[Tainari88]

Last, as a Latino that grew up in Miami. The only time I've ever heard anyone say "La Raza" was from a Mexican. I don't think the idea of "La Raza" is some sort of Universal Hispanic thing...

Ah El Presentao....you should know by now that all of us 'Hispanics' are the same and don't vary. It is easier for the ones who find variety a headache to accept.

I am a Boricua til the end. You quisqueyano miamero YOU!

[Smertios]

I don't believe this is true. As far as I know, only Argentinians and Uruguayans really speak Castillano. The rest of us dirty Hispanics speak spanish that is closer to Andalusia Spanish (Southern Spain) or Canary Island Spanish.

When people say that the language is Castilian, they are referring to the language, not the dialect :P This is a bit difficult to understand, but the idea is that basically, there isn't really a "Spanish" language just like there isn't a "British" language. English, Scots, Welsh, Gaelic etc are all British languages, in that way. Similarly, some people argue that Castilian, Galician, Leonese, Catalan, Basque etc are all Spanish languages, so one shouldn't refer to Castilian as being 'Spanish'. Believe it or not, there is a huge debate about the subject, on whether the language should be called Castilian or Spanish :P

And the huge problem is that Castilian is also the name of the dialect of the Castilian/Spanish language that is spoken in Castela. Like the dialect of the English language spoken in England is called 'English' too sometimes (i.e. English English - lol)...

Overall, I had no idea people actually don't consider Hispanics to be western. I've always assumed so, as we all speak Spanish, and much of our culture is derived from Spanish culture. For fucks sake, many of us are Catholics and Christians!

Because the indigenous component is still strong in most of the continental Hispanic America (except Uruguay, Chile, Argentina and Paraguay to an extent). Like, if you go to youtube right now and research in the culture of each central american nation, you will see a few things. First, the people in all those nations (including Costa Rica, which is normally considered a white country) is mestizo. In the case of Guatemala, the indigenous component is really really strong. In the case of Nicaragua or Panama, it is not strong, but not weak either. And in the case of Costa Rica, it is a bit weaker, but still there (most Costa Ricans have lighter skin, yet the indigenous traits are easily identifiable). The second thing you will notice is that the clothing is very different than what is normally considered western/european. It is clear that the clothing comes basically from the indigenous tradition. The same is valid for the food. And, in the case of Guatemala, the language.

In fact, the impression I had seeing those youtube videos was that those countries were not western at all I saw videos for Mexico, all Central American countries, Colombia, Venezuela, Peru, Ecuador, Bolivia, Paraguay and Chile. The only ones that really looked western to me were Chile and Paraguay. All the others looked quite alien to me... Even Costa Rica, which I expected to be very western, looked indigenous to me... And Paraguay, which I expected to have a strong indigenous component, turned out to be a very "European" nation, pretty much like the rest of the Southern Cone.

The explanation for Paraguay is actually very interesting. The country had a very indigenous mestizo population up to the 1870s, when the Paraguayan War took place (long story short: the Paraguayan dictator was crazy - very similar to Hugo Chavez - and he invaded Brazil and Argentina to conquer more land... in turn, Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay declared war on Paraguay and obviously won). After the war, like 90% of the Paraguayan population was lost. So they started a massive immigration program, which brought lots of Europeans into the country. Those immigrants adopted the native customs. They even started speaking Guarani! But they were white. And that is why the indigenous component in the Paraguayan society isn't as strong as in the rest of the Hispanic World. It is still there, though...

Anyway, I know this contradicts pretty much everything I said so far, so I will research more and think more about it before getting to a final conclusion.

We don't worship the sun.

Hmm, this is a very bad argument, to be honest. First, because the West is not defined as the area where christianity forms a majority. If that was the case, most of the sub-saharan Africa, plus the Philippines and South korea would be considered part of the West.

And second, the language argument isn't very good either. All of Africa speak European languages in a manner similar to how it is in the Hispanic World, with native languages taking a secondary place. Nobody would consider Africa to be western, though...

Last, as a Latino that grew up in Miami. The only time I've ever heard anyone say "La Raza" was from a Mexican. I don't think the idea of "La Raza" is some sort of Universal Hispanic thing...

Well, as I said, I was talking about the colonial concept of "la raza", which was what defined all castes in the Hispanic caste system. The more Spanish you were, the better caste you were part of

The Mexican-American "la raza" ideology came much later than what I was talking about...

[Tainari88]

La Malinche is part of La Raza Smertios. La Malinche was the translator for Hernan Cortez' group. He also wound up having children with her. A married man.

These Spanish conquistadors weren't like the English Plymouth Rock or Jamestown types....no sirree...they had no problems with taking up with people not of their race.

