't.