[Social_Critic]

That's Castellano, by the way.

I had my DNA checked and I'm Celt haplotype, was raised in Cuba, Spain and the USA. But I don't consider myself part of the mythical "West" i read about in the Wall Street Journal and the Economist. That West, as far as I can see, is an euphemism for "the USA and group of Nations willing to play poodle to the US empire".

Regarding Latin American culture, it varies. I think people from Argentina can be considered Italians who think they are Germans and behave like Haitians when it comes to running their country properly.

Regarding brain size, I don't have a problem there, my head is huge, so I assume my brain must be huge as well. But I think this is also linked to a large body size (I'm tall). Now, you take my sister. I bet her brain is smaller than mine, but she has the Harvard doctorate I never came close to. So I guess this means, in an anecdotal sort of way, that big headed guys like me aren't necessarily better PhD candidates.

I also read (I think it was Diamond who wrote it) that primitive folk were probably smarter than we are because they had to learn to survive and all we had to do was used the cell phone to dial the pre-recorded number for the pizza delivery service.

[Smertios]

I had my DNA checked and I'm Celt haplotype, was raised in Cuba, Spain and the USA. But I don't consider myself part of the mythical "West" i read about in the Wall Street Journal and the Economist. That West, as far as I can see, is an euphemism for "the USA and group of Nations willing to play poodle to the US empire".

I'm afraid that the Occident isn't defined on political basis, but cultural ones...

The West expanded through Greece and Rome. With Christianization, it expanded to include Celts, Slavs, Balts and Germanic peoples. With the Age of Discovery, the West was expanded to the Americas and Oceania.

There is a chance that Eastern Europe, Latin America and Oceania are building their own separate cultures, but that would take a while to happen...

Regarding Latin American culture, it varies.

I agree. Non-occidental cultural influence predominates in areas like Peru and Bolivia. African influences predominate in Haiti etc. But most of Latin America is either culturally or ethnically occidental..

I think people from Argentina can be considered Italians who think they are Germans and behave like Haitians when it comes to running their country properly.

lol xD Many Argentinians are Mestizos. Probably a lot more than what official statistics claim..

[Social_Critic]

I don't think most people born in Argentina are mestizos. You know, I was reading Richard Adams' book about evoution the other day, and he pointed out to some people if one has a small contribution of African DNA then one is defined as "black". Coming from Cuba, to me black was like real black, and if you were mixed then you were mulato or criollo. And it was no big deal unless you were Americanized and/or happened to be a Cuban trying to go buy a shirt at Sears, which used the American convention, and discrimminated against "black looking" Cubans.

Going back to Argentina, I used to live there. I know you guys think I make up all this stuff, but I really did live there, and I really did come close to being picked up by friendly dudes in Falcons, who could possibly have taken me on a plane ride to nowhere. But that's another tale.

Anyway, I found most Argentinians to have two main defining characteristics: one, they were white european-like but they had the lack of discipline and common sense I expected from most Europeans. And they drove like drunks all the time. To make matters even worse, there were places where everybody drove at night with their lights off. The idea was to get your eyes used to the dark and have the ability to see the lights of any incoming cars when you were about to run a red light. Nobody could tell me in a coherent fashion what would happen when two guys driving with their lights off met at an intersection.

[Smertios]

Oh, no, don't get me wrong. I never said that most Argentinians are Mestizos. I just said that it is probably a lot more than the official statists claim it to be (about 15% of the population, according to them).

But I have read genetic studies that indicate that most Argentinians do have amerindian mtDNA heritage, which makes sense, as the original gauchos were the offspring of spaniards/portuguese and guarani natives. But I don't really consider white-looking Argentinians to be mestizos only because they have distant amerindian ancestors. Otherwise I wouldn't really be able to consider Finns or Estonians Europeans either, for example...

[Rancid]

I saw a lot of Mestizo when I visited Argentina. That place isn't as white as people claim it is.

[Smertios]

I saw a lot of Mestizo when I visited Argentina. That place isn't as white as people claim it is.

Yes, I agree. Countries like Argentina, Chile, Paraguay, Costa Rica, the US etc all claim to be more white than they really are. And Brazil too, in a way, though that has reduced in the last couple decades. I think that the last statistics collected in Brazil are pretty accurate, with about 50% of the population being white, 40% being mixed/brown/"pardo", 9% being black and the remaining 1% being listed as 'others'. A least that is closer to what I see in the streets when I go out...

Argentina claims to be 85% white and 14% mestizo, but they are probably more like 65-70% white 30-35% mestizo, I think..

Not that mestizos are a bad thing, I think miscegenation is amazing

[Corporatios]

By sports, movies, documentaries and the Rio carnival, someone gets the picture that Brazilians are 90% brown/black.

[Social_Critic]

If you saw a lot of mestizos in Argentina you must have been in the North, say Salta or Entrerios. Around BA, the only mestizos were Bolivian illegals. In the South, in Patagonia, there were Chileans, but most of them looked like Andalusians. A huge portion of the people living in Buenos Aires and Cordoba were Italians, recent inmigrants. And I even had a German widow living next door, and I'm sure her husband had been a nazi big wig - they had moved in sometime in the late 40's and had money. I lived close to Garibaldi street, but in a better part of town.

[Smertios]

By sports, movies, documentaries and the Rio carnival, someone gets the picture that Brazilians are 90% brown/black.

Brazil is certainly not heterogenous like that. If you go to the state of Bahia only, you will get the picture that Brazilians are 90% black (really black, not brown). If you go to the state of Rio Grande do Sul, you will get the feeling that Brazilians are 90% white. If you go to São Paulo, you will get the feeling that 10% of Brazilians are Asian, which doesn't make any sense. If you go to Roraima, you will get the feeling that most Brazilians are indians. And if you go to the state of Pará, you will get the feeling that most Brazilians are Mestizos.

Now, if you come to my state (Minas Gerais), which has demographics that are the closest to the overall national ones, you will see about the same proportion of whites and browns (about 40-50% of each), with a visible black minority.

Rio is a complicated case, because there is a social divide in the population. Most movies show slums and police fights. Rio slums (called Favelas, in Brazilian Portuguese - not in real Portuguese, though ) are inhabited by mostly browns and blacks. Other areas of the city, which are the majority, are clearly whiter. Rio (the state) is about 55% white, 30% brown and 10% black. Carnival itself is something that has traditionally been the party of poor people over there, though that has changed a lot in the last few decades.

In Brazil, there is a clear racial divide. There are three main regions in the country: the Amazon, the Northeast and the Center-South. The Amazon has a predominantly Mestizo population (though we use the term 'Caboclo', not mestizo, in Portuguese), with very important white and indigenous minorities. The Northeast has a clear Mulatto/Black majority in the coast and a white (though those whites have indigenous heritage as well) majority in the inner areas. And the Center South is predominantly white, with the white-brown statistics ranging from 80%-10% in states like Rio Grande do Sul and Santa Catarina to 50%-45% in states like Minas Gerais and Goiás.

Since the Center-South holds the majority of the Brazilian population (up to 60% of the total population), Brazil clearly has a white majority. But even Brazilian whites have indigenous and black DNA. On average, a Brazilian is 70% European, 20% African and 10% Amerindian, though those statistics change a lot depending on the region, obviously. Most people that are classified as white have over 75% European ancestry, while most people classified as brown have about 60-70% European ancestry. And even people classified as Blacks in Brazil have about 50-60% European ancestry, except for those blacks that live in settlements called Quilombos (areas settled by runaway slaves during colonial times), in which people can be up to 90% African.

As for sports, if you go by that, you will also get that the French population is composed solely by blacks :P

If you saw a lot of mestizos in Argentina you must have been in the North, say Salta or Entrerios. Around BA, the only mestizos were Bolivian illegals. In the South, in Patagonia, there were Chileans, but most of them looked like Andalusians. A huge portion of the people living in Buenos Aires and Cordoba were Italians, recent inmigrants. And I even had a German widow living next door, and I'm sure her husband had been a nazi big wig - they had moved in sometime in the late 40's and had money. I lived close to Garibaldi street, but in a better part of town.

The area around Buenos Aires is probably up to 80% white, quite similarly to Uruguay or the South of Brazil. The rest of the country has a visible Mestizo minority, that could compose up to 25% of the population, maybe. Though Mestizos in Argentina (except for Bolivian immigrants) have less indigenous heritage than Mestizos from elsewhere in Latin America. Keep in mind that not all Argentinians are gauchos, despite the fact that their government likes to export that idea. Quite similar to Brazil, actually. Most Brazilians aren't Samba lovers like they pretend us to be, taking only Rio as a reference.

As for Chile, southern Chileans are quite white, as those areas were settles mostly by European immigrants who didn't mate with the Mapuche people much. Northern Chile is clearly majorly Mestizo, though...

[Quantum]

By sports, movies, documentaries and the Rio carnival, someone gets the picture that Brazilians are 90% brown/black.

If you look at Brazilian actress and models, you would think that Brazilians were a Germanic people, since many come from Southern Brazil, which received high numbers of German immigrants. Movies like City of God tends to distort the image of Brazil and one should travel there if they wish to see the real picture of that country.